Fur (VERY GRAPHIC)

[webmistress]

You know I'm no PETA freak, but this has to be one of the most horrible things I have ever seen. If you know anyone who buys fur, please consider sending this to them. If this doesn't change their mind, nothing will. I have just finally stopped bawling. Okay, I haven't actually stopped, but its slowing down at least. It is unusual for me to get that upset about these things, since I have to deal with animal cruelty every day - but this is just.. indescribable.

WARNING: This is EXTREMELY graphic. Like REALLY graphic. If you can make yourself watch it, have Kleenex handy.

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=fur_farm&int=breaking_enews

"PETA warns shoppers that they are contributing to some of the worst cruelty to animals ever witnessed—animals still alive and moving after being skinned in China for export fur. A year-long undercover investigation captured video footage of fur farmers in China swinging raccoons and foxes by their hind legs and smashing their heads onto the ground—breaking the animals’ necks or backs but leaving them fully conscious, panting, and blinking as they are skinned alive. "

Me, I'm going to go throw up now.

[Lucy]

:shock: :wah: :cuss:

I didn't even get through 10 seconds of it...I had to stop. It was one of those things that I will never un-see...

when she said graphic, she meant it ladies. I am honestly be mentally disturbed about this. This is one gal whos viking side will be furless.

Snipe, I honestly don't know how you were able to watch it...

[webmistress]

Lucy - I'm not surprised you couldn't get through it all - most people I have sent this to couldn't either. And trust me, it only gets worse after the first 10 seconds. :(

I have seen some pretty horrible stuff, with my organization. The times that people have videotaped their animal cruelty to "enjoy" it later - I have seen all of those videos, unedited. This cliip was as bad - if not worse actually - than all of those. I'm still just completely horrified.

I hope that everyone considers this the next time they consider buying anything with fur on it.

I do not support the fur industry, and I never have - but this goes way beyond. Why these people couldn't have taken the 2 seconds to actually KILL these animals before removing their skin, I simply cannot comprehend. If you insist on killing animals solely for their fur, could you not at least be humane about it?

*still feeling sick*

[Brigid]

To be perfectly honest, I don't have a very high opinion of PETA and the animal rights people, when i worked as a trainer for Great Cats of the World, I was in washington state at a fair (we did educational shows, and photos with the babies to raise money for the center) I had a group of them try to release the cats. Now tell me what good is it going to do to let a large carnivore loose thru yakima washington. ?? It was beyond me, particularly because a large population of the cats that the center has comes from rescues, that can't be release due to thier contact with humans.

And if it like some of the other PETA videos that i have seen they only showed what they wanted to be seen. I couldn't get it to load on my computer. But also most of the videos they put out in regards to the fur trade are not normally the sanctioned trade.

[webmistress]

I understand that - and I am not asking anyone to become a PETA member because of this. I'm simply asking that people look at it.

Is every single fur distributor like this? No, I would imagine not - but since there is no way to know where the fur is coming from, I think its worth paying attention to anyway.

In business, LOTS of things come from unsanctioned sources. As long as no one gets caught, they keep doing it - and that is the point of exposing situations like this.

I work with PETA every day - and I don't approve of many of the things they do - but that also doesn't mean I'm going to discount everything they do simply because its them.

[Jessa]

Its horrible that people would do this. How can they even do it? I wonder how they treat people, if they can be so cruel to feeling animals.

In my view, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with wearing fur. An animal can be happy and well cared for duing its life, and killed quickly and humanely when its time has come. What's wrong are people who torture and abuse animals - for any reason.

[daBaroness]

Several points ... the Chinese must have cast-iron stomachs and a very firm belief that animals feel no pain. I remember seeing a program on PBS a number of years ago that showed the English commentator as the guest of honor at a special dinner. This dinner featured a regional delicacy - money brains. OK - monkey brains ... ick, but OK. NOT OK - seems the dinner not only featured monkey brains as the food, but also featured the ritual involved in consuming monkey brains ... LIVE monkey brains. The poor creature was brought to a special dining table in which the live monkey was inserted through a hole so its head was above the table, and the body, from the neck down, suspended under the table - much like horizontal stocks.

I don't remember if the monkey was somehow sedated - but using special utensils, the creature's head was split open, skullbone removed and brains scooped out with razor-sharp spoon-like objects and eaten like osyters on the half-shell. Needless to say, the Englishman was trying not to gag into his boots thus insulting his Chinese hosts, while they merrily chatted and laughed away while noshing on their live entree.

Now I don't have a particular problem eating some meat or even wearing some fur (I have several pelts that are were natural death wild animal fur), but there's no way I'd wear fur taken live from the wild or treated inhumanely in captivity which would absolutely preclude anything like seal, wild cats and other exotics, bear, etc. And while I like my steaks medium rare, eating anything live, except veggies, just makes me ill. Besides, isn't that why we discovered fire?

I've always believed in different strokes for different folks, but in this case I think those folks are just too different and all the way wrong.

[Magdalene]

To be perfectly honest, I don't have a very high opinion of PETA and the animal rights people, when i worked as a trainer for Great Cats of the World, I was in washington state at a fair (we did educational shows, and photos with the babies to raise money for the center) I had a group of them try to release the cats. Now tell me what good is it going to do to let a large carnivore loose thru yakima washington. ?? It was beyond me, particularly because a large population of the cats that the center has comes from rescues, that can't be release due to thier contact with humans.

And if it like some of the other PETA videos that i have seen they only showed what they wanted to be seen. I couldn't get it to load on my computer. But also most of the videos they put out in regards to the fur trade are not normally the sanctioned trade.

We used to have a Big Cat show here at the Colorado faire--same thing, the animals were rescues and couldn't take care of themselves for various reasons, but a so-called 'animal-rights' group were threatening to do the same thing--turn the cats loose in the wilds of Colorado.

I didn't watch the video (I admit to not having a good stomach for those things), and I agree that animals should be treated humanely, but I don't see a problem with the wearing of fur. I have to be honest....most of us wear Pendragon bodices, which are leather, or wear boots that are leather. It's still an animal's skin, so I honestly can't see why fur is somehow bad.

But they should be put down quietly and humanely, not bashed against stones and skinned alive.

[Lucy]

Good point Baroness. So how do I find natural death pelts? (ugh...that just sounds kinda creepy) I do own a fur coat myself...but it's very old and has been passed down through my family...heck I don't even know what kind of fur it is. I do admit that I like fur, and I think that if it's already a coat then whether I refuse to wear it or not does not save what it was made from. But on the other hand, I suppose that if one person buys it then passes it along, they will just buy a different one and so on and so forth making the demand still real. I've always been on the fence about this issue... As I stated in my first response post, that peticular type of means of obtaining animal fur is disgusting and I would never buy from a fur trader overseas...heck I probably will never buy a new fur...(I'm talking ebay baby!). I guess I'm really just babbling now to justify my owning fur and yet feeling disgusted by the issue presented to me... there's nothing like a bit of guilt to end a busy day huh?

[Phoenix McHeit]

Well Luce... the leather shop I worked for this past PARF season has pelts - and they come from a preserve where the animals are allowed to live out their natural lives, and once that time is over, the pelts are harvested and put to use. If you want, I can see abut putting you in touch with them.

I watched the entire video - many tissues later I asked myself why I didn't just turn the damned thing off. But turning it off doesn't make it stop happening....

Methinks I'm gonna seek out my Rogue for a hug.

[Artos O'Dalriada]

ok, that was totally sick, and I mean the people in that video had to be...Who the hell in their right mind with any decency could treat an animal that way? I love animals myself, probably more than i like most people, and I can't fathom that kind of cruelty. I mean, how would those folks like it if a friggin kodiak came up and slammed them off a rock a few times, and then skinned them? Not much I'd wager. So what gives them the right. Nautre and her children should be respected, not butchered like that.

[biker]

artos, agreed, I was raised on a farm and have no problem with killing of animals, but this is just too cruel...

[Lady Sarah]

I had to turn it off after watching the racoon struggle to get away and the pelt was literally ripped....off.....

ahem... sorry. I see nothing wrong with wearing furs. Our ancestors have been doing so for years. But, I find the cruelty in that video despicable. I say as long as you know where your fur came from, go ahead and wear it.

[Ysobelle]

So is there anything we can do? Do we know where the furs are going? Any kind of activism?

I won't watch it. I also won't wear the fur/pelt of anything I/my animals won't eat. They may be odd standards, but they're at least my own. Just hearing y'all talk about this is pretty much over the top for me. Just give me something to do about it! I see people flaunting their exotic fur coats again, after so many years of designers and models and consumers refusing to use or wear fur-- and it saddens and disgusts me.

I'm not a PETA supporter on the whole, but...gah.

I have no problem wiwth the fur industry IF they humanely put the animals down and use their pealts as well as the rest of their bodies for anything (fertalizer, food, whatever).

I find it funny how many people are willing to put the fur industry down as a whole who will be more then willing to eat meat or wear leather.

If anyone wants an eye opening experience, read the book Dead Meat. It is a comic book of sorts about the ins and outs of the meat industry in the US (comic book because the person writing it was not allowed to bring a camera into the slaughter houses).

If animals are put down humanely for any use, I have no problem with it. I prefer the animals remais after harvest are used for other reasons and not simply discarded into a dump to take up eternal space (as it takes an eternity for ANYTHING to decompose in the landfills).

I see no difference in the fur industry and other meat industries IF done properly.

Now, that being said, there are meat industry folks who inhumanly treat the meat or leather animals as bad as those in china were treated in the video.

What is the difference if I buy my fur to wear at faire or buy my leather?
People seem more willing to group fur industry into a huge lump as "if you wear fur, it is cruel"
Well having been in a veal farm first hand, I can say, I think it was much worse then the mink farm I once saw.

Now I am not saying any of them are right or one is worse then the other, but just wonder how some folks can jump on one industry when so much of the leathers worn around faires are not exactly humane either (well then again, I guess after driving by so many slaughter house/farms in the midwest and seeing those poor cows living entire lives stnading shoulder to shoulder with their death mater, never to move more then the distance from the birthing area to their feeding area to the long walk into the slaughter (hey if they are lucky they get to go on a cramped train and/or truck ride somewhere else to die).

Just one of those things.

I would never buy a fur, but I would never turn down my mom, gram, or aunts vintage furs that will be passed on to me one day.
I also eat meat.
I am trying to eat more poultry as opposed to red meats (more of a health thing), but the options are more inexpensive for free range and organic chickens then beef or pork. I try to do what I can when I can.
I also prefer to now buy my beef from a local farm that we recently found out about. Friends of my parents' son raise organic free range cows. We can buy sections very cheap and know where it came from how it is put down and what goes into it before hand. Shoot, I can even go feed it myself if I want.
It does make a difference to me, knowing where my food comes from and as I have grown up and as my daughter has gotten bigger, I find these things meaning a lot to me.
We are even joing an organic co-op this summer for all our friuts and veggies. We know where, who and what or veggies are grown with.
This makes me feel good about the things I put in to my body (for the most part)
Don't misjudge, I still eat junk food (hell, I cannot get enough of hooters wings and grilled cheese) and enjoy it, but I am trying to do better for myself, my family and my planet...

sorry, no idea why I ran on like that...

Muffin

[saphoenixsilver]

I personally didn't even watch the video, I couldn't bring myself to, so I just read what y'all said. I too, eat meat, and do not have a problem with fur if the animal was put down humanely and the entire animal was used, but unfortunatly there are some sick people out there. I cannot fathom a person ripping the skin off a living animal, nor can I understand how a person can eat or wear something they've met, I'm happy never seeing the animal that provided my dinner up close and personal. The best way to deal with this situation, is IF you chose to wear fur, make sure you can trace it back to where it came from. A good buisness should be able to do that, it's the proffesional thing to do. The thing with a video like this is that people see it and it makes them think that this is the way all fur is harvested, and it's not. I've noticed people have brought up natural death pelts and I feel that that is fine, and would like more info about that kind of thing if anyone would be willing to send me it. What needs to happen is education about the subject. Just my opinion, I'm a big fan of people being educated about stuff like this, because otherwise we're judging people by sterotype which is not right. Ok, I gonna get off the "educate people darn it" soapbox now

[Ysobelle]

I eat beef. I drink milk. Therefore, I'll wear and use leather. I do not, however, think I've ever had a silver fox sandwich, nor mink stew, so they're right off my list.

So no, I don't think I'm being hypocritical. I'm an omnivore-- killing an animal and using all of its parts is something I accept, if, again, it's done humanely. But taking a life just so you can look pretty? That I have a problem with.


The only silver fox I have is on my mug. I've always wanted a coat, but I think the fox needs it more.

[Megan Campbell of Feather]

:cuss: :censored:

OMG... OMG.... OMG!!! I am appalled, crying and disgusted.

I have never ever in my life seen something so horrible. I am sick to my stomach.

I am sorry to sound prejudiced but what is expected from this people, they aren’t the brightest or most animal friendly. They pillage the seas, the kill animals without conscience for virility, why do I expect anything different for the fur trade. The fur trade is a dirty secret of animal abuse. PETA has investigated the killing of Mink and Foxes in the US and I would be afraid that some of that still goes on today. People need to think about that when they wear fur. You can keep your fur coats, stoles and collars, I’ll wear wool, at least no sheep give their life for that.

All I could say is what if foxes and raccoons ran the world and wore people skin coats. We as human beings would reconsider so many cruel things we do to animals.

As a caring animal loving human being, I am consciously hurt by that, hurt for those poor animals hurt for those folks ignorance.

[KissMeKate]

I can't watch it either - mostly because I'm at work and also because I would feel sick for a very long time.

There is cruelty in every industry if it's left in the control of people willing to exploit anything for money. Chicken farms, pig farms, agricultural farms (between the pesticides, herbicides, and poisons and traps), puppy mills, etc. There are also industries which treat everything with the respect and kindness it deserves. But each person has to decide what they are willing to do to try to stop such practices. [And I also prefer not to have large animals running around in cities or previously-penned animals running around in the wild]

My dad hunts with his friends, usually only elk and mule deer, in the high Rockies. Not the common tree-stand kind of hunting I usually see in Wisconsin (no offense), but hiking up and down the mountains until you find the herd of animals you have licenses for [one year they had male and female elk, and male deer licenses, and in 5 days only saw does!]. We use nearly every part (I've never figured out how to make sinew, and I'm not sure I want to learn) and the hide goes out for tanning. We've even processed half an elk in our home kitchen (don't really want to do that again). But I don't condone sport hunting of ANY kind, and think that is unusually cruel.

I do have some fur. I have the scrap fur from one of my grandmothers stoles, and my mom still has an antique beaver fur stole (at least I think it's beaver). I agree with the posts above, these are more like heirloom pieces. I also have some bunny pelts and other deer hides.

I try to shop at the organic stores, eat minimally processed food, and take very good care of my pets. But it is more expensive to do that, up to 4 times as expensive, but I do feel better about what I eat and how I feel.

I'm a moderate kind of gal, so I just can't really understand or agree with either the extremes of activists such as PETA or the industries that are so cruel such as the fur place mentioned.

Perhaps that video link needs to be forwarded to our government representatives with a plea to create laws that will have to research where fur that comes into our country is produced and to make sure it is from humane treatment. After all, it worked with the tuna industry!

[aspen]

When I was working pony rides, people were constantly harrassing us for our perceived "cruelty". They'd walk (or drive) by and frown, or yell something unintelligible, or call the Humane Society or the cops on us because of those poor, abused ponies.

The cops, of course, would look around the office until they saw Deputy Dan, who's got horses of his own and (presumably a clue). Deputy Dan would come out, saunter up, and drawl (they always drawl-- it's a cowboy thing), "It's nice to see them working for a change!"

Then Deputy Dan would apologize, and say there was a complaint, and make sure we had water and food, and that nobody was in any obvious distress, and thank us and get on with his day.

The Humane Society would ususally send out a couple of earnest young women in a van with paw prints painted on the side. Now let me tell you about the kind of earnest young woman that often volunteers at the local Humane Society. She's young, as I mentioned, and a wee bit sheltered, and got into the game in order to play with all the cute kittens and puppies before they get adopted. She knows nothing, and I mean nothing about livestock.

So she'd pull up in her van, and get out, all huffy and ready to bring down the wrath of the bunny-hugger on us, and we'd carefully explain that the ponies did have water, and they weren't thirsty, and look, there's gatorade powder in the water, and they get a lunch break too (I say too, but I never got a lunch break; had to eat on my feet), and here's how to tell if a pony is dehydrated, and here's how to tell if a pony's feet are healthy, and so on and so forth. And the earnest young woman would get back in her van, somewhat wiser, and go back to play with the cute puppies and kittens some more.

All because the original bless-their-hearts, animal-lovin' people couldn't be arsed to stop by and ask a few questions and scratch a few withers and maybe pay a buck or two so their kiddies could have a ride, for the love of Mike.

I partly blame animal-welfare extremists (the kind that say that keeping pets is slavery-- can they really love animals if they want to turn them all outside to starve?) because their propaganda only confuses the issue.

Aspen

[Eric McTavish]

1st... I haven’t watched the vid...some thing you can't unwatch I have seen enough cruelty in my life to both humans and animals to last me.. so thanks, but no thanks.

2nd... I’ve had my run-ins with PETA from both the inside and out I consider them the Earth First of animal rights... and that is not a good thing.

3rd...Fur...I really don’t think (with the quality of fake fur today) that anyone really needs to have real fur, do I believe the cruelty on the vid (that I haven’t seen but can guess at form everyone’s comments) is common in the furrier industry? No but it is horrific that it still takes place. However fur from natural death (Lucy, btw, all the pelts form the Ohio Vikings are natural death pelts I asked last season) I have no problem with.

4th...Hunting don’t get me started...All I know is in my area without hunting we have starving deer dieing in the streets, and last year hunters in my area gave 3500 lbs of venison to feed the hungry posts throughout the state.

All in all cruelty to animals is a horrific thing personally someone would be taking their safety in their hand to do such a thing in my presence.

[Megan Campbell of Feather]

I am sorry Aspen, but that is comparing apples to oranges.

Did you watch the video? Those poor animals were alive... they were skinned alive, left in a heap of lethargic pain. My God above, there is a huge difference between a pony ride and skinning an animal alive. We are talking true cruelty, cruelty from ignorance, clearly those people don’t understand the pain the animals are enduring. We aren’t talking walking around in a circle carrying children, we are seeing true cruelty from being beaten and skinned alive, left for dead. Sweet Jesus, watch and have your mind changed. If you can get to the point where the fox is looking with black fur around his eyes… that animal is wishing it were dead. I am sure no fed, watered and walked pony feels that pain, my question is where is your compassion? Your ability to empathize with what is and had happened? What you have encountered from Depty Dawg is one thing this is a whole different ball of wax!

I am a self-confessed animal lover; I feel they have no voice and we, as compassionate humans need to stand up for them. I felt the need to take a stand, and sent it to a friend who works in Sue Myrick’s office. If we all stand for animals with no voice, this type of cruelty will cease and we will be awareness to third world countries about animal feelings.

I am heart broken... simply heart broken. :(

[Pathos]

I have a long standing hatred for PETA that goes back many years. It's mostly a philosophical problem (Simple fact: you CAN NOT feed all the people in the world thru agriculture alone. Telling people they can't eat meat is pure decadent arrogence...plain and simple.).

That having been said...I've also never been crazy about fur and thankfully non of the women I've dated over the years were either. However...if I went to Alaska and lived with some Eskimos for awhile...I'd wear fur because I know those people use every single part of that animal to benefit their families.

But fur as a symbol of wealth or prestige...who cares. :roll:

[Dmitri]

Thanks Alison...

I use leather... Leather is a by product. I use fur on occassion and will add fur that is supplied by the customer with eth following exceptions.

I will never use wolf pelts (a karma thing)

And if a person comes to me with the pelt of an endangered species, I will take down all info for the order and then promptly call the EPA.

I have hunted, I have killed... Both for meat and for controlling/removal. I have had to pull to the side of the road and put a hit animal out of it's misery... I do believe that we are on the TOP of the food chain but that we are all here and deserve respect.

This was the by far most disgusting thing I have every seen. I have no problem with the fur industry (save the waste), but this was cruelty for pleasure. I have to ask why? WHY skin them alive? Why? I understand the whys of skinning a freshly deceased animal, having done it many times. But these people did this with no regard for the pain and suffering of the animal...

The skinless raccoon moving around in a a pile and blinking nearly made me puke.

For the first time I find myself on the side of PETA with this one... That makes me nauseous as well.

If anyone can find out what suppliers use this farm I would greatly appreciate it. I doubt that many of my suppliers would tolerate such abuse. (most are native american recreation suppliers)

Actually, just because you do not eat silver fox or mink does not mean their bodies are not going to be used as food....

we market meat all over the world, horse, while not accepted here, is eaten all around the world.

Just make sure when buying a fur product you know whre they come from and what that farms reputation is.

As Dmitri pointed out, he notes when an endangered species pelt comes in.
We know of a man who is able to get his hands on some very odd animal bones and pelts. They are natural dies from zoos and he uses them in his work.
I know of friends who own lioness bone daggers.

Now I am pretty certain she does not eat lion (though I have), but every part of that animal was used upon death.

Wearing fur is ok, if the animals were humanely put down AND if the entire animal is used and not simply thrown away.
Even if that use is fertalizer or food for animals.

I do not mind animals being killed as long as it is done fast and there is no waste.

And sadly I have had to put horses, pigs, goats, sheep and other animals down. It is horrible. I have to call and have them picked up and removed. aThe animals still never go to waste.

It is a horrible feeling to put a friend down, but I have had to do it. And I know that each of them have gone on to continue their usefulness on this earth...

Muffin

[webmistress]

My only real problem with the fur trade is that it is so often wasteful (other than the horror on that video, I mean). With leather, so much of the animal is used that it seems justifable in a way. I mean hell - I am a leather carver. I don't have a problem with us using and killing animals - but the way they are killed simply MUST be humane - and they certainly MUST be dead before people begin dismembering them and peeling their skin off. This level of suffering and torture is simply repugnant and incomphrensible to me.

That raccoon with the fur left only around its eyes will haunt me for the rest of my life. I have seen some horrible, horrible things - but this was the worst. :(

My org only deals with criminal issues, not ethical ones like this - so I can't even really mention this on our website,

[Eric McTavish]

That raccoon with the fur left only around its eyes will haunt me for the rest of my life. I have seen some horrible, horrible things - but this was the worst. :(

My org only deals with criminal issues, not ethical ones like this - so I can't even really mention this on our website,

Something like this dosent fall under Animal cruelity laws?

[Brigid]

most foreign counties don't have the laws we do in place to protect animal rights. and others allow certain things becuase of cultural traditions.

[webmistress]

Not in China, it doesn't.

[Eric McTavish]

Not in China, it doesn't.

ahh... I understand...as I said I havent watched the vid so I missed that...

I agree snipe...

and it really is difficult to force foriegn countries to make animal cruelty laws. I mean sanctioning and refusing to trade with a nation oveer animal rights is so far down on the list.

It is hard enough to try to get them to deal with HUMAN rights as it is, and even then unless it is some mass catastrophy or "ethnic cleanisings", most nations don't really care.

Muffin

[Dmitri]

We know of a man who is able to get his hands on some very odd animal bones and pelts. They are natural dies from zoos and he uses them in his work.
I know of friends who own lioness bone daggers.

I can almost guarantee that they have licenses to have such items. As there are severe laws in the US about endangered species. You cannot even HAVE a dropped raptor feather in the US unless you are a native american (for use in religious rites) or a Falconer. You WILL be arrested and fined even if you found the feather in the woods.

It is fine to SAY that they are natural dies but the EPA needs proof. I turned away a $1500 order cause he wanted me to use wolf... Some one approached me once saying they wanted me to incorporate leopard hide in a piece... Again NO...

In the end I need to sleep at night... I will not perpetuate the poaching syndicates by purchasing or owning any illegal animal parts (rightly gotten or not) remove the market, they have no business... No market saves animals...

[webmistress]

Geoff - I agree. It should be mentioned that many of the people who have licenses for these exotic animals do not treat them well - and their idea of "natural causes" may not be wholly accurate. As an example, it is estimated that there are approximately 10,000 captive tigers in the US alone. Having been directly involved in many cases where the people who had licenses for these animals have mistgreated them and neglected them horribly, I am more cynical than most when someone tells me it died of natural causes. (Obviously, in an accredited sanctuary, etc - thats a different story.) It doesn't take very much to get a license to own a captive exotic animal in this country. You go to fish and game, and you fill in a form and pay a fee. *sometimes* they actually check up on the animals and the facility - but more often than not, they forget all about the licensee unless people call with complaints. There is no amount of training required to own these animals, and many people who get them as cubs have NO idea how much it really takes to take care of them.

In the colton tiger rescue case, this jerk *still* maintains that the animals died of natural causes, even after necropsies proved they had been starved to death. We practically brought a lion back from the dead, that Weinhart said had "congenital health problems" - he attributed those problems as the reasons why the lion was bone-thin and was suffering seizures. We made sure the lion got fed after that - and lo' and behold, he made a complete recovery, gained weight, and stopped seizing. (Weinhart was just recently convicted on 57 counts, btw.)

[Dmitri]

it is estimated that there are approximately 10,000 captive tigers in the US alone.

Isn't it sad Alison, that there are almost 3x more tigers in the US than in their natural wild habitats...

A friend of my family, rest his soul, that had a tiger. Thing was born half blind and had severe epilepsy... But GODS, Dom loved that thing to death. She was a beautiful animal. 600lbs of tabby... Course when she rubbed up against you she knocked to over. Purred like a well tuned porsche... She was happy healthy and well cared for. What a doll... His love for that animal got him to move down to Florida and buy land, hire a person with 20+ years of experience and licenses in caring for big cats and made a refuge. When he died Dom had rescued at least 20 - 30 animals. Including leopards, Serval cats, Caracals and at least one snow leopard. I'm not sure if the refuge is still around... Dom would have wanted it to be.

God's got a special place in heaven for that man.

[Mylilpinkpig]

It is fine to SAY that they are natural dies but the EPA needs proof. I turned away a $1500 order cause he wanted me to use wolf... Some one approached me once saying they wanted me to incorporate leopard hide in a piece... Again NO...

In the end I need to sleep at night... I will not perpetuate the poaching syndicates by purchasing or owning any illegal animal parts (rightly gotten or not) remove the market, they have no business... No market saves animals...

Very well said.

[webmistress]

Isn't it sad Alison, that there are almost 3x more tigers in the US than in their natural wild habitats...

Oh I know it. Don't even get me started. It makes me SO angry that the government makes it so easy to own these animals. At the VERY least, they should require that the applicants pass a detailed test, and prove that they have the financial means to support the animal in an adequate manner. If I had a dollar for every captive exotic that was neglected because the owners 1) got tired of it when it got too big 2) got scared of it when it got too big 3) couldn't afford to feed it when it got too big - and so on and so on.

But we digress. My point was simply that the world is filled with liars and users that are lacking any semblance of empathy or compassion - so I'm not inclined to believe anyone about much these days - not unless I have proof.

[Dmitri]

When I was looking for a dog... I wanted a wolf... I looked into hybrids. I read all I could about them. My turning point was when I went to a presentation of a wolf rescue group from Colorado, Operation Wolf I believe. They showed me how wrong hybrids and the perpetuation of them is. 90+% are killed, euthenized, or put into rescue of some sort. To this day I preach against and urge others not to purchase hybrid and stop the market for these lost souls with no real place in the world.

Having wild animals as pets is wrong... For every person that has a good story, there are 100 bad ones...

So I didn't get a hybrid, I got a Malamute. She was a HANDFUL... Great dog and I will have another eventually...

And don't get me started on the AKC and breeds...

[webmistress]

Preaching to the choir, my friend. I couldn't agree more - on all points.


And I have a malamute, so I feel your pain there. Wonderful dogs, but one heck of a handful.

[Eric McTavish]

When I was looking for a dog... I wanted a wolf...

Intrested in sponsoring a Pack???
You get photos of "your" wolfs in the wild and updates...

personally I have 4 "rescue" cats

[Bonnie Strangeways]

Eric, I am interested. Could you please post or PM the link?

Thank you

[Caitriona]

When I was looking for a dog... I wanted a wolf... I looked into hybrids. I read all I could about them. My turning point was when I went to a presentation of a wolf rescue group from Colorado, Operation Wolf I believe. They showed me how wrong hybrids and the perpetuation of them is. 90+% are killed, euthenized, or put into rescue of some sort. To this day I preach against and urge others not to purchase hybrid and stop the market for these lost souls with no real place in the world.



First - I had a hybrid. You DON'T want to go there..

I couldn't watch the video, I'm crying just thinking about it. I would love to do that to one of them. See how it feels.

J and I ran a ferret rescue for years, until the pain and the financial cost got too high. We have a friend who still runs a rescue. I have bunnies as pets, I don't want to wear them..

I could never where any type of fur. It breaks my heart to even think about it.

[Psyche]

I was nearly thrown in jail for an incident that happened a few years ago... and the "wrongness" still makes me mad.

I was on my way home at about 11 pm, and I saw the car in front of me swerve off the road. It was a little used road and so I stopped to render assistance. Not being stupid, I did cycle a round into the chamber of my Glock. (Then husband was a cop... and I never went anywhere without being armed.)

When I got to the front of their car, I saw they had hit a deer. The deer was not dead, but it had suffered internal bleeding and would have drowned in it's own blood. So I did the humane thing and ended it's misery.

When one of the people moved, the headlights shone on the back end of the deer, and I saw fresh claw marks. Within seconds, I heard the growl from across the road. A cougar... and in full attack mode. It leapt and I brought it down.

As soon as I got home, I called the Sheriff's Department (where my then husband worked) and the Game Department. Before they knew who my ex was, the Game Department wanted me arrested and charged. Why? One would think it would have been for killing the cougar. Wrong. They wanted me arrested and charged with killing a deer out of hunting season.

I was told I should have left it there to die and gone home and called the Game Department to handle it. :roll: Logic finally clicked for them when A) I said who I was married to and what his job was (and they realized I had the backing of the Sheriff's Dept), and B) I told them I refused to leave the deer in that condition, because it might have gotten up and caused a fatality accident (and a similar situation had happened that season). The fact that I really did it because I coud not let the poor animal suffer had no effect on them.

[webmistress]

Psyche - while I agree with what you did - I can also understand to some degree why they would have been upset. Without knowing who you were, they have to take the position that its not OK to take these kinds of things into your own hands. While *you* are intelligent and carinig enough to know when to do the right thing - most people aren't - and they have to assume that you're most people before they know otherwise.

They can't just allow people to make those decisions - because most people make the wrong decision. It sucks - but its true, and I see it over and over every week. People who mean well (and more often those that don't) often make bad decisions, so they have to take the position that the proper reaction is to call them.

I'm not saying they are compassionate and caring - I can just understand their position to a degree.

[webmistress]

Geoff - btw - this is my malamute girlie:

http://www.snipe.net/snipe/gallery/pics/463_1109245274.jpg

http://www.snipe.net/snipe/gallery/view.php?gallery_id=33 (more here)

[Phoenix McHeit]

AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW WWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*insert big dopey-love-filled grin here* Snipe! She's ADORABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[webmistress]

LOL thanks phoenix :) That pic I posted is from when she was at the shelter. That pathetic face is what got her adopted. :D (I had gone tothe shelter to take pics for their website, NOT to adopt a dog... LOL)

[Phoenix McHeit]

*iwantadogiwantadogiwantadogiwantadogiwantadog*

[Drea Beth]

When I was looking for a dog... I wanted a wolf...

Intrested in sponsoring a Pack???
You get photos of "your" wolfs in the wild and updates...

personally I have 4 "rescue" cats

Thread jacking from Eric's comment...

Here in NJ, there is a large wolf preserve. (see link below)

http://www.lakotawolf.com

I think they do really great and much needed work. And they can use all the support they can get!

[Muireadach - PirateRogue]

I can almost guarantee that they have licenses to have such items. As there are severe laws in the US about endangered species. You cannot even HAVE a dropped raptor feather in the US unless you are a native american (for use in religious rites) or a Falconer. You WILL be arrested and fined even if you found the feather in the woods.

There is actually a way to own a raptor feather without being those two catagories. It has to be given to you as a gift by a native american AND the gift has to have been approved by their tribal elders/council. I know because my uncle is half Kiowa and half Comanchee. If I hadn't been dumb and quit the boy scouts before making eagle I would be the proud owner of a bald eagle feather.

Oh I know about the legality, he gets them legally from the San Diego Zoo (for one exmple). They are all obtained legally and the animals are far from mistreated.

I was not saying he goes to some shadey guy who raises these endangered species at all....

I grew up next to a wetlands/wolf preserve in NJ. It was a small affair, maybe 4 wolves. These people were dedicated to them and their land and making sure the species survived. They were somehow involved in the breeding programs in the country as well and would have members of gvt come out to check on them regularly.

Their place was amazing as were the wolves.

Nothing in the world beats going to sleep as a kid to the sound of a howl from the distant wolves...

And Snipe, what a doll face!!!!!

Muffin

[Dmitri]

Geoff - btw - this is my malamute girlie:

http://www.snipe.net/snipe/gallery/pics/463_1109245274.jpg

http://www.snipe.net/snipe/gallery/view.php?gallery_id=33 (more here)


Alison... She's gorgeous!!!! Kya is a "wolf sable" too... She's living with my ex- Linda now... She's living the good life in RI... I remember bringing her home... 7weeks old... 8lbs... she then turned into a 110lbs lap dog... Gods I miss her, but she's got more room up there and Mals really need that.

[Dmitri]

When I was looking for a dog... I wanted a wolf...

Intrested in sponsoring a Pack???
You get photos of "your" wolfs in the wild and updates...

personally I have 4 "rescue" cats

I've done this for the last 10+ years...

[Dmitri]

When I was looking for a dog... I wanted a wolf...

Intrested in sponsoring a Pack???
You get photos of "your" wolfs in the wild and updates...

personally I have 4 "rescue" cats

Thread jacking from Eric's comment...

Here in NJ, there is a large wolf preserve. (see link below)

http://www.lakotawolf.com

I think they do really great and much needed work. And they can use all the support they can get!

Didn't know about this... THANKS!!!!

[webmistress]

Alison... She's gorgeous!!!! Kya's living with my ex- Linda now... She's living the good life in RI... I remember bringing her home... 7weeks old... 8lbs... she then turned into a 110lbs lap dog... Gods I miss her, but she's got more room up there and Mals really need that.

Thanks!! She is my pride and joy - and the real kicker is that she has legal "mascot" status! That means I can bring her places other people can't bring their dogs. :-D Uhm... not that I *would*, mind you... LOL... She's a wonderful dog, but she has that selective hearing that is the malamute trademark. :)

She has NO idea how famous she is... LOL

[Eric McTavish]

I've done this for the last 10+ years...

I had a feeling but thought I'd ask Just in case! lol

BTW...D... I work Raptor Recovery... you should see the steps we have to take with our feathers! :shock:

[webmistress]

Also another note - BEFORE you support any of these rescues, shelters, etc - you should really do a little research on them first. You should make sure that you check GuideStar (www.guidestar.com) to make sure they are a 501(c)3 charity - and also call the local dept. of agriculture (and/or fish and game, if wild animals are involved) and find out if there have been any violations. If there have been, what were they, how long ago were they, and how quickly did they get resolved?

If they DO show up as a registered 501(c)3 charity, ask the charity these questions:

* How much of the organization's budget goes directly into animal care?
Are the organization's activities in line with its charitable mission?

* Does the organization have annual goals and a yardstick for measuring accomplishment?

* Does the organization keep donors informed by publishing complete and accurate statistics about all the animals in its care?

* Does the organization have a track record of success? (Find out how they quantify this)

I know I must sound like a paranoid freak, but EVERY month we get a new case of a charity or rescue that turned out to be something less than a safe-haven for animals. Sometimes its a shelter that turns out to be a place for an animal hoarder to feed their compulsions. Othertimes they are pseudo-sanctuaries as in the case of the colton tigers.

We all work hard for our money, and any good charity understands that you have the right to ask these questions. Always make sure you know where your money is really going, and how it will be used.

[webmistress]

BTW...D... I work Raptor Recovery... you should see the steps we have to take with our feathers! :shock:

I also do wildlife rescue, and we have to do the same thing for our raptor team.

[Phoenix McHeit]

My family is Native (Cherokee) and many years ago, my oldest brother got an Eagle-feather Headdress for our father as a gift. Y'all can imagine the hoops he had to jump through to get that. :shock: But seeing the tears in my 'macho-gruff-tough-man' father's eyes made the effort soooooooo worth it!

Edit: Yes, brother got it from a reservation.

[pngwnmama]

Well Luce... the leather shop I worked for this past PARF season has pelts - and they come from a preserve where the animals are allowed to live out their natural lives, and once that time is over, the pelts are harvested and put to use. If you want, I can see abut putting you in touch with them.

I watched the entire video - many tissues later I asked myself why I didn't just turn the damned thing off. But turning it off doesn't make it stop happening....

Methinks I'm gonna seek out my Rogue for a hug.

I have seenthis before. It is horrifying. I will only carry certain pelts in my shop. Most come from several different preserves where the animals have died of natural causes. Several are run by Native Americans, thus I am supporting something dear to me.. I will not use mink or chinchilla because of the farms. So I end up with lots of "strrange" pelts sometimes.

To find these sources, google natural animal preserves. Most are in the mid west. Hope this helps.

[rosefaeries]

I can almost guarantee that they have licenses to have such items. As there are severe laws in the US about endangered species. You cannot even HAVE a dropped raptor feather in the US unless you are a native american (for use in religious rites) or a Falconer. You WILL be arrested and fined even if you found the feather in the woods.

There is actually a way to own a raptor feather without being those two catagories. It has to be given to you as a gift by a native american AND the gift has to have been approved by their tribal elders/council. I know because my uncle is half Kiowa and half Comanchee. If I hadn't been dumb and quit the boy scouts before making eagle I would be the proud owner of a bald eagle feather.


That is not true. It may have been so at one time, but it has not been true for a great many years.The feathers cannot be gifted. This is a common misconception by many people including native americans. And this has gotten many people into legal problems.(I was until a few years ago an Indian education workshop coordinator/instructor ) Even native americans have to apply to have the feathers. You should see the paperwork necessary to get the feathers or carcass. And there is a limit to how many times you can apply for them. I have the laws concerning this in my storage unit.If anyone is interested I can try to find them. I will be working in the storage unit this weekend. Dmitri is correct in his information. And these are federal laws.