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Phoenix McHeit
03-21-2005, 09:00 PM
http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4305051/detail.html

FBI: 6 Killed In Minnesota School Shooting
Two Others Killed At Home Beforehand


:shock: :cry: :x

Holly
03-21-2005, 09:07 PM
Somewhere in Columbus Oh there was a gun brought into to school and it went off... in a backpack..
I havent heard anything else.

I am not sureprised... zero tolerance is old news... it is even mocked..

grr....

Artos O'Dalriada
03-21-2005, 09:14 PM
somewhere i heard something like that, not sure if it's the same story or not, somethin about a kid (real young) brought a gun in his pack, and it went off and went through his hand or something....either way, this kinda thing is really sad, and scary at the same time.

03-21-2005, 09:20 PM
Sadly, so many guns are brought to school and even though they knpw they will be expelled for it, kids still do it.

And sadly we rarely hear about kids being caught with them and being expelled. I think everytime a kid is caught they should publish it on the AP wire, this way kids will see not only are they not being original for bringing one in, but the punishments are real and happen often.

As depressing as it is, this really needs to be reported so much more as a possible way of deterring kids from bringing guns to schools.

When it gets to a point where they will commit mass murder though, there really is nothing that can stop them, unless someone finds out early enough and gets to them and the weapons before it is too late.....

Muffin

AshleyTheWench
03-21-2005, 09:34 PM
Jesus tap dancing christ, when will people learn? Oh wait. The answer is never. I fear for our society.

Artos O'Dalriada
03-21-2005, 09:38 PM
jesus....tap dancing....christ..................... well, THAT's a new one.....i've never heard that one before, have to add that to my list....point again

AshleyTheWench
03-21-2005, 11:25 PM
aww thanks.

there is also

Jesus Christ on Wheels..

03-22-2005, 12:49 AM
Cheese and Rice

and Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick (my personal favorite of the wider used ones)

also,Jesus crapping on a cracker....

All can be used to describe how I felt when reading this today.

Sadly, they say this has the most victims since Columbine.
Also, he walked into one classroom and did all this after killing his grandparents.

He did not go room to room, like the two from Columbine, but took it all out on the one classroom then shot himself.

Muffin

Buxom Wench
03-22-2005, 08:24 AM
While I'm sickened by what has happened too many times in our society, I still have to ask.... where are the adults in these kids lives? Don't they see that these kids are troubled? And most of all,.... WHY AREN'T THE GUNS LOCKED UP?????

I, myself, own two hand guns and my husband has a rifle and a shotgun. Since they were brought into our home, all 4 of our children were taught, DO NOT TOUCH!! They are ALWAYS locked in a safe and I check on them regularly. My children are all adults now but that doesn't stop me from being responsible.

What needs to be done is, more parents/guardians have to be penalized, as well as the children who do these unspeakable acts. If the adults had locked up their weapons AWAY from children, they would have a harder time getting their hands on them. I understand that if you really want to get something bad enough, you will always find a way. But, if we take more responsiblity, as adults, that would be a great beginning.

NOTE: I have the hand guns for protection -- my husband travels around the world and we live in an isolated area. And we also hunt -- the reason for the rifle and shotgun.

Phoenix McHeit
03-22-2005, 09:09 AM
Sadly, Buxom... very few people in this current, lenient society realize that "parent" is a VERBas well as noun. :evil:

Artos O'Dalriada
03-22-2005, 09:10 AM
huzzah to that m'dear.

Lady Sarah
03-22-2005, 09:11 AM
I don't understand the reasoning for leaving handguns (or any weapon for that mattter) lying about. There were always guns in the house when my brother and I were growing up. While they weren't under lock and key, per se, we were both taught that we were not to touch until we had training on how to use them properly. They weren't "off-limits" or "taboo" to us, which I think is a big part of the attraction for kids these days.

Buxom, isn't it amazing what a little bit of education and - GASP - rules will do for kids? ~chuckle~ If the parents who left those guns laying about had taken the time to educate their kids about the guns and set down firm rules, I can honestly say that I feel school shootings wouldn't be as great as they are now - the rarity instead of the common, as it were.

and Artos, my favorite JC quote for when I've reached the end of my rope... "Jesus H. Jumped Up Christ Almighty God". that or "Jesus Christ in a Ford PIckup Truck".

Artos O'Dalriada
03-22-2005, 09:14 AM
*snerk* that's good sawahs, hehe.....

Phoenix McHeit
03-22-2005, 09:20 AM
Me too Sarah - growing up, my dad and older brothers (and mom, too) had guns EVERYwhere! I was taught respect for the weapon, no matter what it was. I also was taught how to fire it, clean it, store it *properly*, and such.

We lived way out in the boonies when I was growing up, and often had hunters out in the field in back of the house. We'd join em sometimes. I was also taught...anything you shoot, you will kill... not just injure... and you will eat it. Hunting for food is what humans have done for umpteen years.

Yes, the guns were also for defense of the home, but luckily it never came down to that, for me. It was nice knowing it was available if needed, however.

Because of that upbringing, I have a healthy respect for firearms.I'm not afraid of them, but I dont have the need to 'play' with em either. I've SEEN what they can do.

I think you hit it right on the head, Sarah - with the amount of shooting done on video games (NO I'm NOT comdemning the games) I don't think kids realize just what an actual firearm CAN DO. The whole 'taboo' thing... kids are curious creatures - no matter what age they are.

Education, education, education... in my opinion.

Dmitri
03-22-2005, 09:23 AM
Jesus Christ in a Dumptruck...

Fact: Parents should be held accountable if the gun is found to come from them... period.

Reckless Negligent [sp?] Manslaughter... Man II at least.

I always had firearms in the house. We were taught firearm safety and how to use them correctly... Matter of fact we were NOT allowed to have ANY toy firearms in the house.

Firearms are not toys... Allowing kids to play with toy guns reinforces a "play" aspect of firearms. THAT IS THE PARENT'S FAULT!!!!

Lady Sarah
03-22-2005, 09:30 AM
...my dad and older brothers (and mom, too) had guns EVERYwhere! I was taught respect for the weapon, no matter what it was. I also was taught how to fire it, clean it, store it *properly*, and such.

/snip/

Because of that upbringing, I have a healthy respect for firearms.I'm not afraid of them, but I dont have the need to 'play' with em either. I've SEEN what they can do.

~chuckle~ it's amazing what actually BEING a parent and role model can do. my father LOVES guns. Not because they can kill, but because they're works of art. Despite the appearances, each one is different and out in the safe (we finally broke down and bought one when my brother's jeep was broken into - in our driveway, no less) he's got guns older than all four of us put together. I'm set to inherit two of the collection - my mother's Officer's Match Model and a hugemongous cannon of a muzzle loader rifle that dates back to the first World War. Daddy wouldn't let me TOUCH a gun until I had a handgun safety course - and despite being certified, he wouldn't teach me. He insisted on someone else doing it. Why? because he's my dad and he wanted me to know that it's not just "dad's rules" being handed down, that these were NRA guidelines and all around common fucking sense.

As it were, I already knew most of the stuff taught that day, but it was good for a refresher and my 12 year old neice sat through it as well. heh... beams with pride once she gets over her trepidation about the handguns and finds one she's comfortable with, she's going to be a great target shooter. And dad still hasn't lived down the fact that Mom and I both can out shoot him. heheheh

Mylilpinkpig
03-22-2005, 09:31 AM
wait,,,,didn't he get the gun from his grandfather?? Where were his parents?? My brother is a cop. He has guns in the house and he has a 7 year old. The first thing he does when he gets home is lock his guns in the safe. The safe is locked in a closet. My nephew knows about gun safety and not touching them BUT my brother doesn't take a chance with them. Guns are not toys.

KissMeKate
03-22-2005, 10:21 AM
There were always guns in the house when my brother and I were growing up. While they weren't under lock and key, per se, we were both taught that we were not to touch until we had training on how to use them properly. They weren't "off-limits" or "taboo" to us, which I think is a big part of the attraction for kids these days.

-- Slight tangent -- We were taught not only to respect guns but alcohol. So when I got to high school and then to college, the idea of getting drunk had no appeal to me. -- End tangent --

Although I was raised to respect guns, I have made the personal decision not to own a handgun, as I don't think I could point a gun at another human being and pull the trigger, not even to save my own life.

Unfortunately, the news report this morning gave a higher number of victims, plus there are still others in serious to critical condition. [Answering Mylilpinkpig] They also said his father had committed suicide a couple years ago and his mother is in a nursing home with brain damage. It's no excuse for this outcome, but he sounds like a very disturbed kid that probably had little or no counselling or emotional outlet for coping with the loss of his parents.

Lady Sarah
03-22-2005, 10:34 AM
-- Slight tangent -- We were taught not only to respect guns but alcohol. So when I got to high school and then to college, the idea of getting drunk had no appeal to me. -- End tangent --

Same here. There was no locked liquor cabinet, per se. It was there and we were told that if we wanted a drink with dinner, we would be allowed a little bit of wine - mind you it was only special occasions. My mom is the drinker, dad is not. Of course, my mom reads the sports page, "wears the pants of the family", taught my brother how to play baseball and football et al, and dad is the one cleans the kitchen, does the laundry, etc. complete role reversal ~L~ but I digress. I've watched my father nurse a whiskey and coke all night by adding more and more coke to the same glass he ordered during cocktail hour. What a beautiful example of having a drink and still being able to enjoy one's self!!

Alcohol was never a big temptation, like you, it was always there, we had access to it, we had it with dinners once in a while, etc. I'll have to go on the public record and admit that I'm not entirely keen on the effects of it. I mean, the other night I had a RumRita with dinner and damn if I didn't feel like my head was detached from my shoulders the rest of the night. Of course, Rum does strange things to me. But, I can have a glass of wine or a margarita and feel fine, still be able to enjoy myself.

I don't know if it's lack of common sense with some parents, or if it's just lack of self-respect. Phee said it best - children are curious little things and if you show them what they're curious about, if you educate them, the chances are that they'll think "OK, nothing special" and go about their childhood... if you shut them out, shut them down, and deny them the chance to see what it is they're curious about, they're going to think it's a bigger treat and persist until they get it. Then the fun comes in. "Mom and Dad didn't want me to see/touch/drink this and LOOK WHAT I FOUND!!!"

Phoenix McHeit
03-22-2005, 10:58 AM
Witnesses: School Gunman Smiled, Waved During Massacre
10 Dead After Shooting Rampage

More info.... http://www.thewgalchannel.com/news/4306315/detail.html

Lady Laurel
03-22-2005, 11:14 AM
Alcohol was never a big temptation, like you, it was always there, we had access to it, we had it with dinners once in a while, etc. I'll have to go on the public record and admit that I'm not entirely keen on the effects of it. I mean, the other night I had a RumRita with dinner and damn if I didn't feel like my head was detached from my shoulders the rest of the night. Of course, Rum does strange things to me. But, I can have a glass of wine or a margarita and feel fine, still be able to enjoy myself.

I feel the same as you Sarah. I just do not like hang overs period the end. I am a easy easy drunk so one drink thats enough. My grandfather was a violent alcoholic and therefore my father did not drink neither did my mother and it was never around growing up. They taught us that we do not need alcohol in our lives period that we can go on and have a good time without it. I got older and partied but in the end found that alcohol was just not really for me.
Guns were taught to us the same way they were not in the house but we learned quickly what the effects were if you shoot one.
I agree with the education it is the key.

Emrld
03-22-2005, 11:22 AM
I was raised in house that did have two weapons in it. They were mounted and considered art. Until I was in my teens I didn't even put it together that they were actual guns. (One had been used to guard a bank against Bonnie and Clyde and the other is a military piece. Both of them are historical items)
I was not allowed to play with toy weapons including water guns. (water ballons were ok) My parents wanted me to respect weapons for what they are. I have friends that do own weapons and they know that guns are not allowed in my house. I personally do not have any gun training and therefore out of respect don't want them where I would be considered responsible for them.

Dragonfly
03-22-2005, 11:57 AM
What I love is that they've already stereotyped him as listening to metal music, being a goth, wearing a trench coat (ooo...foxglove's gonna go postal. :roll: ) and talking about death all the time.

There ya go. He's not a human being anymore but a set of ideas and choices. That explains it all and makes it safe and somewhat graspable. So instead of blaming the conditions he was in, or the fact that he might have been mentally sick, or that he was teased in school, what have you...it was the music. It was the video games. It was the culture/media/Uncle Sam....whatever. it was some bullshit that we're going to ascribe to him so that we can feel like we can see it coming next time and prevent it.

Notice how well that went after Columbine.

Buxom Wench
03-22-2005, 12:11 PM
Fact: Parents should be held accountable if the gun is found to come from them... period.

Reckless Negligent [sp?] Manslaughter... Man II at least.

I always had firearms in the house. We were taught firearm safety and how to use them correctly... Matter of fact we were NOT allowed to have ANY toy firearms in the house.

Firearms are not toys... Allowing kids to play with toy guns reinforces a "play" aspect of firearms. THAT IS THE PARENT'S FAULT!!!!

I too had firearms in the home growing up. My 2 brothers and I were all taught proper use and respect for them. My children have also been taught the proper use and respect. Our oldest son spent a brief time in the military and gained an even greater respect.

Toy guns were also a NO NO in our home. I didn't want a toy gun in my home that could give the children a false understanding of what a real gun could do.

When they were old enough, we took the children outside to the target practice area we had set up in our yard and showed them exactly what a gun can do. We filled soda cans with water and let them watch as the water spewed in every direction from the impact of the bullet. They realized that what they see in the movies may be acting but the results (the deaths in movies) can be very real. We even video tapes the "lesson" to show them later on.

I just wish more people were as responsible with their guns as I am.

I don't know if there will ever be a "perfect" solution.

BTW - Jesus Christ on a bicycle. (from a movie I love)

daBaroness
03-22-2005, 12:23 PM
There's a point here that hasn't been brought up - so I'll do the honors. Now, by way of a caveat, I'm in no way making excuses for the murder of anyone by anyone - I'm the one who thinks having wars as a way of solving disputes is insane ...

That said. This incident took place on the Red Lake Chippewa Indian Reservation - not in suburbia, America. If no one here has ever been on a reservation, muchless the Red Lake piece of hell on Earth, I don't think we have the capacity to fully understand some of the situations and conditions that might have brought this young man to such a point of insane, thoughtless desperation.

Reservations - the parts without the casinos - are pretty horrible, inhumane places to live, muchless raise a family and thrive. It is not unusual for a reservation to have an unemployment rate of upwards of 75%. There is horrible, unfathomable poverty that makes the urban poor of this country look well-to-do. Dating back 200 years or more the U.S. government has treated its native peoples with less dignity and compassion; with less honor than most people treat a junkyard dog. Native peoples were rounded up - moved out of their traditional, sacred and familiar lands and placed on reservations in order to break their spirits - thus eliminating their ability to unify and oppose their own genocide.

Reservations were generally tracts of the least desirable, least productive and least valuable land available. The Bureau of Indian Affairs, which was established to help natie peoples is just one giant bureaucracy that actually keeps native tribes in a hopeless state of segregation, poverty and helplessness. Tribes that have managed to prosper are generally ones in more accessible areas where gaming generates significant enough revenue to actually help its' members. Prior to gaming, sale of native goods like clothing, jewelry, art and other collectibles provided jobs and revenue - predominantly in the southwest.

But for reservations like Red Lake - located in the upper portion of Minnesota - far away from any real civilization (Fargo is 150 miles away for criminy sakes) - the ability of the tribe to be a self-sustaining entity and thriving community is near zero. Most children still attend boarding schools far from their families - or reservation schools that are considerably inferior to the public schools most of us attended. Many children also grow up without benefit of a two-parent home - or even a single-parent home. Because of the lack of employment and other opportunities, many native people fall into alcohol and drug abuse and become unable to care for themselves or their children. The alcoholism rate is something like triple that of most other demographic groups on a reservation. And once proud people are virtually stripped bare of their heritage and the self respect needed to motivate their members to greater things.

So - having taken up volumes of space (very poorly) describing reservation life in general - it's probably a miracle something like this hasn't happened long ago. Perhaps it has, but because the victims were native people, it never rated even a mention in the mainstream media. No body cared. After all, it was a bunch of Indians - and they were so far removed from mainstream life it really made no difference to the average American.

This incident was a tragedy in so many ways. My hope as a former Minnesota resident and someone who is even minisculely knowledgeable of native people - is that it might draw some attention to the conditions that exist on the Red Lake reservation - and others like it. In Minnesota - in the winter - where the government-provided housing isn't really built for the climate; where drinking replaces education and employment; where isolation breeds unimaginable effect ... Perhaps this horrible event will give us a glimpse into a life apart from our experience and will cause us to do something constructive to change the lives of the people in that community. I hope that, but I doubt it will be the case.

Again, I'm not condoning what this boy did - but I am grieving our lack of understanding of the things that led up to this desperate act.

I'll leave with a thought that brings a tear to my eye ... there is currently a song on the country charts by an artist named Blaine Larsen entitled, "How do you get that lonely" with haunting lyrics appropos to this situation. The title question is posed about a young man who has taken his own life and the search for the related unanswerable questions. The lyrics ...

How do you get that lonely?
How do you hurt so bad?
To make you make the call, that havin' no life at all
Is better than the life that you had?
How do you get to empty
you want to let it all go?
How do you get that lonely ...
and nobody knows?

(Listen at http://www.cmt.com/artists/az/larsen_blaine/854933/album.jhtml )

I just feel such sorrow for the entire situation ...

Lady Sarah
03-22-2005, 12:37 PM
What I love is that they've already stereotyped him as listening to metal music, being a goth, wearing a trench coat (ooo...foxglove's gonna go postal. :roll: ) and talking about death all the time.

There ya go. He's not a human being anymore but a set of ideas and choices. That explains it all and makes it safe and somewhat graspable.

it's human nature to try and rationalize his actions instead of admitting that perhaps there were other issues. It stems from a lack of MEA CULPA these days. How many times have you seen in the news that so and so did this, and this is a probable reason, or so and so did that, but they couldn't help it because they were tormented in gradeschool by bullies.

what part of being bullied justifies mass murder? Our kids today have NO skin whatsoever, let alone a thick skin. some parents have sheltered their kids so much, isolated them so much from the playground blunders and "perils" that we've all endured, and it's taking it's toll now.

daBaroness
03-22-2005, 12:47 PM
That said. This incident took place on the Red Lake Chippewa Indian Reservation - not in suburbia, America. If no one here has ever been on a reservation, muchless the Red Lake piece of hell on Earth, I don't think we have the capacity to fully understand some of the situations and conditions that might have brought this young man to such a point of insane, thoughtless desperation.

Please folks, don't judge this case on your own experiences of life in a small town, large city or suburbia ... it's comparing apples to oranges. And in my book, as a child who was bullied, nothing justifies the persecution of one child by another or many others. As adults we are called to correct behavior that has done more harm to people than imaginable.

Trust me, I have a thick skin - but I spend a lifetime deprogramming the negative self-talk and self doubt planted by those children (now long grown) who bullied me. Bullying - it's the gift that keeps on giving ... and giving ... and giving. The old children's rhyme, "sticks and stones may break my bones but names can never hurt me ..." Well, it's bullshit - gimme a broken bone or clobber me with a stone any day of the week - the physical wounds will heal long before the emotional ones!

Holly
03-22-2005, 01:25 PM
There's a point here that hasn't been brought up - so I'll do the honors. Now, by way of a caveat, I'm in no way making excuses for the murder of anyone by anyone - I'm the one who thinks having wars as a way of solving disputes is insane ...

That said. This incident took place on the Red Lake Chippewa Indian Reservation - not in suburbia, America. If no one here has ever been on a reservation, muchless the Red Lake piece of hell on Earth, I don't think we have the capacity to fully understand some of the situations and conditions that might have brought this young man to such a point of insane, thoughtless desperation.

Reservations - the parts without the casinos - are pretty horrible, inhumane places to live, muchless raise a family and thrive. It is not unusual for a reservation to have an unemployment rate of upwards of 75%. There is horrible, unfathomable poverty that makes the urban poor of this country look well-to-do. Dating back 200 years or more the U.S. government has treated its native peoples with less dignity and compassion; with less honor than most people treat a junkyard dog. Native peoples were rounded up - moved out of their traditional, sacred and familiar lands and placed on reservations in order to break their spirits - thus eliminating their ability to unify and oppose their own genocide.

Reservations were generally tracts of the least desirable, least productive and least valuable land available. The Bureau of Indian Affairs, which was established to help natie peoples is just one giant bureaucracy that actually keeps native tribes in a hopeless state of segregation, poverty and helplessness. Tribes that have managed to prosper are generally ones in more accessible areas where gaming generates significant enough revenue to actually help its' members. Prior to gaming, sale of native goods like clothing, jewelry, art and other collectibles provided jobs and revenue - predominantly in the southwest.

But for reservations like Red Lake - located in the upper portion of Minnesota - far away from any real civilization (Fargo is 150 miles away for criminy sakes) - the ability of the tribe to be a self-sustaining entity and thriving community is near zero. Most children still attend boarding schools far from their families - or reservation schools that are considerably inferior to the public schools most of us attended. Many children also grow up without benefit of a two-parent home - or even a single-parent home. Because of the lack of employment and other opportunities, many native people fall into alcohol and drug abuse and become unable to care for themselves or their children. The alcoholism rate is something like triple that of most other demographic groups on a reservation. And once proud people are virtually stripped bare of their heritage and the self respect needed to motivate their members to greater things.

So - having taken up volumes of space (very poorly) describing reservation life in general - it's probably a miracle something like this hasn't happened long ago. Perhaps it has, but because the victims were native people, it never rated even a mention in the mainstream media. No body cared. After all, it was a bunch of Indians - and they were so far removed from mainstream life it really made no difference to the average American.

This incident was a tragedy in so many ways. My hope as a former Minnesota resident and someone who is even minisculely knowledgeable of native people - is that it might draw some attention to the conditions that exist on the Red Lake reservation - and others like it. In Minnesota - in the winter - where the government-provided housing isn't really built for the climate; where drinking replaces education and employment; where isolation breeds unimaginable effect ... Perhaps this horrible event will give us a glimpse into a life apart from our experience and will cause us to do something constructive to change the lives of the people in that community. I hope that, but I doubt it will be the case.

...

As someone who has spent time on seven differnt reservations, both east and west... i can agree with what Da B said.

To add to it, i was told when going through training, that the reservations are called that because origionally they feel under the same jursidiction as the game and wildlife reservations.

Cant remember the president who put that inot place, but it was only changed recently ... ie last 20 years..

Lady Laurel
03-22-2005, 01:25 PM
The alcoholism rate is something like triple that of most other demographic groups on a reservation. And once proud people are virtually stripped bare of their heritage and the self respect needed

My brother in law worked on a reservation in a government run hospital in Arizona. He was a RN in trauma. He said that thier genetic makeup causes them to be so adverse to alcohol. He said he had never seen such alcoholism and despair in his life. ( He only worked there a year and had to leave). The reservation he worked on was in Arizona and it was one that was supposively doing well. He also said that the food that they eat causes a high incidence of diabetes and high blood pressure.
I do not condone what the boy did either but I want to look at the reason this happened and is there anything that could have been done to prevent it or keep it from happening in the future.

Holly
03-22-2005, 01:26 PM
There's a point here that hasn't been brought up - so I'll do the honors. Now, by way of a caveat, I'm in no way making excuses for the murder of anyone by anyone - I'm the one who thinks having wars as a way of solving disputes is insane ...

That said. This incident took place on the Red Lake Chippewa Indian Reservation - not in suburbia, America. If no one here has ever been on a reservation, muchless the Red Lake piece of hell on Earth, I don't think we have the capacity to fully understand some of the situations and conditions that might have brought this young man to such a point of insane, thoughtless desperation.

Reservations - the parts without the casinos - are pretty horrible, inhumane places to live, muchless raise a family and thrive. It is not unusual for a reservation to have an unemployment rate of upwards of 75%. There is horrible, unfathomable poverty that makes the urban poor of this country look well-to-do. Dating back 200 years or more the U.S. government has treated its native peoples with less dignity and compassion; with less honor than most people treat a junkyard dog. Native peoples were rounded up - moved out of their traditional, sacred and familiar lands and placed on reservations in order to break their spirits - thus eliminating their ability to unify and oppose their own genocide.

Reservations were generally tracts of the least desirable, least productive and least valuable land available. The Bureau of Indian Affairs, which was established to help natie peoples is just one giant bureaucracy that actually keeps native tribes in a hopeless state of segregation, poverty and helplessness. Tribes that have managed to prosper are generally ones in more accessible areas where gaming generates significant enough revenue to actually help its' members. Prior to gaming, sale of native goods like clothing, jewelry, art and other collectibles provided jobs and revenue - predominantly in the southwest.

But for reservations like Red Lake - located in the upper portion of Minnesota - far away from any real civilization (Fargo is 150 miles away for criminy sakes) - the ability of the tribe to be a self-sustaining entity and thriving community is near zero. Most children still attend boarding schools far from their families - or reservation schools that are considerably inferior to the public schools most of us attended. Many children also grow up without benefit of a two-parent home - or even a single-parent home. Because of the lack of employment and other opportunities, many native people fall into alcohol and drug abuse and become unable to care for themselves or their children. The alcoholism rate is something like triple that of most other demographic groups on a reservation. And once proud people are virtually stripped bare of their heritage and the self respect needed to motivate their members to greater things.

So - having taken up volumes of space (very poorly) describing reservation life in general - it's probably a miracle something like this hasn't happened long ago. Perhaps it has, but because the victims were native people, it never rated even a mention in the mainstream media. No body cared. After all, it was a bunch of Indians - and they were so far removed from mainstream life it really made no difference to the average American.

This incident was a tragedy in so many ways. My hope as a former Minnesota resident and someone who is even minisculely knowledgeable of native people - is that it might draw some attention to the conditions that exist on the Red Lake reservation - and others like it. In Minnesota - in the winter - where the government-provided housing isn't really built for the climate; where drinking replaces education and employment; where isolation breeds unimaginable effect ... Perhaps this horrible event will give us a glimpse into a life apart from our experience and will cause us to do something constructive to change the lives of the people in that community. I hope that, but I doubt it will be the case.

...

As someone who has spent time on seven differnt reservations, both east and west... i can agree with what Da B said.

To add to it, i was told when going through training, that the reservations are called that because origionally they feel under the same jursidiction as the game and wildlife reservations.

Cant remember the president who put that inot place, but it was only changed recently ... ie last 20 years..


The killings are horrible, be they on the reservation or not, i would be upset if they happended in the worse ghetto in the worst city. Children should not know how to kill other children..

daBaroness
03-22-2005, 01:38 PM
I went to the Red Lake Chippewa Nation Web site and found this message posted to tribe members from their tribal chairman (formerly known as a chief). I thought it was very touching and well-spoken, and wanted to share it with you.

Attention Red Lake Nation members.

I am sorry to announce that the events that took place today involving the
shootings at the Red Lake High School make this one of the darkest and most
painful occurrences in the history of our tribe.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims.

I can assure the Red Lake tribal members that the situation is under control and secure.
Several organizations and agencies have offered assistance in our time of need and the Red Lake Nation has graciously accepted.

The FBI, ATF, BCA, along with the Beltrami County Sheriff’s Department, the Minnesota State Highway Patrol and the Red Cross will be providing assistance to our public safety department through out the next several days. These agencies are all here with our permission.

An information line has been set up to handle your calls and to answer any questions you may have. The number is 679-4284.This is a 24 hour emergency line.

Because of the tragic nature of this unfortunate occurrence, I am calling on all tribal entities and programs to stand alert in order to provide assistance to those in need.

I am ordering all Red Lake and United States flags to be flown at half staff until further notice.

Finally, I encourage all Red Lake Nation members to embrace and support one another in these tragic times.

Miigwetch

Floyd Jourdain Jr.,
Chairman
Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians

If anyone is interested, the tribal Web site is http://www.redlakenation.org/ and their community Web site is http://www.rlnn.com/

Cyranno DeBoberac
03-22-2005, 01:49 PM
[...] so and so did that, but they couldn't help it because they were tormented in gradeschool by bullies.

what part of being bullied justifies mass murder?
It might not be justifiable, but it can be understandable.

Had school shootings been "fashionable" back when I was in Junior High and HS, considering the torment I was put through, it's possible that I would have done something like that. At the time I certainly had fantasies along those lines. There's one or two people to whom I'd still like to serve an ice-cold dish of fatal revenge. (Let's just say I don't go to the reunions....)

In my defense, I wouldn't have been indiscriminate like the Columbine kids; I would have chosen my targets very carefully.

daBaroness
03-22-2005, 02:04 PM
Cyranno:

As would many of us. Funny thing is, when talk shows do segments where formerly bullied people get to face their tormenters ... the bullies seldom remember being bullies. In fact, most I've ever seen deny they even knew their victims at all - or at most may give passing acknowledgement to perhaps being a bit unkind in the past. And every one I've seen, even if they do acknowledge the fact they bullied, always have some lame justification for their behavior and generally try to blame those they bullied - for being "weird" or different, or whatever ...

Apparently the personalities of teen-age bullies don't mature much. I hate to think once a jerk, always a jerk, but it sadly does apply.

I do remember one person on a TV talk show acknowledging the torture and torment they doled out; acknowledge the fact they had intentionally singled out their victim; and amazingly - they felt great remorse over their attitudes and actions. This one particular bully even offered a very heartfelt apology to his victim and acknowledged the hurt and humiliation caused his victim at the time - and the lifelong pain he'd set into motion. Fortunately, the victim accepted the bully's apologies and the two set up a small organization to educate people on childhood bullying. Now THAT's turning lemons into lemonade!

Dmitri
03-22-2005, 02:20 PM
You know... I'm tired of whiney little pussies crying about how "abused they were in Highschool... I was bullied... I was made fun of... Try hitting puberty and half you hair falling out because of Alopecia... just even try getting a girl to talk to you then... Sorry, we ALL had it fucking rough in highschool.

WAAAAH WAAH WAAHH....

Did it suck? Sure. Did I hate people? You bet... But did I EVER actually fantasize about KILLING people? Why? BECAUSE I'M NOT A SOCIOPATH!!!!!! [sp?]

And Cyranno... I implore you... GO TO YOUR REUNION... It's a real eye opener... Especially when you see that those bullies and jocks and popular kids *peaked* in Highschool... and those were their best years...

Dragonfly
03-22-2005, 02:27 PM
I'll cop to being fucked up as a teen.
(*gasp* No Dragonfly! Not you!, you say...*chuckle*)
I took a knife to school in my backpack for about 2 months because of the bullying. I was terrified at the time because I'd thought to dye my hair red. Not natural red, stop-sign red. And I was harassed everywhere between classes because of the conservative area we lived in.
Grunge, I might add, was just starting to be cool back then and Kurt Cobain's hair was pink, something that totally floored most of the populace there.
They would often feint like they were going to strike me or shove me, but never quite pushed me. The verbal abuse was pretty bad. I was called some things that nowadays I wouldn't even think twice to deck somebody over. Lucky for me I was the straight-A darling of most of the teachers there (and insanely quiet and shy), so they knew better. But I was seriously scared that at one point I would hit a spot in the halls where nobody could see, and would get jumped.
I don't think Foxglove even knows this, now that I think of it. heh. Sorry hon. :oops:
I told my mother and she went so far as to talk with the district supervisor about getting me some help, dragging in the kids that were doing it. But I knew the retribution for doing so would be infinitely worse afterwards than it was before.
So I kept the knife in my bag and hoped I didn't have to use it.
Thankfully they gave it up after a couple more students dyed their hair odd colors as well. I never had to.
In this case I justify it because I was outnumbered 4 to one every single time this happened. And it wasn't just girls, it was the more white-trash guys in our school, too...some of them, I'm sure, who also had knives on them. It wasn't right, I feel like an utter idiot having done it knowing now that I escaped unscathed. When you're in the middle of the situation, though, it's something that's very hard to see your way out of. And sometimes it feels like it'll never end, you'll never get clear of it.
maybe Cyranno can back me on that one.
I'm not excusing what this boy did. But if he was even the tiniest bit depressed, or had a chemical imbalance in his brain, treatment like that might've pushed him over the edge.
Kids just really don't think much beyond 2 weeks from now and that's the end of the world for them...what's going on right now is real and it's eternal. And if they could be taught to look past that, then maybe we would have fewer of these issues.

Lady Laurel
03-22-2005, 02:37 PM
e bullies and jocks and popular kids *peaked* in Highschool... and those were their best years...

Dimitri you are right on.
I was bullied by the popular girls in school because I was so shy and quiet. Eveyday it was something they would still my stuff, bash me over the head with books, and then the popular boys well that was horrible to say the least.
I came back home after several years being gone. They are very different and Dimitri was right most of them are slugs that never did anything with thier life.
Where as I started to mature later in my 20's.
You know I never thought of killing them though I just wanted to change schools ( which I eventually did). I just wanted to run away.

Dmitri
03-22-2005, 02:46 PM
I was an art geek and AV nerd. But I had a glaring physical anomoly that could be exploited. And it was... Thankfully Teachers weren't assholes and never told me to remove my baseball cap in class... But still... Insecurities die hard. I'm still living with them... But that doesn't give me the right to murder a bully.

You cannot state that a bullied kid is just a kid that doesn't know any better and then crucify the bully... Since the Bully is in effect a kid that doesn't know any better...

Dmitri
03-22-2005, 02:50 PM
I took a knife to school in my backpack for about 2 months because of the bullying.

So did I... Course this was before you needed to worry about a gun... We had many inner city kids in my school... Lots of Muggings and asskickings... not for bullying but for being white...

So I carried a butterfly knife that I named Ginsu... Got real good with flipping it around... never used it... Thankfully. Still have that knife 18 years later...

emalia
03-22-2005, 02:52 PM
I know that this was way back in teh converstaion, but what about neutering those that have proven that they can't parent? I think that the parents should be punished for their chrildren's deeds. I think that as the responsilble party, it is their fault that this happens. I don't care what you do, there should always be enough time for parenting. I also blame a HUGE part of this on the Latch Key children in life. There is WAY too much un-supervised time on these children's hands.

Publish the names of every child that gets kicked out of school for weapons. Make a HUGE deal of it. Hold the parents accountable, and you know what, maybe we would have frewer fuck-ups in our society. Lets hand a little bit of accountability back to people. It isn't the system, it isn't the schools, IT"S YOU!

03-22-2005, 03:03 PM
You know... I'm tired of whiney little pussies crying about how "abused they were in Highschool... I was bullied... I was made fun of... Try hitting puberty and half you hair falling out because of Alopecia... just even try getting a girl to talk to you then... Sorry, we ALL had it fucking rough in highschool.

WAAAAH WAAH WAAHH....

Did it suck? Sure. Did I hate people? You bet... But did I EVER actually fantasize about KILLING people? Why? BECAUSE I'M NOT A SOCIOPATH!!!!!! [sp?]...

I agree.

I was bullied horribly all through three years of jr high (6-8 ). Why? Because I worked at our local horse farm making money and riding before and after shool.
I was called Bronco and even had one boy spit directly into my face. Bobby Schott.

What a horrible person I was have a work ethic and being an accomplished rider, how horrible. Never did I hear a fat comment, or an ugly comment, but the town I lived in was very well off. We moved there in the begining of the 6th grade before swchool started. I had as much money as everyone who teased me, but my parents wante me to have a respect for the cost of things, so I had to earn half for everything I had, saddles, lessons, even horses I bought I paid half for (as a mere teen), so I was mocked because some kids who had horses did not work and I rode their horses because they were to busy shopping or going on dates. That made me a target. Pretty sad.

Kids tease for such unknown reasons.

I left for private school my freshman year, but was kicked out (catholic school and I did not agree) so when I rturned to public school my sophmore year, all of a sudden those same kids who hated me, were now my best friends. Right up until I left public high school a few years later, I was oneof the "cool" kids.

I made it a point to NEVER treat anyone mean, I had so many friends, geeks, goths, whatever....but I was always accepted into the cool cliques, even though I never truly hung out with them. I knew how crule they were to me and always took them with a grain of salt.

I still hate Bobby Schott. He accepted me into their group,but I never forgot what he ever did and he never apologized.

Never once did I ever think of killing anyone. Being tripped, smacked ont he ass, boobs grabbed (because I was a stable hand to them), spit int he face, you name it, never once did I ever think of killing anyone.

I would not wish what happened to me in jr high on anyone.

Muffin

Adriana Rose
03-22-2005, 03:05 PM
It seems that more than any thing there are people out there who threaten to hurt people in their schools for attention.

I was suspended for "making threats" in 8th grade along with two other friends. And the kicker is the fact that we were not talking of any thing like this, we were venting about the bull shit that happens in our school. So some one over heard us and took it worng and told the principal. I was suspended for a week and was required to take a violence possiblity test(wich I passed with an incredably low score) and then a explusion hearing where the vice pricnicpal told me that if he saw me with my best friend(she was suspended with me) that I would be suspended again. It's five years laterand teachers still look at me funny.

Dragonfly
03-22-2005, 03:10 PM
Actually, I have to argue somewhat on this.

My Dad and stepmom are currently the caretakers for two kids who were crack babies. One is utterly messed up beyond repair, the other can mostly function.
Their impulse control is horrible, they won't listen and they have utterly no respect for anyone. Their lack of forethought on things is appalling. It doesn't occur to them that they can't jus talk about bringing bombs to school to blow people up who pissed them off (true story and one that landed them in court last week.)
I don't feel the parents should be punished in this case because these kids have something physically wrong with their brains. Whatever part controls self-regulation and impulse control is shot to hell, and it's been shown that medications and hormone therapy have very little affect on them.
In instances like that (where honestly I think the kids need to go to a group home before my father dies from the stress) I think the parents are trying but nothing can be done.
I just wanna smack those little snots sometimes, honestly. *sigh* :roll:

Cyranno DeBoberac
03-22-2005, 03:12 PM
You know... I'm tired of whiney little pussies crying about how "abused they were in Highschool... I was bullied... I was made fun of... Try hitting puberty and half you hair falling out because of Alopecia... just even try getting a girl to talk to you then... Sorry, we ALL had it fucking rough in highschool.

WAAAAH WAAH WAAHH....
Did we "all" retrieve our unattedned bookbag only to find it full of dog shit?

Thanks for your support. :roll:

Cyranno DeBoberac
03-22-2005, 03:13 PM
It seems that more than any thing there are people out there who threaten to hurt people in their schools for attention.

I was suspended for "making threats" in 8th grade along with two other friends. And the kicker is the fact that we were not talking of any thing like this, we were venting about the bull shit that happens in our school. So some one over heard us and took it worng and told the principal. I was suspended for a week and was required to take a violence possiblity test(wich I passed with an incredably low score) and then a explusion hearing where the vice pricnicpal told me that if he saw me with my best friend(she was suspended with me) that I would be suspended again. It's five years laterand teachers still look at me funny.

Yeah, well overreacting to a problem is always easier than trying to solve it. :roll:

Dmitri
03-22-2005, 03:27 PM
Did we "all" retrieve our unattedned bookbag only to find it full of dog shit?

Thanks for your support. :roll:[/quote]

Book bag comes clean... or spend $10 and get a new one... try dealing with patches of you hair falling out like some cancer patient...

We could sit here with the "my HS years were worse than yours"... Buck up little camper... HS is OVER...

Please... my WAAAAAH WAAHHH stands...

Adriana Rose
03-22-2005, 03:28 PM
Better fricken belive it!

Dragonfly
03-22-2005, 03:34 PM
:roll:
You can't yell at other people for doing what you're doing yourself...

Besides, I wasn't looking for sympathy. It was by means of explaining where I was coming from on the topic. If I had been then the person I am now, this never would've gone past day 2.

Dmitri
03-22-2005, 04:25 PM
:roll:
You can't yell at other people for doing what you're doing yourself...

Besides, I wasn't looking for sympathy. It was by means of explaining where I was coming from on the topic. If I had been then the person I am now, this never would've gone past day 2.

and if it DIDN'T happen you wouldn't BE the person you are now...

this song is perfect for this, especially the ending:



This Is Who You Are
-Trans-Siberian Orchestra

Sometimes, Slowly
Time brings revelation

Waiting, Softly
For someone to believe

That the ghosts we've hidden or left to die
Have now arisen and will arrive
To say what has happened
Say what has happened
Say what has happened
To me

And who would have thought
That you'd be the one
That i would have found here waiting

Lost in this night
Until you arrived
And always too blind to see

And who would have thought
That after this time
That i'd be the one you're saving

Now undisguised
The ghosts that survive
Now say what was meant to be

I never wanted to give my life away
Who ever thought it would matter any way

Wandering inside this night
Finding pieces of a life
Never sure i'd ever know what it means

It's the strangers in your life
That you'd never thought you'd meet
It's the hand that picked you up
When you're laying in the street

It's the hand that cut you down
It's the dream that someone shared
When you thought that all was lost
It's the friend that wasn't there

You can run from all the memory
But never get that far
For in the end they'll find you
For this is who you are

Change one note
Change one line
Nothing's going to be the same
Change one loss
Change one cut
Everything is re-arranged

Every act
Cruel or kind
Lost inside our memory
If you look
There in time

You'll find it in
Find it in
Find it in
You'll find it in me

Lady Laurel
03-22-2005, 04:42 PM
I like it Dimitri :!: :!:
I want to believe that I am a better person because off all the crapp that happened. My mother used to say take those lemons and make lemonade honey. :wink: :lol:

Mylilpinkpig
03-22-2005, 06:34 PM
Bullying maybe a contributing factor of what lead this kid to do this but its hardly the only reason. He lives in a poverty stricten reservation, his father committed suicide, his mother is in a nursing home with brain injuries, and he was thrown out of school for "violating school policy". This kid desperately needed counseling and maybe if he got it years ago when his father committed suicide, this could have been prevented.

Dragonfly
03-22-2005, 10:52 PM
and if it DIDN'T happen you wouldn't BE the person you are now...


This is also truth.
I like the song.

Galleywench
03-22-2005, 11:22 PM
Sadly, Buxom... very few people in this current, lenient society realize that "parent" is a VERBas well as noun. :evil:

Bravo!!! Well said :)

rosefaeries
03-23-2005, 09:37 AM
I know that this was way back in teh converstaion, but what about neutering those that have proven that they can't parent? I think that the parents should be punished for their chrildren's deeds. I think that as the responsilble party, it is their fault that this happens. I don't care what you do, there should always be enough time for parenting. I also blame a HUGE part of this on the Latch Key children in life. There is WAY too much un-supervised time on these children's hands.

Publish the names of every child that gets kicked out of school for weapons. Make a HUGE deal of it. Hold the parents accountable, and you know what, maybe we would have frewer fuck-ups in our society. Lets hand a little bit of accountability back to people. It isn't the system, it isn't the schools, IT"S YOU!


I disagree with you on this. We had a shooting here in Thurston Oregon. The parents tried for years to get help for their son. No help was provided because he hadn't broken the law yet.....

If I am held accountable for my children's actions then allow me to deal with them as I see fit. Do not interfere as long as I am not harming them. Parents are afraid to discipline their children because it is considered child abuse. Blaming the parents totally for what happened doesn't solve anything. My oldest son had issues. I couldn't get help for him where we were living at. I ended up sending him to live with my mother. In order to save my son, I had to give him up. (By the way, he graduated high school with straight A's, over $5,000 in scholarships and.....an Eagle Scout.) But while I still had him, I fought to get him the help he needed.

emalia
03-23-2005, 09:51 AM
I disagree with you on this. We had a shooting here in Thurston Oregon. The parents tried for years to get help for their son. No help was provided because he hadn't broken the law yet.....

If I am held accountable for my children's actions then allow me to deal with them as I see fit. Do not interfere as long as I am not harming them. Parents are afraid to discipline their children because it is considered child abuse. Blaming the parents totally for what happened doesn't solve anything. My oldest son had issues. I couldn't get help for him where we were living at. I ended up sending him to live with my mother. In order to save my son, I had to give him up. (By the way, he graduated high school with straight A's, over $5,000 in scholarships and.....an Eagle Scout.) But while I still had him, I fought to get him the help he needed.

But you did what needed to be done. I am all for disciplining your children. I truly believe that there is nothing wrong about tanning your child's hide. I do not mean beating them black and blue, but turn that child over your knee, pull down their pants and spank them till it stings.. IT will hurt you more than them. I was spanked, and I don't EVER think that I was abused. My butt was NEVER black and BLUE, it was NEVER split. It never truly HURT, but it did sting like the bees, and what was worse.. It made my parents CRY! That was the worse part.

I have said it before, I will say it again, they are children, and should be treated as such until they can EARN the right not to be treated like children. They are NOT little adults, and they are NOT little Hitlers. My house, MY rules. They need consistancy, discipline, and positive attention. Not screaming at. They understand what we are asking of them, it just needs to be enforced. I have had my mouth washed out with soap more times than I can count. What did it teach me? Don't mouth off to my parents and not to curse in front of my grandmother.

Privledgfes such as the television, radio, computers and games are to be earned and kept. It wouldn't bother me one bit to take them away from a child as punishment until it can be earned back.

Call me tough, call me what you want. But children are not delicate little flowers.

Phoenix McHeit
03-23-2005, 11:12 AM
. My house, MY rules. They need consistancy, discipline, and positive attention. Not screaming at. They understand what we are asking of them, it just needs to be enforced. I have had my mouth washed out with soap more times than I can count. What did it teach me? Don't mouth off to my parents and not to curse in front of my grandmother.

Privledgfes such as the television, radio, computers and games are to be earned and kept. It wouldn't bother me one bit to take them away from a child as punishment until it can be earned back.

Call me tough, call me what you want. But children are not delicate little flowers.

Bravo! As most of you know - I do have children... 4 boys, very close in age, to be exact. I've been raising them on my own for 7+ years now. No, they're not perfect, but as many of the wenches on this board can tell you - they are well-behaved.

Guess why? I spank. I punish. I take away priviledges. I enforce MY rules. Ya know what else? I adore them. And they know it. They also know they can come to me with issues and/or problems they face, and I'll back them IF THEY'RE RIGHT.

Just because its 'my child' doesn't mean they can do no wrong. I've seen many parents out there who play the blame-game. "Little Johnny lashed out because somebody ELSE messed up." (Fill in appropriate scenario here) Guess what babe - Johnny lashed out cuz he chose to. And yes, I realize all kids have tempers...and impulse-control ain't reserved for those with diagnosed (or not) problems. Children are impulsive. Bingo, End of story. Its the Parent's Job to teach their child what is acceptable and what's not. I have a saying that I need to repeat every so often to my boys: "Its perfectly ok to be mad; its NOT ok to be rude."

Another thing... my guys are growing up to be very resiliant, self-reliant young men. Scrapes happen, falls happen (hell one even had a broken arm to deal with) Mom's kiss on the boo-boo usually fixes it. The last time I had my kids to a doctor (not counting annual check-ups) was over 2 years ago. They get the sniffles? I hand em a tissue & give em a hug. NOT a trip to the doc. OTC meds were good enough for my mom... and I hardly think I suffered for it. My guys come in filthy during spring, summer, and fall (and soaked in winter) - but they come in flushed from exercise and happiness.

We're creating germ-phobic little bacteria-farms. Fer cryin out loud, being exposed to minor germs BOOSTS the immune system! If ya kill every teensy little microbe they come in contact with, what's the system gonna do when something BIG comes along? Criminy.

*whew* End of Rant.

I'Cin
03-23-2005, 04:02 PM
My oldest daughter Heather was in about 5th grade and was in the "after-care" at the catholic school she attended. For whatever reason, there were 2 8th grade girls there as well (I later figured out it was b/c they didn't trust them at home alone). The 8th graders were both bigger than me. Heather kept telling me that they were bullying the littler kids, including her, and would trap them in the bathroom and knock them down and kick them, or just hit them. My daughter tried telling the teacher. Then I tried talking to the after-care staff and nothing seemed to change -- until the day I was in there with the mother of one of the girls (who I happened to know b/c the girl had been in my brownie troop as a third grader).

With her mother standing there while we discussed the problem (oh, my daughter would never. . . .), this girl tried to kick one of hte kids and kicked my son (who was about 2nd grade). When I asked what the HELL she thought she was doing, she then said I'm sorry I didn't mean to kick HIM. Mom: Oh, kids will be kids. Which is when I told Heather in front of hte mom and the after-care teacher, that if she saw either of the two girls touch ANYBODY, she was to scream as though she was being killed, pick up the hardest thing she could find and beat them with it while continuing to scream. I also told the older kids standing around to help her if it happened because if the school and the parents wouldn't take care of it, they could. The adults were shocked that I would tell my daughter that. I then pointed out that the next thing would be lawsuits when either or both of my kids came home with ANY mark that could be remotely traced to the aftercare and/or those girls. There was not another incident that I knew about anyway. And the 8th graders found someplace else to be after school.

It might not have been the best answer, but for the time and place it seemed to be good enough. In a bit of irony, I realized a couple of months ago that the neighbors across the street from my new house is that mother and father. He waves at me, she doesn't and I had wondered why . . . .

I'Cin