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Nevada
05-19-2005, 10:26 AM
okay...as a private school it can do what it wants..agreed..but in all fairness if she wasnt listed or allowed to walk why was the father? Punish the mother but not the father ttthhh!!!

Pregnant student defies graduation ban
Thursday, May 19, 2005 Posted: 7:02 AM EDT (1102 GMT)



MONTGOMERY, Alabama (AP) -- A pregnant student who was banned from graduation at her Roman Catholic high school announced her own name and walked across the stage anyway at the close of the program.

Alysha Cosby's decision prompted cheers and applause Tuesday from many of her fellow seniors at St. Jude Educational Institute.

But her mother and aunt were escorted out of the church by police after Cosby headed back to her seat.

"I can't believe something like this is happening in 2005," said her mother, Sheila Cosby. "My daughter has been through a lot and I am proud of her. She deserved to walk, and she did."

The school's guidance counselor delivered Cosby's degree to her house earlier Tuesday, but she still wanted to participate.

"I worked hard throughout high school and I wanted to walk with my class," she said.

Cosby was told in March that she could no longer attend school because of safety concerns, and her name was not listed in the graduation program.

The father of Cosby's child, also a senior at the school, was allowed to participate in graduation.

Brigid
05-19-2005, 10:37 AM
right, why was the father allowed to walk and she wasn't, didn't he break the same "rule" she did?They both had premarital sex right, so isn't that an equal sin? I'm not catholic, so i don't claim to understand, but that is just unfair.
this is one reason, i'm not becoming catholic, much to the dismay of my bf and his best friend (who was just ordained this past weekend). i'll stick to my communing with nature

Eric McTavish
05-19-2005, 10:39 AM
right, why was the father allowed to walk and she wasn't, didn't he break the same "rule" she did?

Because women are the carriers of original sin and therefore inherently sinful and the seducers of good moral men... :roll:

Brigid
05-19-2005, 10:46 AM
Ok, now i'm confused, maybe becuase I got my self kicked out of more than one college class on religions, but isn't original sin the sin that was commited by adam? or a consequence of the first "stain" on humanity? I do like to understand these things, religion is an interesting topic.

Lady Sarah
05-19-2005, 10:51 AM
Christianity, in it's effort to convert the followers of the Sacred Feminine to Christianity, put Eve as the quintessential root of all evil. Everything was hunky dory until Eve ate the apple and then convinced Adam to do the same.

I see it as Eve was a groundbreaker, a rule pusher. She asked the most damning question of all - "Why?" and made up her own mind. Regardless, females have been impuned ever since.

KissMeKate
05-19-2005, 11:07 AM
Cosby was told in March that she could no longer attend school because of safety concerns, and her name was not listed in the graduation program.


Safety concerns? :hmm: I'm sure some of that could be valid, like their insurance wouldn't cover her if she fell or something. Or was it to keep her from contaminating the other students with pregnancy germs or thoughts? Cause it doesn't work that way, we all know that it's in the water, not the air. :P

But to take her off of the graduation program if she had finished all of the requirements and been given her diploma? I admire her for standing up for her right to show her community that she had graduated with everyone else.

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 11:14 AM
right, why was the father allowed to walk and she wasn't, didn't he break the same "rule" she did?

Cuz momma sez pregant wimmens is da DEBUL!!!!

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 11:15 AM
Christianity, in it's effort to convert the followers of the Sacred Feminine to Christianity, put Eve as the quintessential root of all evil. Everything was hunky dory until Eve ate the apple and then convinced Adam to do the same.

I see it as Eve was a groundbreaker, a rule pusher. She asked the most damning question of all - "Why?" and made up her own mind. Regardless, females have been impuned ever since.

Remember Adam's first wife was more *evil* than Eve...

Brigid
05-19-2005, 11:25 AM
lillith was adams "first wife" right? but what did she do, that part i don't remember.

Lady Sarah
05-19-2005, 11:27 AM
lillith was adams "first wife" right? but what did she do, that part i don't remember.

Considering I'm not a theology expert... but, I've got a parody on the WWJD schtick that ran amok a few years ago.

"What Would Lilith Do? Make mad passionate love to them... and then kill them in their sleep."

She's also considered (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) in popular culture to be the mother of all vampires... like I said, if that's wrong, please correct me.

Eric McTavish
05-19-2005, 11:30 AM
She's also considered (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) in popular culture to be the mother of all vampires... like I said, if that's wrong, please correct me.

Nope, your right,

AnnaFaerie
05-19-2005, 11:34 AM
Double post.....sorry about that.

AnnaFaerie
05-19-2005, 11:34 AM
Christianity, in it's effort to convert the followers of the Sacred Feminine to Christianity, put Eve as the quintessential root of all evil. Everything was hunky dory until Eve ate the apple and then convinced Adam to do the same.

I see it as Eve was a groundbreaker, a rule pusher. She asked the most damning question of all - "Why?" and made up her own mind. Regardless, females have been impuned ever since.

Here are my thoughts on this "bad Eve" idea. Yes....I've shared my thoughts with the pastor of my church. He thinks it is an interesting theory.

The bible says Eve was tricked by the serpent. It say that Eve told Adam the fruit was good and he ate it. Hmmmm........Eve was tricked.....Adam was just easy. Now....why would the men that translated the stories in the bible have a problem with this idea? *laughing* It is food for thought.

Lady Laurel
05-19-2005, 11:37 AM
What Would Lilith Do? Make mad passionate love to them... and then kill them in their sleep."

She's also considered (and please, correct me if I'm wrong) in popular culture to be the mother of all vampires... like I said, if that's wrong, please correct me.

Okay.. I am confused now. I have been in Bible ( Doctorine) classes most of my life. I have not heard of this Lillith. Is this from a different religion. What I have studdied there is Adam and Eve. First man and women. Eve to me exercised Free Will. ( The Why? question) If you believe that everything is preordained, this was the plan all along and she is not "evil". She just thought differently than Adam.
Early Orthodox religion did portray Eve as "evil" but that was not the case at all.

Brigid
05-19-2005, 11:40 AM
I do know that lilith is more of a judaic "legend" and is sometimes portryed as the serpent. She doesn' t make much if any of an apperance in the Catholic bibles.

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 11:45 AM
From Vel, resident Lilith expert:

according to some gnostic texts....

Lilith (aka whore of bablyon to some) was adam's 1st wife in that she volunteered to be his mate when Adam complained to god that he was lonely.* She refused to be submissive to him however, becuz she felt he was an inferior species, so when he tried to subjugate her, she fled.* god sent angels to bring her back, but she started copulated with other daemons (not necessarily evil dark horned things... Daemon means a spirit) to show how her contempt & how she wouldn't be told what to do. god then made a woman right before Adam, but Adam was so disgusted at having seen her made that she had to be sent away.* god then pouts the pansy to sleep, took a ribbone, fashioned woman FROM him so that he wouldnt be disgusted then there was Eve all perfect & pretty when he woke up. Lilith came back later, saw this creature made in her likeness,. & got annoyed that she was "under" him, so she told Eve that the fruit of knowledge would awaken her...which it did, but then she realized she was lonely without adam, so shared it with him (never Lilith's intent).* Of course, man blamed woman for disobedience then, the road to hell & good intentions, yadda yadda.

Nevada
05-19-2005, 11:46 AM
Many sections of the bible are missing or been rewritten....but I believe Lillith is still mentioned in Jewish literature...

Ysobelle
05-19-2005, 12:11 PM
Um...they didn't mention her in MY Sunday School. Though if they had, it would have explained a LOT.

Isabelle Warwicke
05-19-2005, 12:32 PM
Thank you Dmitri! Eve was indeed Adam's third wife. Lillith was cast out due to refusing to be submissive. You can find her in the Apocrypha, I believe. She is found in Jewish texts also, but I forget exactly where at the moment. Lots of stuff has been taken out of the bible becasue it was deemed innapropriate or outdated of the course of history. Hell look at out own constituion and how many time we've "ammended" it. They ammended the bible too through deletion.
I'd like to read the whole thing and make my own descisions for myself thankyouverymuch. Unfortunately that tkaes much research, searching and a life long commitment.

Eve was framed.

Lady Laurel
05-19-2005, 12:35 PM
D- I have never ever heard of this. Can you ask her what book of the Bible this came from. I am very curious. I want to run this by one of my professors.

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 12:40 PM
Thank you Dmitri!

Don't thank ME... Thank Vel... She's the one who schooled *me* about Lilith...

Lady Laurel
05-19-2005, 12:42 PM
Thank you Dmitri! Eve was indeed Adam's third wife. Lillith was cast out due to refusing to be submissive. You can find her in the Apocrypha, I believe. She is found in Jewish texts also, but I forget exactly where at the moment. Lots of stuff has been taken out of the bible becasue it was deemed innapropriate or outdated of the course of history. Hell look at out own constituion and how many time we've "ammended" it. They ammended the bible too through deletion

3rd wife? You said this was from deletions of the Bible. Is this certain books that are found only in the Jewish texts. Yall have got me thinking I am very curious about this.
I wish my father was still alive he probably could tell me all about this. He studied the Bible and History all his life.

Bonnie Strangeways
05-19-2005, 12:42 PM
D- I have never ever heard of this. Can you ask her what book of the Bible this came from. I am very curious. I want to run this by one of my professors.

You won't find mention of it in the King James or contemporary editions. About the only place you'll find reference is in the Judaic. Check out this link: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/mythology/lilith.asp There are references in several cultures, and it lists two points of reference.

There are other cultures that hold to the belief of Lilith, more so that she was a Sucubus, or a Vampire, but most are consistant on the belieef that she rebelled against the power that be over subserviance.

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 12:59 PM
D- I have never ever heard of this. Can you ask her what book of the Bible this came from. I am very curious. I want to run this by one of my professors.

From Vel again (cursing that she doesn't have net access at work):

"I learned a lot of this from a banned books class. And to be a smart ass I decided to do my thesis on the Gnostic Gospels...

I got in way over my head because I didn't realize how much info was out there. However, a good starting place is Elaine Pagelís "Gnostic Gospels", which is a short easy read on an extensive subject. I really can't remember the other sourcebooks I used, sorry. The gnostic gospels were discovered as sheafs of paper in a cavern in Nag Hamadi, Egypt in 1945. Some of those sheafs were destroyed, the rest have been circulated on the black market.

New texts are being discovered/yanked from markets, translated, etc over time. There are many books on the subject, and they even had to invent a special UV camera to read the pages that are stuck together.

The Vatican (of course) had tried to suppress these discoveries for a long time, but the cat's out of the bag. these texts show that two distinct sects of Christianity existed in early times...the orthodox & the gnostics. The gnostics believed god was within and you had to know yourself in order to know god because he was reflected in each of us (kind of like "Know Thyself" in Delphi Oracle, no?) The orthodox thought this theory was narcissistic and blasphemous. They also had the backing of the state, so they forced gnostics underground.

History is (re)written by the winners, (in this case the orthodox) and the result is the bible you all know today. Understand that it has been translated, edited, omitted, re-edited, etc. over time. Hence why I freak at people who take the bible LITERALLY as opposed to in FAITH."

Margaret
05-19-2005, 01:07 PM
From Vel again (cursing that she doesn't have net access at work):


First off D, let her know we curse that fact too. We miss her!!!

And thank her for the information too. And to yourself for being her secretary :wink:

Lady Laurel
05-19-2005, 01:20 PM
Thank you Dimitri, and Bonnie,
I have since started searching on the internet for information.
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

I am calling the library at lunch looking for that one and for the one you told me about Dimitri. If not the library I will have to search the net.
You have to understand I went to Christian Private School that taught strictly from the Bible and from Jewish texts ( albeiet not as much as I would have liked) In college I have taken religion classes on the Bible.
My father talked about many sects that were around in the Babalonian times. ( Orthodox as you call it) which he says is the roots of Catholisism.

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 01:39 PM
Christianity, on the whole... IMHO is evil. More people have died or spilled human blood in the name of Christiandom that most religions put together. (Crusades, Inquistion, Native Americans at the hands of Missionaries)

Now I don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah... But I do believe that if more people lived their lives by his teachings of peace and tolerance, that we'd be a better world...

Emrld
05-19-2005, 01:44 PM
Another side note on Lillith -
This is something I heard somewhere - a long while back, so I don't know how true it is but it sounds good so I will share
The character Lillith on Cheers was given that name because of the religous based person named Lillith - independent - did her own thing - knew herself well - etc.

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 01:49 PM
Another side note on Lillith -
This is something I heard somewhere - a long while back, so I don't know how true it is but it sounds good so I will share
The character Lillith on Cheers was given that name because of the religous based person named Lillith - independent - did her own thing - knew herself well - etc.

Always found Bebe Neuwirth frelling HOT!!!

Dmitri
05-19-2005, 03:26 PM
From Vel again (cursing that she doesn't have net access at work):


First off D, let her know we curse that fact too. We miss her!!!

And thank her for the information too. And to yourself for being her secretary :wink:

Quoth the Veldrina:

"tell them no prob, & that i miss them too...and if they wanna support the "Help Vel get a job where she can be on internet during the day" Fund, I have an address for donations..."

Bonnie Strangeways
05-19-2005, 03:30 PM
Yes, but I need her where she is at to help me a other Vets out. *giggle*

I'm kidding...no spankings!!!!

Seriously though, thank her for the info, I will enjoy discussing theology with her at a later date!

daBaroness
05-20-2005, 12:09 AM
I don't really give a fat rat's ass about the theology or religion of it - it's discriminatory and it just makes me damned mad that the double-standard of pregnancy is still so alive and well in 2005. Not only will the father get to receive his diploma and the recognition that goes with it - he'll also get to go off to college or to the military or whatever without so much as a concern about how he's going to pursue whatever he wants.

The girl/mother on the other hand wasn't allowed to receive her diploma in public because of the shame it brings to her and the school. Her entire future is now forever altered - whether she keeps the child and gives up her dreams and educational future; whether she keeps the child and has to get her education while being a young mother and perhaps working; or if she gives up the child in an adoption, but carries that child in her heart the rest of her life. Even if she keeps the child and the boy/father is ordered to pay child support, chances are she won't get much help from him - even financially, especially if he goes to school.

But, the things schools continue to do still just floor me - don't know why this one surprises me at all in its ignorance.

Jessa
05-21-2005, 01:14 AM
The early Catholic church selectively edited existing texts in order to protray women as unimportant, inferior, and even evil. This was done because they had strong backing and involvement from the Roman Empire at the time. Rome saw Christianity growing in popularity, so rather than try to crush it (they knew this wouldn't work), they "embraced" it and bent it to the purpose of controlling the population.

An age-old technique for controlling a group of people is to divide them, telling one half that the other is inferior, and that the superior half gets to rule over them. The oppressed group then lacks the power to resist. The "superior" group is pacified by having power over others, and kept busy enforcing thier power so that they, too, cannot resist the overridnig power that started the whole thing.

This systematic opression is the ultimate motivation behind state-sponsored scapegoating, include Roman Catholic sexism, Nazism, and many others.

Psyche
05-21-2005, 09:22 AM
I actually first learned about Lilith from my Catholic priest, of all people. He believed in teaching the *true* meaning of Christianity versus what people assume the true meaning is. He is the only reason I stayed with the hurch as long as I did.

Grania Greenleaf
05-21-2005, 01:39 PM
Okay, maybe this is being nitpickily curious, but did Adam's second wife, whom he rejected, have a name?

Myfanawy
05-21-2005, 03:32 PM
On a slight side-note...there's a great book called The Harlot By the Side of the Road, by Jonathan Kirsch. Here's a description from Amazon:

"From Library Journal
Kirsch, an attorney and book critic, retells some of the juicier stories of the Bible in contemporary language. He expands upon the original biblical text to make the stories highly readable and includes with each the original text in modern translation and a brief sketch of the scholarly research and the speculation surrounding it. For those to whom Bible stories suggest "Disneyesque animals and simple uplifting moral lessons," this book may be a bit of a shock. Kirsch shows that the Bible is not a children's book. Then, as now, rape, incest, prostitution, murder, and strange religious cults were a part of life. As Kirsch says, "The Bible is a map of the human heart, and no secret chamber or hidden passage is left out." Kirsch contends that returning to the Bible can offer insight into modern issues. Mostly, however, he offers an irresistible popularization of some unfamiliar stories. Some readers will enjoy it; others will be highly offended."

Incidentally....though I don't consider myself to hold any specific religious beliefs at this point, I was raised Christian (a variety of churches....Epicopal, Eastern orthodox...), and I just thought this was amusing: when I was chrismated (the Eastern Orthodox equivalent of confirmation), instead of picking the virgin Mary as my patron saint, I picked Mary Magdalene. All the little old Russian ladies at the church were highly scandalized!!! :twisted:
--M

daBaroness
05-30-2005, 06:01 PM
Since we've gone slightly off-topic anyway - I thought I'd share this:

Several years ago (and since I'm now counting in mentalpause years - it could be two or 15) ... there was a program on PBS that was a several-parter ... covering the life and role of women in the Roman Catholic church from the very beginning - focusing particularly on nuns.

Interestingly - prior to all the changes that took place during several upheavals in the church - like when the church divided into east and west - Rome being the center for the western church, Constantinople for the eastern ... with two popes and a lot of variation in governance (including the fact that even today, priests who are of eastern orthodox orders rather than Roman Catholic are allowed to marry); the creation of canon law, etc., women who chose to be nuns were actually far more emancipated and forward-thinking than their secular counterparts.

At one time - it was the women themselves who governed their own orders without interference from men - including the pope. Women cloistered in convents were the mistresses of their own destinies - they legislated and followed their own rules; worshipped as they saw fit - ministering to one another rather than falling under the domination of a male figurehead or clergy member; devoting themselves to various social ministries of their choosing - all in direct service to God, untranslated by men. In many ways - they had more autonomy from church hierarchy than did men who chose the priesthood/monastic lifestyles.

Then at some point - their male counterparts - particularly cardinals and bishops who had huge political influence in most European governments, especially during the Dark Ages and beyond, realized the "girls" weren't playing by their rules and must be herded up and forced into compliance and subserviance to male governance. The virtual female utopia that had existed within many of the orders was abruptly ended. Surely God hadn't meant women to govern themselves - and men - priests, bishops, cardinals and the pope stepped in a took over in short order.

I remember thinking to myself as I watched several of the installments, that back then - choosing a life as a nun was probably the most feminist, independent and forward-looking direction a woman could take - particularly in a time when the only true purpose a woman served was to produce the next generation. Women, no matter their social station - were simply breeding stock. In my way of 21st century thinking - it would be a most dismal and unfulfilling life. So women of faith - at least the Catholic onces - were probably a pretty brainy, self-sufficient, independent lot whose service to God and mankind was not a burden, but a release and freedom from the existing conventions.

It's a bit interesting to me, even today, to think about a group of smart, nurturing, caring, soulful women living in a spiritual community of like-minded women focused on their own and one anothers' spiritual, physical and mental growth and using those gifts to better the greater community. Imagine what the lot of us could accomplish in like circumstances. I'll bet we'd move mountains and then some!