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Selena
09-16-2009, 08:48 AM
Anyone else think he's really said (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/15/carter_claims_there_is_racist_tone_against_obama.h tml)what's really going on out there? Long before Obama was even considered for the job, much less elected, I've said I didn't think this country was ready for a "black" (even though half white) president. I'm really ashamed of this country for being so ass backwards just because of the color of the man's skin.

Taffy Saltwater
09-16-2009, 09:00 AM
Anyone else think he's really said (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2009/09/15/carter_claims_there_is_racist_tone_against_obama.h tml)what's really going on out there? Long before Obama was even considered for the job, much less elected, I've said I didn't think this country was ready for a "black" (even though half white) president. I'm really ashamed of this country for being so ass backwards just because of the color of the man's skin.

God help me, I was unaware of the deep underlying currents of racism running through this country until Obama was voted in.I'm Hispanic and have personally been made painfully aware that yes there is racism still around.

I'm proud to say that myself, both sisters, BIL's, mom, son, & niece voted for Obama. I'd be inclined to vote for him again even if he really fucks up just to keep the republicans out of power. They have shown their true colors. It says a lot about how sick the population is of the pubs that a black man was voted in.

daBaroness
09-16-2009, 10:15 AM
I have biracial sons. I know racism is alive and well in this country. I don't think anyone is more surprised at the election of Obama than people of color. But let's not forget - racism is equal-opportunity, irrational loathing and ignorance - it's definitely not just white and (on) black. I've been equally astounded at the comments about my children from black folks as I have white.

I actually prefer the term "race consciousness." As long as we're more focused on the differences between people that seperate us than those things we share that ought to unite us - we all pretty much suck.

Mylilpinkpig
09-16-2009, 11:15 AM
Racism still exists but I think by electing an African- American president we showed that the majority of this country isn't racist. But sadly, racism is still around and rears its ugly head once again. I equate Joe Wilson with Kanye West.. a rude. ill mannered attention seeking jerk.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-16-2009, 12:03 PM
Really? What Joe Wilson said wasn't rooted racist, IMHO. What Kanye West did was. How's that for a flip side?

And why the hell is Jimmy Carter still considered relevant today?

And just for a moment, let me be very clear. We have a BI-RACIAL president. I am sick of everyone calling him Black. He's also half white and was raised by a white woman.

letitfly
09-16-2009, 12:12 PM
Doesn't Jimmy remember that this country elected Obama? This country that he thinks is so racist? I liked Carter at one point but wish he would just shut up at this point.

Conall Crow
09-16-2009, 12:48 PM
If what Joe Wilson said is racist, Then does that mean everyone on Both sides that said the others were Liars are also racist?? Wouldn't that include several of us here?? IMHO, I don't think any of them were racist, though I do admit it is still around today.

And as others here have mentioned, If this country is still so racist, then how was Obama elected in the first place?


Really? What Joe Wilson said wasn't rooted racist, IMHO. What Kanye West did was. How's that for a flip side?

And why the hell is Jimmy Carter still considered relevant today?

And just for a moment, let me be very clear. We have a BI-RACIAL president. I am sick of everyone calling him Black. He's also half white and was raised by a white woman.

Selena
09-16-2009, 01:10 PM
If what Joe Wilson said is racist, Then does that mean everyone on Both sides that said the others were Liars are also racist?? Wouldn't that include several of us here?? IMHO, I don't think any of them were racist, though I do admit it is still around today.

And as others here have mentioned, If this country is still so racist, then how was Obama elected in the first place?

I disagree in part.

Just look at these teabagger protests/town halls. They're protesting everything under the sun, there's no organization for thought on what they want. They want "their country back." Back from what? They are disjointed and are getting very violent. And you can look at that 30% of the Bush-era supporters that we're talking about. Never did I say the entire nation was racist, but yes, there are some people who merely judge him by his skin color. Bi-racial? Please. People like that... all they still see is "black".

Remember, Joe Wilson was one of the ones who publicly disputed that a woman of black skin color could ever be the biological daughter of white skinned Strom Thurman. Anyone care to bet that if the woman had white skin, he wouldn't have had a problem with it? As if it was any of his concern anyway.

My father's side of the family is from SC. I see blatant racism there that I usually don't see here in Austin. I have members of my own family who are very racist. Hell, even my own grandmother used to refer to the black culture as "darkies", a term I'd never heard until I was around 10 years old... and out of her mouth. (Yeah, I know different times, but still... it's passed onto the next generations in many cases.)

And while Carter is a former president, he's still a former president of this country and has been in Obama's shoes. He's got a lifetime of witnessing racial divides in the south, so I do have to give some attention to what he has to say.

Phoenix McHeit
09-16-2009, 01:28 PM
If what Joe Wilson said is racist, Then does that mean everyone on Both sides that said the others were Liars are also racist??

I don't think Carter meant *what* was said, but just *where* and *when* it was said.

I mean, not that Wilson called him a liar, but that he did it so loudly and disrespectfully (calling someone a liar can't be done respectfully, I know) on the House Floor.

I know there have been other instances of a President being disrespected in a similar manner and I think it's boorish, no matter who does it or to whom it's done. But I also think the country is becoming hyper-sensitive to rudeness because of Obama's racial heritage.

A white guy being rude to a white guy is nothing, or barely merits a blip on the late night comedy sketches. Same with black on black. But white on black or vice versa gets attention. ESPECIALLY if one is Prez.

Assassination threats against Obama are up 400% !!!
http://thisweekwithbarackobama.blogspot.com/2009/09/assassination-threats-up-400-per-secret.html

Wouldn't that make anybody a tad jumpy and thin-skinned? You can't tell me that high an increase is because of policy.

Katie O'Connell
09-16-2009, 05:36 PM
Actually, yeah, I did think Carter nailed it.

Which of course means that I must be guilty of some sort of profiling.

When I heard the story, I noted the state and political affiliation of the offending party and thought this lapse in decurum and respect for the Office was very probably racially motivated.

Maybe deep down, unspoken and hidden as well as possible, but I can certainly believe it's there, ingrained by both familial and environmental forces in the deep South.

Now, I'm not saying everyone who lives in the Southern US is racist, but seeing as that was where slavery had it's golden age, I can't help but feel that these sort of feelings run really really deep in some families (on both sides), and I don't think halvsies make much of a differnce - to some people, being half black and half white is seen as being even less desireable.

But then...I'm a stinkin' Yankee, so what do I know? :snicker:

letitfly
09-16-2009, 08:42 PM
Actually, yeah, I did think Carter nailed it.

Which of course means that I must be guilty of some sort of profiling.

When I heard the story, I noted the state and political affiliation of the offending party and thought this lapse in decurum and respect for the Office was very probably racially motivated.

Maybe deep down, unspoken and hidden as well as possible, but I can certainly believe it's there, ingrained by both familial and environmental forces in the deep South.

Now, I'm not saying everyone who lives in the Southern US is racist, but seeing as that was where slavery had it's golden age, I can't help but feel that these sort of feelings run really really deep in some families (on both sides), and I don't think halvsies make much of a differnce - to some people, being half black and half white is seen as being even less desireable.

But then...I'm a stinkin' Yankee, so what do I know? :snicker:
De Tocqueville observed that "race prejudice seems stronger in those states that have abolished slavery than in those where it still exists, and nowhere is it more intolerant than in those states where slavery was never known."


or a more recent traveler (maybe a little nutty):
http://creoleneworleans.typepad.com/creole_folks/2009/07/northern-states-more-racist-than-any-other-area-in-us.html



Yep, that would be profiling. I would call it elitism. It is long past time to give up your worn out image of southern racism. The south has been far more integrated than the north for a couple of generations. Only in PA do I see black kids being kicked out of pools, Skip Gates arrested in MA, NY police seem to frequently shooting blacks, Bostonians were burning school buses in the 70's, guessing the noose and swastika hanging in a tree of the black family that moved into Fairview, OH last week was just a misunderstood welcome wagon present. If you want to see integrated neighborhoods, visit almost any southern suburb; if you want to see lily white, visit northeastern 'burbs. My subdivision is about 50% northern transplants and it has been decades since I have heard southerners make the type of racist comments I routinely hear coming from the northerners and midwesterners sitting around the pool. Every state and region has racism and the racism goes in all directions.

Now about slavery. I didn't realize it had a "golden age"
(1. A period of great peace, prosperity, and happiness.) but every colony had slavery. Slavery was abolished in NJ in 1865, Rhode Island in 1842, NY about 1825, PA in 1845, CT in 1848. The north did not have anywhere as many slaves as the south because of different economies and because the British army penetrated most of the north, liberating slaves as it went. The blacks were often driven out of the area. Finally, slavery was a northern creation. Northern factories needed cheap cotton and northern ship captains brought in the slaves to pick the cotton.

Whew. But we will never know if he would have yelled that at a white president.

Selena
09-16-2009, 09:15 PM
It is long past time to give up your worn out image of southern racism.


We'd like you, tyvm. But how can we when it's always in our faces statisically? (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/crimestatistics.htm) Do you live in the South?

How can we when it's constantly happening, James Byrd (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/jasper/reaction/228334.html) comes to mind from Jasper, Tx?

How can we when it's happening to you? (I once had a problem in my high school from disapproving teachers and other students once because I decided to go on a "date" with a friend... a black guy. The public stares and whispering behind the back of once being in an interracial relationship.)

How can we when the KKK still has marches?

How can we when homes are being destroyed s (http://cbs11tv.com/local/Broderick.Gamble.hate.2.622165.html)imply because of one's race?


So tell me? I'm ready for a solution.

daBaroness
09-16-2009, 09:52 PM
You don't have to live in or be from the south to be racist. I believe at one time - not so very long ago - the (dubious) distinction of the highest enrollment in the KKK was held by Indiana. In many ways large cities in the south have done a far better job addressing racism than their northern counterparts. I grew up in Detroit in the 60s, and believe me - while segregation was illegal - it was strictly practiced in that city. The biggest controversy was school bussing to achieve racial equality within the Detroit school district. People in the white suburbs were terrified that their children would be bussed to the inner city. Bussing never happened there because you couldn't bus outside of the school district and it would have been pointless to send black kids from the east side to a black school on the north side.

I think there's a big distinction between racism and discrimination. The county has done a pretty fair job of legislating against discrimination and enforcing the laws. Discrimination is a product of racism - a symptom, if you will. And we've got a LONG way to go to erase the ugly spectre of racism because there's no way to gauge what's going on in someone's head if they're not physically acting up on. And racists have just gone underground - operating just slightly above the law - or calculatedly below it. The constitution is on their side in many cases - they have a right to assemble, a right to free speech, etc. They've got some very shrewd attorneys who know the laws inside and out so that they can legally push the emotional hot buttons of good people with impunity.

Same goes for Fred Phelps. Half of his family are attorneys (he was too until he was disbarred). They push the law to the nth degree and watch good people struggle helplessly against their brand of legal evil.

I also hate the fact that Obama has allowed the media to profile him as a black man. I personally think it's a slap in the fact to his mother and his grandparents. But my sons tell me (and I know they're correct) that if you are even a fraction discernably African-American (meaning darker skin), the world classifies you as black. So after a while, you quit fighting the bi-racial cause and just deal with it. I know when my son Cameron was a teen-ager having too many run-ins with the law - everything from traffic tickets to depositions referred to him as a black male. I remember the look on one redneck KC cop's face when I introduced myself to him as Cameron's mother. He about swallowed his gonads. And let me tell you - his uniform sleeves didn't fully cover the swastika tattoo he had on his bicep.

But I've heard enough from the other side of the fence for a lifetime, too. I've had to listen to my son's great aunt rail about what a rotten job white women are doing raising "their" children. I suppose I could have bitten my tongue off over that issue - but y'all know me - that wasn't happening. In the end, I helped her look at another side of things - but I know even Taylor's grandmother has made remarks about her grandson's white mother behind my back - and even to my face. Things my own parents would never say about people of color were freely flowing at my MIL's house. And I've worked in situations where black folks actually believed (because they told me so) that only white people could be racist. The looked a little puzzled when my response was, "are you KIDDING me? That statement is racist!"

And in this election - I've heard so many blacks yammer on and on about how great it would be to have a black president because "they'd finally get theirs." They weren't referring to respect or equal rights or anything so noble - they actually thought that Obama would single-handedly enact laws to give black people money and benefits. Not white folks, not Asians - just black people. Makes you wanna say WTF?, but I heard it a million times if I heard it once. My guess is these same people won't be at the polls voting for Obama in 2012. Instead, they'll be accusing him of being an Uncle Tom and giving into the white man. Whateverthefreakinhell that is!

Nope - racism in the world isn't over by a long shot. Not here in the U.S. Not in France or England or Iraq. Not in Mexico or India or Africa. We're just not that evolved.

letitfly
09-16-2009, 10:10 PM
We'd like you, tyvm. But how can we when it's always in our faces statisically? (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/crimestatistics.htm) Do you live in the South?

How can we when it's constantly happening, James Byrd (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/jasper/reaction/228334.html) comes to mind from Jasper, Tx?

How can we when it's happening to you? (I once had a problem in my high school from disapproving teachers and other students once because I decided to go on a "date" with a friend... a black guy. The public stares and whispering behind the back of once being in an interracial relationship.)

How can we when the KKK still has marches?

How can we when homes are being destroyed s (http://cbs11tv.com/local/Broderick.Gamble.hate.2.622165.html)imply because of one's race?


So tell me? I'm ready for a solution.

TEXAS? Ain't southern to us up here. It has been Western for a long time. Or southwestern. Or just uniquely Texas. They have cowboys and cacti. You ever see a cowboy in Virginia.
I go to Texas occasionally and don't feel like I am in the south at all.

Yes, live in the south and part time in Quebec but definitely southern though I just found out today that a couple of my friends think I am ok for a yankee.

Klan: There are klan marches all over the country, not just in the south. You ever see a Klan march. Its 10 or 12 imbeciles shuffling down the street with 2000 counter protesters. I have only known one person that was in the klan and he was a member for a week or two in the 50's. Of course, it is a secret society so maybe I know some but don't know it.
I am kind of googled out but if you do some googling, I think you will find that the stronghold of the klan has been Indiana and today it is shifting to Michigan. I think a few years ago, PA had one of the larger klan groups. To get a handle on it, you need to read about Storm Front, the various Aryan groups, White Knights as a lot don't use KKK anymore. They are growing in Canada, Australia and Europe.

Statistics. They lie. I think that when there is white on black violence in the south, it is immediately assumed to be racist and chalked up as a hate crime. When it happens in other regions, it is just a crime.

I live in the south. There are interracial couples, young and old, all over the place and no one gives them a glance. There are a few in my subdivision, including a gay couple around the corner and the only people that I have heard mention them were from the north and not really in a negative manner. Their kids seem to have no problems fitting in. It would not have been that way in 1975 but the world does change faster than, I see, northern sectional bigotry. But we don't care, we have the jobs, the bucks and a recovering economy and y'all got a bunch of snow and rust. (Actually, it is horrible here, we are all the time burning crosses, raising hell, it ishot, humid, we talk funny. Stay up north, its got to be better ther)

letitfly
09-16-2009, 10:15 PM
And just for a moment, let me be very clear. We have a BI-RACIAL president. I am sick of everyone calling him Black. He's also half white and was raised by a white woman.


Hi,

You better call the White House and tell Obama that. I don't think he identifies himself as bi-racial. I believe he always refers to himself as black. I think.

Gellis Indigo
09-17-2009, 06:26 AM
Just look at these teabagger protests/town halls. They're protesting everything under the sun, there's no organization for thought on what they want. They want "their country back." Back from what? They are disjointed and are getting very violent.

/threadjack

And in a thread about the racism in this country because of disrespect, etc., I see that the namecalling of conservatives and conservative movements is still considered ok.

Just for the record, the Teaparty Movement does have a very specific thing that they are protesting. They are protesting the ever-increasing size of our government. This isn't a new concern, its been on the horizon for many, many years. Why is it just now leading to more organization and public outcry? Perhaps because of the size and scope of our sitting President's proposed policies and increase in federal spending.

For many years, the average Joe that disagrees with the enlargement of government has been hesitant to speak out, because it tends to lead to accusations of a lack of compassion, of heartlessness, and of cruelty. But now, the dissatisfaction with what is occurring in Washington is outweighing the fears of the namecalling.

/end threadjack

Selena
09-17-2009, 07:14 AM
/threadjack

And in a thread about the racism in this country because of disrespect, etc., I see that the namecalling of conservatives and conservative movements is still considered ok.

Are you talking specifically to me? Where has anyone done any namecalling??

****** edit ***********
Oh, now I get it. Was it the term "teabagger" you're upset about? In all honesty, it wasn't intended with malcious intent. I had no idea it was construed as a derogatory term. If that's what you are referring to, I do apologize. I didn't know. I suppose it's the term de jour I hear the most and I didn't realize. Really.

letitfly
09-17-2009, 07:34 AM
Are you talking specifically to me? Where has anyone done any namecalling??

I am sure I have. You did try to stereotype southerners as racist but we are pretty used to being the last segment of the population that can be openly ridiculed, stereotyped, mocked and subjected to endless insults but we don't mind . We still remember how to secede and may give it another try sometime but without shelling Fort Sumter. That did not turn out very well for us.

I don't know much about Acorn. They knock on my door from time to time to tell me that I need to give them my money so they can help support small businesses but they can never say how exactly they help support small business.

I wonder if they have ever had a good, independent audit. Is there any concrete example of something substantial that they have done? 53 million in tax dollars, coupled with all the donations, there ought to be some pretty major accomplishments to.

We will need a major organization to manage this health care system and Acorn has all these organizers so maybe they can put in a bid...

RichardMacHugely
09-17-2009, 09:11 AM
Hi,

You better call the White House and tell Obama that. I don't think he identifies himself as bi-racial. I believe he always refers to himself as black. I think.


President Obama usually follows the standard American convention - born in the old South, btw - of identifying anyone with significant amount of African heritage as "Black", however he has always acknowledged his white ancestry as well, and certainly credits his mother and grandmother, both White, with raising him.

I don't think anyone needs to call the White House and tell the President what he is. HE is not the one making an issue of race.

letitfly
09-17-2009, 10:22 AM
President Obama usually follows the standard American convention - born in the old South, btw - of identifying anyone with significant amount of African heritage as "Black", however he has always acknowledged his white ancestry as well, and certainly credits his mother and grandmother, both White, with raising him.

I don't think anyone needs to call the White House and tell the President what he is. HE is not the one making an issue of race.


And that is my point. Obama made the conscious decision to consider himself to be black and identifies himself as black so there is no reason to be bothered when reporters and others call him black.
It would be much better simply to call him "President" but the northern dominated networks and magazines are still obsessed with race.

btw, yes, the classification of having any black blood as making one black was born in the south but readily accepted in the north. I guess you think that blacks in northern areas tended to all move into segregated neighborhoods and inner cities because it was cozy. They moved into segregated neighborhoods because of virulent racism and racist housing codes. btw, my NC neighborhood was integrated as long I can remember, which means the early 1960's.
Here is a list of the most segregated cities in the country, based on schools, neigborhoods, etc. In case your geography is weak,they are all northern, midwest, and western except New Orleans ties with Kansas City in one case. Southerners certainly need no lectures on race relations from any northerner. The north is 50 years behind the south in race relations. That is why blacks are leaving northern cities that their grandparents fled to and coming back south.

http://www.rachelstavern.com/uncategorized/most-and-least-segregated-cities-for-blacks-2000.html

MaidenFaeSnow
09-17-2009, 10:45 AM
The north is 50 years behind the south in race relations.

THAT, I'd like to see supporting evidence of.

RichardMacHugely
09-17-2009, 10:53 AM
And that is my point. Obama made the conscious decision to consider himself to be black and identifies himself as black so there is no reason to be bothered when reporters and others call him black.


No, President Obama's "conscious decision" has been to consistently downplay race at all, and to avoid mentioning it whenever possible as being largely, if not completely, irrelevant. Even now his office is trying to downplay the statements of former President Carter. Obama acknowledges that he's "black" because, well, he is. He has never in any way denied that he is also part white, but "bi-racial" is a relatively recent option, up until a few years ago, and for the entire time Obama was growing up, "bi-racial" people were always classed as being members of the non-White half of their heritage.

I'll point out that HE's not the one even discussing this, YOU are.

daBaroness
09-17-2009, 11:47 AM
Blacks are leaving urban areas because of the extreme violence and influence of gangs, drugs, etc. Same reason a lot of whites are leaving urban areas for smaller towns and rural communities.

People of mixed racial heritage are basically forced by institutional racism to identify themselves as the race that has the darker skin. Technically - in some states you are considered the race of your mother - in which case my sons and President Obama are white. In other states you are forced to self identify by the color of your skin.

As the mother of mixed-race children - I can tell you being forced to be identified by only half of your racial heritage can be very painful for both the children and the parents. There has been a movement for about 25 years to require that applications and official documents have a mixed racial heritage checkbox. For a lot of kids - it's difficult to deny half of their identity and morever, to deny one of your parents. Some people of mixed racial heritage have very little difficulty with self identity and self identification - but I would guess that a majority do have to deal with it on a daily basis and that is something that people of a single racial heritage will never understand.

My son, Cameron, is possibly the best example of someone who doesn't try to identify with one side over another - he's just Cameron. He's just himself no matter who he's with - and he's got a large group of friends. My son, Taylor, on the other hand, has struggled his entire life with being his authentic self and giving in to pressure to be white or black. It's caused his a lot of confusion, unhappiness and anger. On one hand he wants the pseudo respect black men demand (rather than earn) by being hard, uncaring, tough and thuggish. On the other hand, he's as much of a white mama's boy as anyone could be. He's smart, articulate, likes classical music, art museums, renaissance festival and hanging out with me and doing things no one would ever think would be interesting to a 17-year-old male.

I wish he didn't have this struggle and I hope as he gets older he will find his own identity and follow in his brother's footsteps. The problem is - there are too many people in this world he will touch who continue to insist he identify with one side or another based on what they, not he is comfortable wtih.

Katie O'Connell
09-17-2009, 12:57 PM
[FONT=Georgia,Serif;][I]
Yep, that would be profiling. I would call it elitism. It is long past time to give up your worn out image of southern racism. The south has been far more integrated than the north for a couple of generations. Only in PA do I see black kids being kicked out of pools, Skip Gates arrested in MA, NY police seem to frequently shooting blacks, Bostonians were burning school buses in the 70's, guessing the noose and swastika hanging in a tree of the black family that moved into Fairview, OH last week was just a misunderstood welcome wagon present. If you want to see integrated neighborhoods, visit almost any southern suburb; if you want to see lily white, visit northeastern 'burbs. My subdivision is about 50% northern transplants and it has been decades since I have heard southerners make the type of racist comments I routinely hear coming from the northerners and midwesterners sitting around the pool. Every state and region has racism and the racism goes in all directions.


Don't get me wrong-- I won't try to defend my knee jerk reaction to the issue - I realized at the time that my assumptions were not necessarily valid, and based on my own personal prejudices and my limited knowledge of history.

The difference between myself and Senator Wilson is that I work hard to keep my prejudices personal. I do not let them override the respect for and civilized or polite behavior toward my fellow American, whether that's my neigbor, my supervisor at work, or the President.

And if I can be convinced otherwise - not just by statistics or history lessons, but by personal experience and observations, that my assumptions, prejudices are incorrect, then those sorts of thoughts will no longer occur to me.

Do I believe that tere are no racists in the North? Hell no--Both Detroit and the entire SE Michigan area has sections that are very segregated.

There is a passage in the charter documents for the neigborhood I live in (back in the 40's when it was being developed) that stated that 'no persons of color were to be allowed to live' in the neighborhood.



Now about slavery. I didn't realize it had a "golden age"
[B](1. A period of great peace, prosperity, and happiness.) but every colony had slavery. Slavery was abolished in NJ in 1865, Rhode Island in 1842, NY about 1825, PA in 1845, CT in 1848. The north did not have anywhere as many slaves as the south because of different economies and because the British army penetrated most of the north, liberating slaves as it went. The blacks were often driven out of the area. Finally, slavery was a northern creation. Northern factories needed cheap cotton and northern ship captains brought in the slaves to pick the cotton.


Thanks, I have a dictionary. :smile: My use of the words 'Golden Age' was really just a reference to the time period most Americans are familiar with, with regard to Slavery, specifically, pre Civil War Southern US. Similar to the 'golden age of Piracy.'

I will not refute a historical, documented report about who did or did not have slaves- but if you ask 100 people on the street, I think most people would tell you they think Slavery was mainly in the SOUTH, an slaves escaped by moving to the NORTH. I know I'm not alone in that general idea the history of the period and the region.

I'm not proud of my prejudices, just like I'm not proud of how little I know about history, or about a lot of things. I am willing to admit to them, however if given a forum. Selena did that for us here... and I aired my dirty emotional laundry honestly, in the hopes that an intelligent debate can change my mind.

RichardMacHugely
09-17-2009, 02:09 PM
Huh, listening to Southern Revisionist historians try to weasel their way out of the history of slavery is like listening to a little kid trying to talk his way out of trouble: "We didn't do it. We're not the only ones who did it. You made us do it anyway."

letitfly
09-17-2009, 02:33 PM
THAT, I'd like to see supporting evidence of.


traveling and reading is where you get supporting evidence, as well as confronting your own bigotry based on regionalism.

Selena
09-17-2009, 02:46 PM
traveling and reading is where you get supporting evidence, as well as confronting your own bigotry based on regionalism.

Wow, you really are all over the map on this, aren't you. First you accuse me of "stereotyping" the entire south, then you actually have the balls to say the south is 50 years behind on race relations?? Pick a side and stick to it why don't ya. :unamused:

letitfly
09-17-2009, 02:54 PM
Huh, listening to Southern Revisionist historians try to weasel their way out of the history of slavery is like listening to a little kid trying to talk his way out of trouble: "We didn't do it. We're not the only ones who did it. You made us do it anyway."


Can you get more stupid? Who the hell is trying to weasel out of anything? I was born in 1955, what the hell did I have to do with slavery. Slavery existed everywhere in the US and every colony and state benefited from. The primary beneficiaries were southern plantation owners, northern factory owners and ship owners, most of whom were northern. The south had few mills, cotton went north and to England

But as for responsibility, those responsible have, I am pretty certain, been dead for centuries. I feel neither shame nor responsibility for anything about the actions of others 350 years before I was born. The concept of trying to avoid responsibility for slavery is too silly to address. I am not even sure my ancestors were even here at that time.

letitfly
09-17-2009, 02:57 PM
Wow, you really are all over the map on this, aren't you. First you accuse me of "stereotyping" the entire south, then you actually have the balls to say the south is 50 years behind on race relations?? Pick a side and stick to it why don't ya. :unamused:

no, I said the north is 50 years behind. Segregation is alive and well in the north. The south has been integrated for decades. Worry about integrating Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit and most other northern urban schools and neighborhoods before you sneer at hte south. You have to go to PA to find black kids being kicked out of pools.

Phoenix McHeit
09-17-2009, 03:01 PM
traveling and reading is where you get supporting evidence, as well as confronting your own bigotry based on regionalism.

Dismissive, insulting and boorish as always. Yeah. Now I'm remembering why I had you on ignore the last time you were here. Its better for my blood pressure. Mea Culpa for giving the benefit of the doubt again.

RichardMacHugely
09-17-2009, 03:22 PM
Can you get more stupid?

Probably, I'm certainly feeling dumber by the minute just reading your posts.

However, you'll recollect that I didn't say anything about "responsibility", I mentioned the "history" of slavery, and the urge Southerners have had ever since to plaster it over, even those born in 1955. Your arguments echoed similar sentiments I've heard from neo-Confederates for years, about how Slavery was "imposed" on the South by the North, about how there were more "white" slaves than black, about how the Civil War was really just a tax revolt that had nothing to do with Slavery etc etc etc.

Ravin' Raven
09-17-2009, 03:44 PM
Well...well...well....the birdy flies to the far off other side of the country to nest and see what I miss?

All I have to say is....:mmph:

MFS - breathe my lovely....breathe....those of us from the backwoods of Maryland are poor stoopid, ignernt fools who ain't got a lick of sense to know what we be talkin' about....beins as we can't read anyways and we ain't never been no where neither....

Lady Sarah
09-17-2009, 04:07 PM
Probably, I'm certainly feeling dumber by the minute just reading your posts.

Dude,

I was all set to give some Reputation for this comment. Unfortunately, the board has other ideas. So, instead you'll have to settle for an e-kiss.

This comment alone sums up why I've got Marty McFlyAntiques on ignore now.

Gellis Indigo
09-17-2009, 05:25 PM
Are you talking specifically to me? Where has anyone done any namecalling??

****** edit ***********
Oh, now I get it. Was it the term "teabagger" you're upset about? In all honesty, it wasn't intended with malcious intent. I had no idea it was construed as a derogatory term. If that's what you are referring to, I do apologize. I didn't know. I suppose it's the term de jour I hear the most and I didn't realize. Really.

Yep, that's the one. No worries, but did think it needed to be addressed. Thanks for the apology.

letitfly
09-17-2009, 07:43 PM
Probably, I'm certainly feeling dumber by the minute just reading your posts.

However, you'll recollect that I didn't say anything about "responsibility", I mentioned the "history" of slavery, and the urge Southerners have had ever since to plaster it over, even those born in 1955. Your arguments echoed similar sentiments I've heard from neo-Confederates for years, about how Slavery was "imposed" on the South by the North, about how there were more "white" slaves than black, about how the Civil War was really just a tax revolt that had nothing to do with Slavery etc etc etc.

Sorry if I misunderstood your meaning.

"Huh, listening to Southern Revisionist historians try to weasel their way out of the history of slavery is like listening to a little kid trying to talk his way out of trouble:"

That would sound as if you meant trying to avoid the responsibility for slavery.
Definition of "to weasel":
2. Fig. to evade or avoid a job or responsibility. (Fig. on {2}.) Don't try to weasel out of your responsibility! You can't weasel out! You have to do it.

That, I guess, is the source of my interpretation as one weasels out of responsibility.

The so called "Southern Revisionist history" is now largely the accepted history. Of course, there are many different revisionist looks at slavery, the war and the south but the major trend in historical revisionism is accepting that slavery and the war is more complex than the orthodox view of good guys/bad guys and mean slaveholders and selfless abolitionists. Revisionists started to look at the ignored facts such as evidence that most northerners hated blacks and were pro-slavery, the economic benefits of slavery to the northern economy, complex issues like free slaves and freedmen that owned large numbers of slaves, blacks that freely chose to fight for the south (read Nathan Forrest about black troops). The new interpretations looked at things like the fact that many, probably most, Confederate generals owned no slaves and that many northern generals owned slaves and believed in slavery as the national order. RE Lee started freeing his slaves when he inherited them (not as easy as it would seem) and US Grant hung on to his until forced to give her up by the 13th amendment.

What has emerged from historical revisionism is a recognition that this era of history is far more complex and nuanced than the simplistic orthodox view that was taught for so long, especially in the public schools. Southern revisionist history does not excuse or "plaster over" slavery nor does it apologize for it. It is just a fresh and more meaningful look at the subject and it will continue to interpret and reinterpret facts and events forever.

Neo- Confederates are a different animal altogether though the term is too broad to mean much specifically. There is a Neo-Confederate historiography, it is definitely revisionist but of a variety often called Negationism. Negationists are typically politically motivated and attempt to revise orthodox history but by using false facts and illegitimate arguments. The best example is holocaust deniers. There are a lot of neo-confederate negationists running around lose that argue everything that slavery was good and necessary at the time, that most slave plantations were owned by northerners and on. Neo-confederate groups are often thinly veiled or openly racist. The Neo-Confeds should not be confused with Southern revisionist history.

Of course, one of my despised links but only to show that even the neo-confed issue can be complex and never black and white:

http://www.dixiecom.com/blackneo.htm

And back to what's his name, Wilson?, that did the yelling. It seems he is a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV). The SCV is certainly a legitimate and benign group but it does look like some of its chapters have become political and associated with the Neo - Confederate world view. The SC chapter that Wilson belongs to is accused of being particularly neo - confed in its leanings. If that is so, his outburst may have been more than just sincere indignation but only he knows. All complex.

And Obama. Did he not, in Dreams of My Father, tell how he read Malcolm X at around age 14 and decided to identify himself with black culture rather than the multi-cultural community he lived in? I read the book but I can't remember now what it said as opposed to what others said was in it.

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-17-2009, 07:50 PM
And just for a moment, let me be very clear. We have a BI-RACIAL president. I am sick of everyone calling him Black. He's also half white and was raised by a white woman.

I have a friend who is similarly half-black. I'm pretty sure that the cabbies who refuse to pick him up fail to percieve the same subtle distinctions that you do.

When discussing matters of racism, for all practical purposes Barack Obama is black. To get hung up on genealogy and percentages is to miss the point spectacularly.



Although I suppose that we should be at least minimally thankful that no one here is claiming that he's a Muslim anymore....

Ravin' Raven
09-17-2009, 07:51 PM
And Obama. Did he not, in Dreams of My Father, tell how he read Malcolm X at around age 14 and decided to identify himself with black culture rather than the multi-cultural community he lived in? I read the book but I can't remember now what it said as opposed to what others said was in it.

I have not read Dreams of My Father but, IF Obama did that make statement, you will find that most people of multiple races (and even some of multiple ethnicity) hit a point in their lives (usually at an age during which they are in the process of self identification and self discovery - say teenaged years) at which they find it is easier for them socially and personally to define, at least for that time, with one specific aspect of themselves (you will also find this true for people whose spiritual upbringing combines very disparate traditions such as someone who is half Catholic and half Jewish). Therefore I would not find that statement to be something to make a big deal of. Heck when I read Malcom X I wanted to identify with my black heritage and I don't have any. The person we define at 14 is not the person we remain.

as far as all of the other cockmamey falderall about race....I continue to not comment because I do not think I'd be very lady-like at this point.

Psyche
09-17-2009, 08:05 PM
I saw far more racism growing up in Washington state than I have while living in the South. There is far more acceptance for multiracial relationships in the South than I ever saw in the Pacific Northwest.

The South? They got over it. Maybe others need to do the same.

I hate stereotypes.

Psyche
09-17-2009, 08:08 PM
When discussing matters of racism, for all practical purposes Barack Obama is black. To get hung up on genealogy and percentages is to miss the point spectacularly.I disagree. Bi-racials get shat on by both sides. Many do not feel like they belong in either/any of their heritage groups because of the part of them that isn't.

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-17-2009, 08:10 PM
I disagree. Bi-racials get shat on by both sides. Many do not feel like they belong in either/any of their heritage groups because of the part of them that isn't.

Okay, it's not the same, but it's certainly not better. :)

When talking about a person being discriminated against because he's black, saying "oh, he's not black, he's half-black" isn't really a counter-argument.

daBaroness
09-17-2009, 11:10 PM
:stunned:

Wow! Watching a few argue a lot about something they understand so little.

Anybody here bi-racial? Anybody here the parent of someone who's bi-racial? Oh yeah, that would be me. Anybody read about how difficult it can be for these kids to "find" their place in a race-conscious world or just too busy swinging d ... er (no, be nice now dB) just too busy arguing to consider some information?

OK - resume argument. Whatever.

letitfly
09-17-2009, 11:51 PM
[quote=daBaroness;381035]:stunned:

Wow! Watching a few argue a lot about something they understand so little.

Anybody here bi-racial? Anybody here the parent of someone who's bi-racial? Oh yeah, that would be me. Anybody read about how difficult it can be for these kids to "find" their place in a race-conscious world or just too busy swinging d ... er (no, be nice now dB) just too busy arguing to consider some information?

To clarify, I don't care what Obama calls himself. He has the freedom to choose his identity. My initial post was simply that it does not bother me if the media calls him "black" as that is how he refers to himself.
In his words:
Obama, in his book, “The Audacity of Hope,” described himself as a “prisoner” of his own biography:

“I can’t help but view the American experience through the lens of a black man of mixed heritage, forever mindful of how generations of people who looked like me were subjugated and stigmatized, and the subtle and not so subtle ways that race and class continue to shape our lives.”


His background is so complex that it really does not fit our usual categories. He has an African heritage but is not descended from American slaves. Raised in Indonesia and Hawaii with an European educated Kenyan father and American mother, he does not share the experience of most American blacks. He may be half white but no one would buy that if he checked CAUCASIAN on an application or census. Bi-racial just seems a little clumsy to use as it could be any two races and most Americans, especially in the south, would be surprised to find that they more genetic diversity than they ever thought.



I think that, at this point, being elected president and all, most people are aware of Obama's heritage and race and don't need adjectives before "President."

Isabelle Warwicke
09-18-2009, 01:53 AM
"I think that, at this point, being elected president and all, most people are aware of Obama's heritage and race and don't need adjectives before "President."

I think that is a great way to put it. Was this written by Obama or his ghostwriter?

I also think that we can modify that statement to "people shouldn't need adjectives before "President."

MaidenFaeSnow
09-18-2009, 08:37 AM
Well...well...well....the birdy flies to the far off other side of the country to nest and see what I miss?

All I have to say is....:mmph:

MFS - breathe my lovely....breathe....those of us from the backwoods of Maryland are poor stoopid, ignernt fools who ain't got a lick of sense to know what we be talkin' about....beins as we can't read anyways and we ain't never been no where neither....

I fawkin lurvs ya'll hon!!!

MaidenFaeSnow
09-18-2009, 08:40 AM
[quote=daBaroness;381035]:stunned:

Wow! Watching a few argue a lot about something they understand so little.

Anybody here bi-racial? Anybody here the parent of someone who's bi-racial? Oh yeah, that would be me. Anybody read about how difficult it can be for these kids to "find" their place in a race-conscious world or just too busy swinging d ... er (no, be nice now dB) just too busy arguing to consider some information?






WOW! I didn't think anyone had to actually BE something to UNDERSTAND that something. So, you are the parent of bi-racial offspring, so that would make you the only one qualified to be having any discussion on this topic?

daBaroness
09-18-2009, 09:29 AM
[quote=daBaroness;381035]

To clarify, I don't care what Obama calls himself. He has the freedom to choose his identity. My initial post was simply that it does not bother me if the media calls him "black" as that is how he refers to himself.
In his words:
Obama, in his book, “The Audacity of Hope,” described himself as a “prisoner” of his own biography:

“I can’t help but view the American experience through the lens of a black man of mixed heritage, forever mindful of how generations of people who looked like me were subjugated and stigmatized, and the subtle and not so subtle ways that race and class continue to shape our lives.”

His background is so complex that it really does not fit our usual categories. He has an African heritage but is not descended from American slaves. Raised in Indonesia and Hawaii with an European educated Kenyan father and American mother, he does not share the experience of most American blacks. He may be half white but no one would buy that if he checked CAUCASIAN on an application or census. Bi-racial just seems a little clumsy to use as it could be any two races and most Americans, especially in the south, would be surprised to find that they more genetic diversity than they ever thought.

I think that, at this point, being elected president and all, most people are aware of Obama's heritage and race and don't need adjectives before "President."



I would agree with you on Obama's background being unlike 99% of most Americans and that his youthful experiences are unique to him - just as all of ours are unique to each of us. I know his heritage and yes, I've read his books. His first book I read because I was interested in his perspective of growing up biracial. He struggled with it - a lot. Not unlike most other children of mixed-racial heritage. Even though he grew up in a multi-cultural environment - he still sought to find and define his own identity and how he fit into the community around him. For him - traveling to Kenya and meeting his father's family helped him put some pieces into the puzzle. Others don't have that opportunity.

You say no adjectives are needed before "President," and I wish that were so - but we're just not there yet, and that's what this entire discussion is about. Also - yes, Obama has figured out his place in the world and he's chosen to identify (in some respects) to being "black." My personal view - he would be whatever it behooved him to be to get into office. I believe the speech he gave before the 2004 Democratic convention was a litmus test for the party handlers to see if he could be a viable candidate. After losing to the Republicans for 8 years and realizing they were viewed as a non-viable party - something needed to be done to shake up the status quo - and Obama was that ticket.

All that aside - I believe Obama won for two or three main reasons. First - everyone - including many Republicans were tired of the Bush regime. Second - Obama is the original everyman. Educated, intellectual and "white" enough for the more conservative types; diverse, charismatic, liberal and "black" enough to capture the liberal, black and disenfranchised vote. He was groomed and he was the consummate student. I have to believe the democratic strategists were creaming their suit pants over this candidate.

You'll see that I previously posted that I believe if Obama runs in 2012 (and there's no reason to believe he won't), he'll garner less of the traditional black vote precisely because he is not first and foremost the poster child for the hip-hop culture many (ignorant types) thought he was. Those who voted for him merely because of race are and will find out exactly why that kind of vote is ill conceived - because it breaks the stereotypes that even people who are part of that stereotype believe.

For some - Obama's race is not the issue (at least not the main one) - it's the fact that he's a liberal of unknown liberalness. He didn't serve in the senate long enough for people to get a read on his politics and leanings - and that's what scares people like my mother - fiscal conservatives who worry that too many social programs will break the bank. And - I believe that is a legitimate concern, compounded by all the political rhetoric spewed by both conservatives and liberals that does a disservice to the average citizen who just wants fairness and health care (and other services) at an affordable rate. Clearly entitlement programs don't work - and there are a lot of taxpayers - myself included - who worry that new legislation will just be old giveaway programs with some spray paint on them.

That's my view - and no one needs to share it. However, where self-definition regarding race is concerned - no one has the right to decide for someone else who they are, who they choose to identify with or how they feel. My point is that more often than not - based on my own children and those of other mixed-racial heritage I know - the challenges of growing up are made more challenging - if even a little - by being mixed race. And generally - it is people of color themselves who choose to identify themselves with adjectives.

letitfly
09-18-2009, 09:50 AM
Well...well...well....the birdy flies to the far off other side of the country to nest and see what I miss?

All I have to say is....:mmph:

MFS - breathe my lovely....breathe....those of us from the backwoods of Maryland are poor stoopid, ignernt fools who ain't got a lick of sense to know what we be talkin' about....beins as we can't read anyways and we ain't never been no where neither....


Hi,

Maybe I am missing your point. I do that. You do realize that Maryland is a southern state. South of the Mason-Dixon line, huge slave population, would have seceded had Lincoln but Lincoln illegally arrested the Democratic legislators and anyone that practiced free speech in favor of secession. Martial law was imposed. Refused to free slaves and only barely got an emancipation passed in 1864. After the war and until the Civil Rights movement, MD was a harsh Jim Crow state, it remains the 4th most segregated (1 New York, 2 Illinois, 3 Michigan,4 Maryland, 5 New Jersey,6 Pennsylvania. Note the blue liberal states are all apartheid states).

MD fish is fried and served with ice tea, they know what a biscuit is, the BBQ is straying a little off course but still real = Southern state

Ravin' Raven
09-18-2009, 10:07 AM
Hi,

Maybe I am missing your point. I do that. You do realize that Maryland is a southern state. South of the Mason-Dixon line, huge slave population, would have seceded had Lincoln but Lincoln illegally arrested the Democratic legislators and anyone that practiced free speech in favor of secession. Martial law was imposed. Refused to free slaves and only barely got an emancipation passed in 1864. After the war and until the Civil Rights movement, MD was a harsh Jim Crow state, it remains the 4th most segregated (1 New York, 2 Illinois, 3 Michigan,4 Maryland, 5 New Jersey,6 Pennsylvania. Note the blue liberal states are all apartheid states).

MD fish is fried and served with ice tea, they know what a biscuit is, the BBQ is straying a little off course but still real = Southern state

yes you did...my post contained no information that was pertinent to you other than to back up someone to whom you had made a fairly nasty little slam for no reason and who I know to be very intelligent, articulate, well read, and well traveled.

However, your new post does include information that it pertinent to me so I will address it....

Um...dude...I grew up in Maryland and lived there for the last 45 years so don't assume I'm some backwoods stupid southern putz. I can read statistical websites and crap all day long too it doesn't mean I UNDERSTAND ANYTHING I AM TALKING ABOUT (hint hint)- lay off the Encylopedia Brittanica for a while...sometimes polls and statistical information mean nadda because anything like that can be construed and misconstrued. I got news for you - Maryland is not the south - the Mason Dixon line thing is as arbitrary as anything else - yeah we were the world headquarters of the the KKK, yeah we were iffy in the civil war, blah blah blah blah blah.....who made up which questions and statistics they were going to use to define which state was how segregated (and don't even start throwing out the term Apartheid) in your little fact sheet there?

And the fact that you equate cuisine with southern - just...I can't even address that one right now....(btw - it's IceD tea and we served it sweetened - quick Martha call the papers Marylander's serve sweet tea - that means they are only one step away from selling the Mayor of Baltimore into slavery - she's not only a woman in a position of power she's **gasp** BLACK!!! In an apartheid state...!!!)

Phoenix McHeit
09-18-2009, 10:45 AM
I always thought MD was the South... well, maybe gradual South. Like the in-between area. Kinda like Florida. South but not stereotypically 'southern' ... know whut I mean? :wink:

Shows what I know. ::kooky::

daBaroness
09-18-2009, 11:12 AM
Here's as much information on "The South" as one will ever need. As defined by the United States Census Bureau,[5] the Southern region of the United States includes sixteen states and the District of Columbia (with a total 2006 estimated population of 109,083,752.) Thirty-six percent of all U.S. residents lived in the South, the nation's most populous region. The Census Bureau defined three smaller units, or divisions:

The South Atlantic States: Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, Washington, D.C., and Delaware
The East South Central States: Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi and Tennessee
The West South Central States: Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, and Texas
Other terms related to the South include:

The Old South: usually the original Southern colonies: Virginia, Delaware, Maryland, Georgia, North Carolina, and South Carolina.[6]
The New South: usually including the South Atlantic States.
The Solid South: region controlled by the U.S. Democratic Party from 1877 to 1964. Includes at least all the 11 former Confederate States.
Southern Appalachia: mainly refers to areas situated in the Southern Appalachian Mountains, namely Eastern Kentucky, East Tennessee, Western North Carolina, Western Maryland, West Virginia, Southwest Virginia, North Georgia, and Northeastern South Carolina.
Southeastern United States: usually including the Carolinas, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Florida
The Deep South: various definitions, usually including Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, and South Carolina. Occasionally, parts of adjoining states are included (sections of East Texas, delta areas of Arkansas and Tennessee, and parts of Florida such as the panhandle and north central part of the state).
The Gulf South: various definitions, usually including Gulf coasts of Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas and Alabama.
The Upper South: Kentucky, Virginia, West Virginia, Tennessee, and North Carolina.[7]
Dixie: various definitions, but most commonly associated with the 11 states of the Old Confederacy.
The Mid-South: also known as the South Central United States.
Border South: Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware were the states that did not secede from the United States to join the Confederacy. West Virginia was formed by western Virginians who opposed the secession of their state from the Union.
The popular definition of the "South" is more informal and is generally associated with those states that seceded during the Civil War to form the Confederate States of America. Those states share commonalities of history and culture that carry on to the present day.

letitfly
09-18-2009, 11:47 AM
I always thought MD was the South... well, maybe gradual South. Like the in-between area. Kinda like Florida. South but not stereotypically 'southern' ... know whut I mean? :wink:

Shows what I know. ::kooky::

Actually, though you have me on ignore, I don't really think of MD as southern and most people I know here would consider it northern, especially the Baltimore - DC area. As pointed out, Delaware is also considered southern but I do not think of DE as southern and I doubt if many residents of DE do. New Englanders I deal with call MD southern but they refer to PA furniture as southern also.

Mid- Atlantic works better these days.

letitfly
09-18-2009, 12:15 PM
yes you did...my post contained no information that was pertinent to you other than to back up someone to whom you had made a fairly nasty little slam for no reason and who I know to be very intelligent, articulate, well read, and well traveled.

However, your new post does include information that it pertinent to me so I will address it....

Um...dude...I grew up in Maryland and lived there for the last 45 years so don't assume I'm some backwoods stupid southern putz. I can read statistical websites and crap all day long too it doesn't mean I UNDERSTAND ANYTHING I AM TALKING ABOUT (hint hint)- lay off the Encylopedia Brittanica for a while...sometimes polls and statistical information mean nadda because anything like that can be construed and misconstrued. I got news for you - Maryland is not the south - the Mason Dixon line thing is as arbitrary as anything else - yeah we were the world headquarters of the the KKK, yeah we were iffy in the civil war, blah blah blah blah blah.....who made up which questions and statistics they were going to use to define which state was how segregated (and don't even start throwing out the term Apartheid) in your little fact sheet there?

And the fact that you equate cuisine with southern - just...I can't even address that one right now....(btw - it's IceD tea and we served it sweetened - quick Martha call the papers Marylander's serve sweet tea - that means they are only one step away from selling the Mayor of Baltimore into slavery - she's not only a woman in a position of power she's **gasp** BLACK!!! In an apartheid state...!!!)

Like it or not, MD is southern though most people a little deeper consider MD northern but that is mostly based on the Baltimore - DC area. You will not find goegraphy books or anything elase that put MD in the north. New Englanders I deal with always speak of MD as southern, but they also consider PA to be southern. Maryland furniture and decorative arts are in the southern tradition and always in books on southern antiques and art.

As for cuisine, that was partially in jest but since you reacted so violently, how the hell else do you define a region? A gps or any map can show borders but regions are really defined by culture. Cuisine is one of the largest elements of culture as the regions history always defines and shapes the food. Food, accent, music, fashion, attitudes are what make a region. Otherwise there is no reason to discuss issues about southern/northern and to toss your smug sneers around. Without cuisine and other differing elements of culture, we are just bland McDonalds, Applebys, Gaps and other cookie cutter culture.
The fact that you don't think cuisine is important in defining a region, well "..I can't even address that one right now...."
Of course it is iceD Tea, sweetened, that goes without saying. That other stuff is hot tea or something.

No Brittanica. I just keep my brain cluttered with useless info or printed out somewhere these days.

Apartheid states: I think if you look at the Harvard Civil Rights Project or many works on segregation in schools, you will find the term used for states that have more than 50% of minority students attending segregated schools and no ongoing plan to integrate the schools. I didn't invent the term.

Holly
09-18-2009, 12:51 PM
What astounds me about this whole issue is that for the most part, the press surrounding this issue is painting the republicans and other conservatives with a broad brush of racism. I do not think that is an accurate representation of the party. Normally, I give Jimmy Carter a little more respect, even though I am in the fiscal and programatically conservative camp, but this comment was uncalled for.

Speaking of uncalled for, I find it interesting that the same people on this board who were cheering when Bush was Booed at during a public event( members here were defending it by implying that it is the privalage to show their sentiments) are claiming that calling the president a liar is unacceptable. How are these that different? How then, is this instance a manifestation of the right's deep seated racism?

Do I think that racism exists? Yes. Do I think it is wrong? Yes. Do I think that one segment of the county is more racist than another? NO, I think that each culture finds methods for manipulating differences to their advantages regardless of the geography, political leaning, age, sex, religion-what not.

I think that many cultures get bashed, but I think that Native Americans are getting the biggest shaft. :( However, i have to go back to work...

Ravin' Raven
09-18-2009, 02:11 PM
I always thought MD was the South... well, maybe gradual South. Like the in-between area. Kinda like Florida. South but not stereotypically 'southern' ... know whut I mean? :wink:

Shows what I know. ::kooky::


Yes my dear because I am the most fine example of a genteel southern, wallflower, type lady you've ever met...:kiss:

Lady Sarah
09-18-2009, 02:21 PM
Yes my dear because I am the most fine example of a genteel southern, wallflower, type lady you've ever met...:kiss:

*coughbullshitcough*

Love you Pookie. :snicker:

Ravin' Raven
09-18-2009, 02:25 PM
As for cuisine, that was partially in jest but since you reacted so violently, how the hell else do you define a region?

No Brittanica. I just keep my brain cluttered with useless info or printed out somewhere these days.



1) That was not "violent" trust me...
2) I honestly didn't have time to address it. Sorry I work for a living and I had to be in a meeting.
3) I guess then you'll be at the next triple 9 meeting? You love to assume that all the rest of us are just so stupid that we don't always have to take factoids to define something and we can make definitions out of greater criteria than food and furniture and geography. Trust me I am from the Eastern Shore of Maryland and to call me a southerner is offensive. I am a Sho'man which is not defined by my politics or what happened 150 years ago. What's funny is that you will try to argue that point and you can't - you "textbook" definition has no merit.

Ravin' Raven
09-18-2009, 02:26 PM
*coughbullshitcough*

Love you Pookie. :snicker:

See sugar - that's my point - I AM NOT SOUTHERN!!!!!!

(but I am a wallflower....):wink:

Lady Sarah
09-18-2009, 02:27 PM
See sugar - that's my point - I AM NOT SOUTHERN!!!!!!

(but I am a wallflower....):wink:

Ain't gonna camoflage this one: I call a Bullshit on the wallflower thing. *rotfl*

You're *almost anything but* a wallflower.

RichardMacHugely
09-18-2009, 03:57 PM
What astounds me about this whole issue is that for the most part, the press surrounding this issue is painting the republicans and other conservatives with a broad brush of racism. I do not think that is an accurate representation of the party. Normally, I give Jimmy Carter a little more respect, even though I am in the fiscal and programatically conservative camp, but this comment was uncalled for. ...

President Carter didn't say that ALL the opposition to President Obama was motivated by Racism, he said that an "overwhelming portion" of the most hateful, vitriolic, and strident criticism and opposition was motivated by racism. Carter was talking about the people who say that Obama isn't even an American, or that he's shouldn't be President because he's a secret muslim terrorist. That old lady at the McCain rally who stood up and said "He's not an American, he's a. .a. .a. .MUSLIM", SHE's a racist. That's who Carter was talking about, and In that regard, I think Carter is mostly right, but his comments have been broadened by conservative commentators eager to paint themselves as victims, because we all know how tough White Christians have it in this country.


Speaking of uncalled for, I find it interesting that the same people on this board who were cheering when Bush was Booed at during a public event( members here were defending it by implying that it is the privalage to show their sentiments) are claiming that calling the president a liar is unacceptable. How are these that different? How then, is this instance a manifestation of the right's deep seated racism? ...

Hmm, I'm not sure I ever witnessed President Bush (43) facing even a mildly unfriendly crowd, let alone one that was hostile enough to "boo" him. As I recall, all of his public events were carefully staged with audiences handpicked from strong supporters, and even the most mild-mannered protestors were kept well away from him in areas given the ironically kafka-esqe disignation of "Free Speech Zones". That said, if he ever WAS booed, that's okay, Obama gets booed on occasion too. Joe Wilson got in trouble because House Rules specifically prohibit members from accusing people of dishonesty while in debate. This rule is meant to instill a collegial feeling of mutual respect and civil disagreement. By shouting "You Lie" during the President's speech, Wilson violated that rule, and his hand has been slapped for it. Murmering expressions of non-support or disagreement with the President IS allowed by the rules, and you'll note there was quite a bit of that going on from the GOP side of the aisle, and none of those members were reprimanded.

letitfly
09-18-2009, 04:17 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure I ever witnessed President Bush (43) facing even a mildly unfriendly crowd, let alone one that was hostile enough to "boo" him. As I recall, all of his public events were carefully staged with audiences handpicked from strong supporters, and even the most mild-mannered protestors were kept well away from him in areas given the ironically kafka-esqe disignation of "Free Speech Zones". That said, if he ever WAS booed, that's okay, Obama gets booed on occasion too. Joe Wilson got in trouble because House Rules specifically prohibit members from accusing people of dishonesty while in debate. This rule is meant to instill a collegial feeling of mutual respect and civil disagreement. By shouting "You Lie" during the President's speech, Wilson violated that rule, and his hand has been slapped for it. Murmering expressions of non-support or disagreement with the President IS allowed by the rules, and you'll note there was quite a bit of that going on from the GOP side of the aisle, and none of those members were reprimanded.

Bush was booed very loudly at Obama's inauguration but it was the crowd, not Congress.

Here is Bush booed in Congress and someone supposedly yells "liar" but I can't hear it. He was booed in the 07 SOTU also. Most of it just sounds like mutteringt and grumbling to me.
Republicans did the same to Clinton.

RichardMacHugely
09-18-2009, 04:23 PM
Bush was booed very loudly at Obama's inauguration but it was the crowd, not Congress.

Here is Bush booed in Congress and someone supposedly yells "liar" but I can't hear it. He was booed in the 07 SOTU also. Most of it just sounds like mutteringt and grumbling to me.
Republicans did the same to Clinton.


Well, at the end of Bush's term even Republicans were booing him, but as I said, that's allowed under Congress's rules. Shouting "You Lie" is not, as we've discussed.

Public crowds can do whatever they want, and if Bush got an unfriendly reception at Obama's innauguration, well wtf did he expect? Maybe he should have gotten out of his bubble once in a while during the previous eight years.

I wouldn't boo myself, though, not even Mr. Bush. I think it's disrespectful treatment of a head of state. I even cringed at Ahmadinnerjacket's reception at Columbia, and he's a guy I think really IS evil, I mean Dick Cheney evil, not Bush League Evil like W43.

letitfly
09-18-2009, 04:31 PM
1) That was not "violent" trust me...
2) I honestly didn't have time to address it. Sorry I work for a living and I had to be in a meeting.
3) I guess then you'll be at the next triple 9 meeting? You love to assume that all the rest of us are just so stupid that we don't always have to take factoids to define something and we can make definitions out of greater criteria than food and furniture and geography. Trust me I am from the Eastern Shore of Maryland and to call me a southerner is offensive. I am a Sho'man which is not defined by my politics or what happened 150 years ago. What's funny is that you will try to argue that point and you can't - you "textbook" definition has no merit.

gee, glad you are not a bigot. I never looked at southerner, northerner or westerner as insults. Just geographical and cultural facts.

oh, tell your tourism commission. Good that they have you to redefine history, culture and geography.



"Maryland is for crabs." It’s a popular expression that is especially true – and not true – on the Eastern Shore. Blue crabs from the Chesapeake – harvested on the Eastern Shore – are often at the center of traditional get-togethers in Maryland.
If you're talking about the people who live on the Eastern Shore, though, the expression is far from the truth. Eastern Shore folks will show you why Maryland has its roots in Southern hospitality.
Spend a day on the bay. Discover this region’s history and allure while sailing. Or, drive from one waterfront village to the next in search of the perfect crab cake.
Want more activity? Head for Ocean City (http://www.visitmaryland.org/EasternShore/Pages/OceanCity.aspx). Along this 10-mile stretch of white sandy beaches, you'll find a boardwalk, amusement parks, an abundance of hotels and eateries, and more than two dozen golf courses nearby.


Related Link:

Bay Bridge (http://baybridge.com/)


Amazing –but it’s still true.
Our tiny peninsula is the last pristine stretch on the East Coast. Where the bay meets the sea, watermen till the tides and family farms stretch lush and green. Our small towns are as Southern as sweet potato pie. Wild Chincoteague ponies run free by the sea. And our string of natural barrier islands look the same as when Native Americans first dined on oysters here.

letitfly
09-18-2009, 04:34 PM
Well, at the end of Bush's term even Republicans were booing him, but as I said, that's allowed under Congress's rules. Shouting "You Lie" is not, as we've discussed.

Public crowds can do whatever they want, and if Bush got an unfriendly reception at Obama's innauguration, well wtf did he expect? Maybe he should have gotten out of his bubble once in a while during the previous eight years.

I wouldn't boo myself, though, not even Mr. Bush. I think it's disrespectful treatment of a head of state. I even cringed at Ahmadinnerjacket's reception at Columbia, and he's a guy I think really IS evil, I mean Dick Cheney evil, not Bush League Evil like W43.

not arguing with you at all. All presidents get mumbled and grumbled at in Congress. Wilson took it further. I don't see the big deal in any of it. the 20 republicans walking out of Clinton's SOTU was far ruder than Wilson but they controlled Congress and nothing was done about it.

does the congress actually have rules allowing booing?

Phoenix McHeit
09-18-2009, 04:37 PM
Bush League Evil

:wink: The Diet Coke of Evil? Just one calorie; not evil enough.

Selena
09-18-2009, 05:18 PM
"Maryland is for crabs." <snippeth!>

Oh.my.gosh, man... let it go! :roll: Are you seriously giving a dissertation to a 45-year veteran of her home state stats?? Well shit then there, buddy, might as well tell me... yaknow, since I've from Teeexas and all, that we ALL wear cowboy hats and ride horsies and wear that there western-type clothing! YALL.
You know... since you seem to know everything about the territory in which we live.

Ravin' Raven
09-18-2009, 05:30 PM
gee, glad you are not a bigot. I never looked at southerner, northerner or westerner as insults. Just geographical and cultural facts.

oh, tell your tourism commission. Good that they have you to redefine history, culture and geography.


Thank you - you have now made it extremely easy for me to put you on ignore. No I am not a bigot. Saying I find begin called southern offensive makes me a bigot? Against whom exactly - I never said all southerners were nasty evil scum.

And your snide little comment just reiterates to me that you cannot have an intelligent conversation but you must pick - I never said that no one in Maryland may claim to be southern. I said I am not I am from the Eastern Shore - most of us don't even recognize the rest of Maryland as part of the same group as we are. I don't give a shit what silly claptrap someone, probably from a NY ad agency who has probably never set foot in the state, wrote for the board of tourism.

You, sir, are one of the most offensive, bigoted people I have ever experienced - you are bigoted against anyone who does not agree with every little factoid you gleen from the intrarwebs.

I will now reserve my brain cells for some original thoughts and drooling over Karl Urban (Sarah.....)

letitfly
09-18-2009, 06:07 PM
<snippeth!>

Oh.my.gosh, man... let it go! :roll: Are you seriously giving a dissertation to a 45-year veteran of her home state stats?? Well shit then there, buddy, might as well tell me... yaknow, since I've from Teeexas and all, that we ALL wear cowboy hats and ride horsies and wear that there western-type clothing! YALL.
You know... since you seem to know everything about the territory in which we live.


i could not not care less how she or anyone else define their identity. she can call herself Samoan but the Eastern Shore is still in the south. I know many people from the eastern shore and they all consider themselves to be southerners. I am call myself a martian, but NC is still southern. Both of your arguments are silly.
.

Selena
09-18-2009, 06:15 PM
Aaaandd, you're now ignored.
What'up ladies? Think that's a record as to how many of us wenches have set one person on ignore within the span of one thread? :wink:

MaidenFaeSnow
09-18-2009, 07:47 PM
Makes me wonder if he's ever stepped foot in Maryland. And I have to say, if I lived in New England somewhere, I'd probably think of any state south of me as "southern" and when folks use terminology like that, I'd bet that more often than not, it's an off the cuff comment, not one that they are trying to be technically correct about.

Take back your power Raven, don't let him bug ya. I know you well enough to know you don't need no stinkin' encyclopedia to make ya look smart ::kooky::


Thank you - you have now made it extremely easy for me to put you on ignore. No I am not a bigot. Saying I find begin called southern offensive makes me a bigot? Against whom exactly - I never said all southerners were nasty evil scum.

And your snide little comment just reiterates to me that you cannot have an intelligent conversation but you must pick - I never said that no one in Maryland may claim to be southern. I said I am not I am from the Eastern Shore - most of us don't even recognize the rest of Maryland as part of the same group as we are. I don't give a shit what silly claptrap someone, probably from a NY ad agency who has probably never set foot in the state, wrote for the board of tourism.

You, sir, are one of the most offensive, bigoted people I have ever experienced - you are bigoted against anyone who does not agree with every little factoid you gleen from the intrarwebs.

I will now reserve my brain cells for some original thoughts and drooling over Karl Urban (Sarah.....)

Ravin' Raven
09-18-2009, 07:53 PM
Makes me wonder if he's ever stepped foot in Maryland. And I have to say, if I lived in New England somewhere, I'd probably think of any state south of me as "southern" and when folks use terminology like that, I'd bet that more often than not, it's an off the cuff comment, not one that they are trying to be technically correct about.

Take back your power Raven, don't let him bug ya. I know you well enough to know you don't need no stinkin' encyclopedia to make ya look smart ::kooky::

Thanks doll...my biggest issue is someone else trying to tell me who I am based on random criteria...

oh and yeah baby...I'll pet your weasel....8-)

(just not in the right place right now to deal...you know I normally would....)

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-19-2009, 11:17 AM
What astounds me about this whole issue is that for the most part, the press surrounding this issue is painting the republicans and other conservatives with a broad brush of racism. I do not think that is an accurate representation of the party. Normally, I give Jimmy Carter a little more respect, even though I am in the fiscal and programatically conservative camp, but this comment was uncalled for.

What Richard said.

The racists and other kooks have taken over the party. Instead of being offended by the people who point that out, maybe y'all should clean house. Instead of letting them cry "I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!" (and wtf is up with that anyway?), you should be crying "I WANT MY PARTY BACK!"



Speaking of uncalled for, I find it interesting that the same people on this board who were cheering when Bush was Booed at during a public event( members here were defending it by implying that it is the privalage to show their sentiments) are claiming that calling the president a liar is unacceptable. How are these that different?

Are you asking what the difference is between a baseball game and a Presidential address before a joint session of Congress?

Do you really need an answer for that?

Gellis Indigo
09-19-2009, 11:31 AM
Are you asking what the difference is between a baseball game and a Presidential address before a joint session of Congress?

Do you really need an answer for that?

I'm asking what the difference is between a Presidential address before a joint sesson of Congress and a State of the Union Address.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0xO-ZQSoP8&NR=1

Selena
09-19-2009, 12:32 PM
Obama's assessment. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/18/barack-obama-this-week-in_n_292013.html)

I can agree to him to a certain point. However, there are some out there who just don't like him because of his color and are protesting under the guise of government dissatisfaction. They are out there.

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-19-2009, 12:39 PM
I'm asking what the difference is between a Presidential address before a joint sesson of Congress and a State of the Union Address.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0xO-ZQSoP8&NR=1

A) That's decidedly not the public event people here were cheering about.

2) I hear grumbling. I don't hear booing. I don't hear shouting. I don't hear a lone voice in the gallery shouting "you lie".

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-19-2009, 01:23 PM
"The Teabaggers want to call Obama a word, but they can't use it so they call him other bad names like communist and fascist and marxist. The word starts with N, ends with, ER, and its not 'nation builder'." --Bill Maher

Gellis Indigo
09-19-2009, 01:33 PM
Obama's assessment. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/18/barack-obama-this-week-in_n_292013.html)

I can agree to him to a certain point. However, there are some out there who just don't like him because of his color and are protesting under the guise of government dissatisfaction. They are out there.

Yes, they are out there. I don't think anyone here is denying that.

I continue to have a great deal of respect for President Obama's efforts to keep the focus off of race, and to try to bring to focus back around to the real issues and matters of State. It's a shame that many of his fervent supports, and those like Bill Maher don't follow his example.

And Bob, once again you've shown that when liberals complain about the namecalling that they perceive is being done, they resort to namecalling themselves.

Frankly, I'm sick of the hypocrisy on both sides of the aisle. All of the "it's ok when we do it, but when they do it we're gonna raise a holy ruckus," is old.

Gellis Indigo
09-19-2009, 01:40 PM
A) That's decidedly not the public event people here were cheering about.

2) I hear grumbling. I don't hear booing. I don't hear shouting. I don't hear a lone voice in the gallery shouting "you lie".

How about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsGaNR9dVPM&feature=player_embedded#t=131), where Pete Stark clearly refers to President Bush as a liar, not once, but twice? That one clear enough for you?

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-19-2009, 10:10 PM
And Bob, once again you've shown that when liberals complain about the namecalling that they perceive is being done, they resort to namecalling themselves.

I have? Where?

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-19-2009, 10:11 PM
How about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsGaNR9dVPM&feature=player_embedded#t=131), where Pete Stark clearly refers to President Bush as a liar, not once, but twice? That one clear enough for you?

You mean where the President wasn't even in the room and nevertheless at the end of the video Rep Stark was admonished by the Speaker? That video?

Selena
09-19-2009, 10:35 PM
How about this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsGaNR9dVPM&feature=player_embedded#t=131), where Pete Stark clearly refers to President Bush as a liar, not once, but twice? That one clear enough for you?

C'mon Gellis. You know that example is entirely different.

Why?

This man was speaking to his peers... informally, on the floor while GWB wasn't even there. He also did not interrupt a televised presidential address to Congress as a lone voice yelling out during the presidential speech to the entire Congress, Vice President, Speaker, et al.

Calling someone - your chief in command, a liar is one thing.
Calling someone - your chief in command to his face while in the middle of an official address is entirely different.

You know better than that, too.

Gellis Indigo
09-20-2009, 09:43 AM
You are still referring to one specific instance. I am proposing that this goes much deeper than that one incident.

Here is the part of the "primer (http://www.rules.house.gov/archives/house_comm_dec.htm)" put together by House Rules Committee Chairwoman Louise Slaughter for conduct both on the floor, and in committees.



Under section 370 of the House Rules and Manual it has been held that a Member could:
• refer to the government as “something hated, something oppressive.”
• refer to the President as “using legislative or judicial pork.”
• refer to a Presidential message as a “disgrace to the country.”
• refer to unnamed officials as “our half-baked nitwits handling foreign affairs.”

Likewise, it has been held that a member could not:
• call the president a “liar.”
• call the president a “hypocrite.”
• describe the president’s veto of a bill as “cowardly.”
• charge that the president has been “intellectually dishonest.”
• refer to the president as “giving aid and comfort to the enemy.”
• refer to alleged “sexual misconduct on the president’s part.”


So, I maintain that the video I provided of Pete Stark referring to President Bush as a liar is a valid example. Stark broke the House rules. No rebuke.

Am I defending Wilson and what he did/said. No. But do I think that hypocrisy is alive and well in Congress? You bet.

letitfly
09-21-2009, 09:30 PM
you have probably seen or heard it already, but Obama does clarify his heritage a little on Letterman tonight.