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View Full Version : Discrimination or not?



Nevada
03-10-2004, 04:10 PM
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/09/1078594364603.html

Rose N. Crantz
03-10-2004, 04:31 PM
"They talk about casting spells and they brought with them, I believe, a small cauldron. I think they behaved as though they are witches," said Tony Green, owner of the Greenwood Hotel in North Sydney.

And...that's a bad thing. -sigh- Some people's kids, eh?

Psyche
03-10-2004, 05:27 PM
"They talk about casting spells and they brought with them, I believe, a small cauldron. I think they behaved as though they are witches," said Tony Green, owner of the Greenwood Hotel in North Sydney.

"People found their behaviour strange and threatening . . . casting spells on bars in the hotel or clearing bars with certain spells."

A business owner has to right to refuse service to anyone, especially if that person or group are doing things that infringe on the other guests comfort levels. 'If' they brought cauldrons and 'if' they were discussing spells and such in a loud manor, other guests might feel threatened and intimidated.

They were asked to hire a private room and they refused. The fact that they were offered the opportunity to hire that private room versus just being asked to take their meetings elsewhere is a very clear indication to me that the owner/manager were trying to be as accomidating as possible, to ALL of their guests.

No descrimination.

Nevada
03-10-2004, 07:20 PM
okay playing devils advocate....was the bible group asked to lower their voices or get a private room? As a non christian sometimes the bible thumpers and their righteousness annoys me and they can get loud. Yes, if given the opp. they probably should have taken a private room, but could they afford too? Also I strongly discourage people bringing altar items into public areas. But, if you can bring a big whomping cross and bible to any public area why can't a pagan bring a similar religious item

Emrld
03-12-2004, 12:54 PM
Mainly because of sociatal acceptance. In this country what is considered the "norm" is welcome in public. I am not saying it is right or wrong it is just the way it is. This country was founded by people who wanted religous freedom and majority of them came to this country with at least one bible. Hotel rooms and homes across the country come equiped with their standard issue bible. A bible is not considered threatening because most people understand what it is even if they do no believe.
Other religions on the other hand can easily be missunderstood. Therefore considered in the worst possible scenario making there "items" are not as welcome in public.

Emrld
03-12-2004, 12:55 PM
Mainly because of sociatal acceptance. In this country what is considered the "norm" is welcome in public. I am not saying it is right or wrong it is just the way it is. This country was founded by people who wanted religous freedom and majority of them came to this country with at least one bible. Hotel rooms and homes across the country come equiped with their standard issue bible. A bible is not considered threatening because most people understand what it is even if they do no believe.
Other religions on the other hand can easily be missunderstood. Therefore considered in the worst possible scenario making there "items" are not as welcome in public.

Nevada
03-12-2004, 01:09 PM
That proves what I have always said...America...Land of the Free" is the biggest oxymoron I have ever heard. Your free only as long as you act and believe the same as the majority....I wonder if my ancestors had any concept that this is what they fought and died for?

Emrld
03-12-2004, 01:17 PM
No one is ever totally and completely free. However compared to several other countries we have a ton more freedom. At least you got to pick your husband. At least you have all of your reproductive body parts. OK so not every one sees eye to eye with you on religion. And you have to pay taxes to keep the country running (ha ha ha) But you are alive you have a choice to work or not and what work you do. You have the ability to go to Faire you even have the ability to voice your opinion on this web site. You have Freedom of Choice. Every choice you make has a cost be it a positive or negative cost. Still it is a Freedom of Choice.

Nevada
03-12-2004, 02:39 PM
Freedom of choice as long as I dont practice it in public without fear of being denied service or courtesies people of mainstreams faiths are able to have....I am VERY well aware of what freedom I have here..once again if you will look at previous threads I have ALWAYS stated how relieved I am I was born in America and just to add to this I also dont just piss and moan about it I have been involved in several activities and organizations that strive for religious freedom for all faiths and also womens rights groups intl and domestic.

Emrld
03-12-2004, 02:59 PM
You are choosing to let society dictate what you are allowed to do in public.
I never said you were not aware of all of your freedom's I was just pointing some of them out.
All I did was respond to your posting that came across as slightly (stress on the word slightly) mocking of the freedom's you do have.
Basically you have the right to do or say what you want as long as it does not harm etc. anyone else. You have to be yourself and not worry about what others think, say, or do. That is part of the choice.
I don't have the time nor the intrest in going back and reading every thread of every wench. I only respond to what I am currently reading.
I think a lot of sevice and curtesies are given in this world based on how you treat a person and present yourself. Majority of the time your religion is not known and therfore your treatment is not based on that unless you make an issue out of it.

Nevada
03-12-2004, 03:50 PM
And as I pointed out I CHOOSE to work within the system so that all faiths get equal and fair acknowledgement without fear or reprisals from vendors, employment, or political parties. As to being mocking...I was being sarcastic because as I stated if you are mainstream you don't run into the situations non christians do. I have a cousin in law who is Hindu and a emergency pediatric surgeon...ever since 9/11 he and my cousin and their kids have faced constant situations of discrimination because he doesnt look american nor is he christian. We wont get into the name calling they have been subjected to. As to the previous threads comment...it is sometimes helpful to see were a person stands before you begin (and maybe and I my coworkers took this wrong) lecturing someone. I don't generally make my religion known as I came close to losing a job because of it in the past and have had other non christians who have lost their jobs because of their faith or non faith. Those who need to know...know....I recently discovered that a mgr transferred me to another group last year because she discovered I was pagan and she wasn't comfortable working with me any longer. This was a person who up to that point raved about my job performance and how proud she was to have me on her team to me to anyone that would listen. I dont even have any pagan items up at work. She discovered when she noticed my discrete pentacle ring my husband gave me when we first got together. When I explained what it was less than a month later I was on another team. This also explains why she began treating me differently afterwards. And I make a point of not discussing my religion at the work place.

Emrld
03-12-2004, 04:00 PM
I did not consider what I wrote to be lecturing. I am sorry if it came across that way. I am a very blunt person and try to get to the point. I have friends who have been and are overseas, this causes me to fly to the top of my soapbox when "freedom" comes into play.

As to the previous threads comment...it is sometimes helpful to see were a person stands before you begin (and maybe and I my coworkers took this wrong) lecturing someone
Are your co-workers reading this site? Or do you happen to work with other wenches?
I also consider every topic a "new" discussion and not necessarly linked to previous conversations. I have only been here for less than one year and have posted less than 100 times. It really would take a lot of time to always know where someone had come from in the past.

Emrld
03-12-2004, 04:03 PM
One more thing religion is protected under EEO. You do have grounds to take action if a job is lost or loss of money from a transfer based on religious beliefs. The tricky part of course is proving it.
I only had a boss who had problems with my weight and that is not a protected class.

Nevada
03-12-2004, 05:18 PM
My baby cousin is a marine and we just heard he is to be deployed from Iwo Jima to the middle east...A very dear and old friend is in the British Armed Forces and has already been there once and may be sent back this next go round. I was extremely worried when we didnt hear from him for over 2 months...turns out they were on a complete silence run. I am very patriotic...my family has served since the American Revolution and I grew up around bases and worked for the Govt. for almost 4 years...3 1/2 with the veterans admin in the hospital division....I distinctly remember the fall of Saigon due my ex step dad having served 2 tours in Vietnam and made sure we watched it all...my father in law served 2-3 tours in Vietnam as well. I am a very direct person as well. Probably because of the Vets we had stay with us after the nasty welcome back they got when they returned made me even more determined that the freedoms they fought for are distributed equally not to just the righteous mainstream. The reason I posted the article originally was so that other pagans and non pagans could take a look at the fine line between vendors right to serve and using that as an excuse for discrimination...it's a very grey area. I dont know if you remember but at European Crossroads in Dallas there used to be several pagan shops, but after new mgt came in one of the principals was overheard to comment if it was the last thing she did she was going to get all the "witches" out of there...no mention these were paying tenants who brought business to the area when there was none. Yes the pagans in the article were asked to get a private room...but seriously how many pagans have that kind of money? and there was no mention that the christians were asked to do the same. My other half is a loud pagan...more than once I have elbowed him to let him know sometimes there is a time and a place...sometimes there isnt. Its a matter of mutual respect...unfortunately as a non christian I give it more than I see it

'Nise
03-12-2004, 08:44 PM
Ok there is a big issue that is being overlooked here. A place of business is not a public place. If a bible group wanted to practice in your living room do you have the right to say no? Your (general you) personal right ends at the bridge of my nose. If it was adversly effecting their business (and customer complaints are adverse) then he had every right to ask them to leave. He did not have to ask them if they wanted a private room. As a manager I would have done the same thing. And I am a pagan and active in Pagan rights and awarness.
Dona nobis pacem
Love
'Nise

Nevada
03-12-2004, 09:12 PM
On the flip side I have complained to mgt when a bible study group not only got loud but began passing out pamphlets and the mgrs reaction was...but their christians do you have a problem with God? I tried to explain I had a problem with anyone interrupting my meal and asking if we had been born again yet. Basically he did nothing. And no we don't go back there anymore. And as I said, I don't think they should have taken altar items with them, thats just asking for trouble, and it is generally safer to keep crafte talk in private places. But as long as society in general feels threatened or uncomfortable by any religion but christianity no other religion can comfortably in public express their views. So where do we start standing up and showing that even though we may be diff we still should be able to discuss our religion anywhere we please...except of course other religious establishments. Its not like we are discussing fav sex positions in IHOP...which I was subjected to by a group a couple of which were wearing crosses btw....very detailed preferences that almost put me off my pancakes. Yes we asked them to lower their voices and that lasted about 5 min accompanied by some dirty looks.

'Nise
03-13-2004, 01:53 AM
If it is a larger corporation then go up the chain. If it's a private owned business then you need to let your money do the talking and don't go back. The above is a good example of bad customer service but that isn't a crime.
Love 'Nise