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Selena
09-20-2009, 10:14 PM
While I will admit I didn't realize calling the tea party protesters, "teabaggers", I honestly had NO idea of the term, both sexual (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=teabagger) and conservatively offensive. It is a term I hear daily... and honestly is still used on both sides.

But I just watched something today that is fucking scary. I don't care WHO you support political side. These people scare THE FUCK outta me.

Czar (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/czar)!!!!! Scary word!!!!!
FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR!!!

What is everyone SO afraid of???
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y&feature=player_embedded#t=571)


What I fear? I fear some asshat is going to murder our leader.

Is that what the repubs want??

Isabelle Warwicke
09-21-2009, 01:04 AM
Is that what the repubs want??

No. And if you honestly think that is the norm for the party, you have to seriously reset your thinking.

These people who were filmed are extremists in my party as the terrorists are to the religion Islam.

Although, I would liked to have been chanting "Shame on the press!"

Selena
09-21-2009, 09:26 AM
No. And if you honestly think that is the norm for the party, you have to seriously reset your thinking.

These people who were filmed are extremists in my party as the terrorists are to the religion Islam.

Although, I would liked to have been chanting "Shame on the press!"

Extremists? Yes. Absolutely! But shame on the press... nope.

They (the press) didn't manipulate these folks to say these things. What is really needed here, is the GOP to grow some balls and say they want their party back. My thinking doesn't need to be reset until that happens.

Just watch this Maddow (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32886436) report. It seems to say it all.

RichardMacHugely
09-21-2009, 03:34 PM
No. And if you honestly think that is the norm for the party, you have to seriously reset your thinking.

These people who were filmed are extremists in my party as the terrorists are to the religion Islam.

Although, I would liked to have been chanting "Shame on the press!"

Yes, and just as the crazy violent extremists have hijacked Islam while the majority has stood silently by, the extremists on the Right have hijacked the GOP, and "mainstream" Republicans have allowed them to do it without a squeak of protest. And quite a few of these "extremists" aren't really that EXTREME relative to the party. Sarah Palin with her fearmongering talk of "Death Panels" etc was number two on your ticket in 2008, and one of the current favorites for the top spot in 2010. Tom Delay is a "Birther", and he was the most powerful Republican in the House, for crissakes. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck are nutcases to be sure, but they're also the most influential conservative spokesmen out there. Your party is being run from the extreme radical right, if you don't like that, you have to take it back, but don't get pissed at us for pointing it out to you.

Thistle
09-21-2009, 03:39 PM
Tom Delay is a "Birther", and he was the most powerful Republican in the House, for crissakes.

The funny thing is, while Obama was born in the US (Hawaii), John McCain was not: he was born in Panama (on a US Military Base).

<<<< end of threadjack

Lady Sarah
09-21-2009, 03:47 PM
The funny thing is, while Obama was born in the US (Hawaii), John McCain was not: he was born in Panama (on a US Military Base).

<<<< end of threadjack

Doesn't matter. Military Base is still US Soil.

daBaroness
09-21-2009, 03:56 PM
Actually - it doesn't matter where a child is born - if one of the parents is a U.S. citizen - the child is automatically a U.S. citizen. The child could have dual citizenship, depending on the country of birth's laws. So I don't understand what the issue about Obama is - his mother was a U.S. citizen so he could be born in Botswana and still be a U.S. citizen.

RichardMacHugely
09-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Doesn't matter. Military Base is still US Soil.


McCain was born in the Canal Zone, which at that time was an overseas US Territory, like Guam. People born there at the time were US citizens. So, McCain was born on US Territory (not because he was born on a military base).

As for President Obama, even if he WAS born in Kenya as his critics claim, he would STILL be a natural born US Citizen, because HIS MOTHER WAS A US CITIZEN, and at the time Obama was born, the law stated that children born abroad to ONE US CITIZEN parent were citizens.


For persons born between December 24, 1952 and November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true [6]:

One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
The citizen parent lived at least 10 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.


Obama's mother met all of those conditions, so any of her children born abroad before November 14th 1986 would have been citizens automatically. All this crap about Obama being born in Kenya would be meaningless even if it were true, it's even stupider as the lie that it is.

Selena
09-21-2009, 04:17 PM
Isn't it a shame that the best thing these people can try to hold onto, insofar as their false claims, is that the man isn't a citizen.

Pathetic.

Is that all ya got? C'mon... give me something worth a shit... gimme something to chew on, ffs.

The court even threw out and warned the dipshit who brought the lawsuit (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/16/connie-rhodes-birther-cha_n_288814.html)(read the court's ruling... it's f'ing hysterical, btw) so she wouldn't do her job because she claims the man isn't from the country. Stupid chick should be court-martialed (is that even a verb? :snicker: who cares at this point!)

Bronya
09-21-2009, 07:13 PM
Just hope and pray for us that they will NEVER change the law and let someone not born in the US or not child of a citizen become Prez...look what the governator has done to Ca!

BronxGirl
09-21-2009, 08:03 PM
I especially love the woman who had been in healthcare for 20 years. Medicare has worked well and could be expanded . . . and then she picks up the 'Bury Obamacare with Kennedy' sign.

That is just so wrong on so many levels.

Laurensa
09-21-2009, 09:04 PM
Actually - it doesn't matter where a child is born - if one of the parents is a U.S. citizen - the child is automatically a U.S. citizen. The child could have dual citizenship, depending on the country of birth's laws. So I don't understand what the issue about Obama is - his mother was a U.S. citizen so he could be born in Botswana and still be a U.S. citizen.>>

Actually, it does matter. The phrase "natural born citizen" has long been interpreted as "born on US soil".

And since Hawaii was made a state in 1959 and Barack Obama was born there in 1961, it STILL doesn't matter.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-21-2009, 10:14 PM
but don't get pissed at us for pointing it out to you.

First of all, I'm not pissed about anything other than the fact that you, yourself Richard, consistently look down on anyone who posts anything even remotely conservative on this board. You instantly put them on the defensive, each and every time. I won't even enter into it with you.

I'm aware of the issues in my party TYVM. I'm doing my own work, I just don't wave it here because of the political dichotomies that have been created over the last few election seasons.

And yes, shame on the press for reporting on end all the frivolous and ridiculous things that make for news. Kanye West on CNN, really? And the Fracas that happened on the Potomac on September 11th didn't need pundits surmising and supposing for a Full Whole Day. SO yes, shame on the press, for their repeated inadequacy when it comes to reporting real news in it's entirety.

letitfly
09-21-2009, 11:26 PM
Hi,

I talked to someone today that was at the DC Tea Party but only because he was in DC for other reasons. He said that most of the crowd were normal appearing people with normal signage. He said that the nuttier groups and people were off in one section with all of the camera crews and you tube people.
I watched parts of about a dozen of the you tube videos and noted that most of videos had lots of the same people. The media is more attracted to the sound bites and clips to be found in the crazy side shows than interviewing the mainstream people that are to express their real concerns. The nut cases get air time, right or left.

The aerial photo that shows the huge crowd filling the mall seems to be fake. Not fake but from an event a few years ago. The real crowd was smaller. I would include a link but that seems to insult some folks.

And I really wish that I did go to Urban Dictionary to get the definition of "tea bagging." Ignorance can be pretty blissful.

LdyJhawk
09-22-2009, 12:21 AM
>>

Actually, it does matter. The phrase "natural born citizen" has long been interpreted as "born on US soil".

And since Hawaii was made a state in 1959 and Barack Obama was born there in 1961, it STILL doesn't matter.

What it's interpreted as, and what it means are two things.

I can interpret things any way I want to, it doesn't make the interpretation valid or meaningful when applied to the law

Isabelle Fawkes
09-22-2009, 01:10 AM
What it's interpreted as, and what it means are two things.

I can interpret things any way I want to, it doesn't make the interpretation valid or meaningful when applied to the law

You said a mouthful here!

Interpretation is a major issue when brought into any conversation. Everyone has their own viewpoint on politics, religion, reform, etc., and will defend their cause to the end!

What does it all means...?

This too is left to the interpretation of the individual.

letitfly
09-22-2009, 08:19 AM
This, like most issues, is not clear cut. I didn't know anything about it except I have read about the Goldwater controversy (AZ was a territory, not a state, when Goldwater was born). McCain was born in the Canal Zone in a hospital outside of US jurisdiction so that brings up his "natural born" status.

I am now fearful to include a link but here is one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

In a paper written 20 years ago for the Yale Law Journal on the natural-born enigma, Jill Pryor, now a lawyer in Atlanta, said that any legal challenge to a presidential candidate born outside national boundaries would be “unpredictable and unsatisfactory.”
“If I were on the Supreme Court, I would decide for John McCain,” Ms. Pryor said in a recent interview. “But it is certainly not a frivolous issue.”


and Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen

Regarding people born at U.S. military bases in foreign countries, current U.S. State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Department_of_State) policy (as codified in the department's Foreign Affairs Manual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Department_of_State_Foreign_Affairs_Manual)) reads:
"Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen#cite_note-13)
The foregoing section of the FAM only addresses citizenship by jus soli: In short, what is the geographic scope of the "United States"? This does not affect citizenship via jus sanguinis, i.e. those who are born abroad to U.S. citizens and who otherwise meet the qualifications for statutory citizenship.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen#cite_note-14) The State Department also asserts that "the fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a citizen for Constitutional purposes."[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen#cite_note-15) This position seems to be at odds with the fact that Congress in 1790 felt it could confer natural born citizenship on those born abroad to American parents. Ultimately, it will take a Supreme Court decision to settle the matter once an American citizen born abroad runs for and wins the presidency.


Beware those that insist everything is clear cut and simple. Nothing substantial ever is. That is, except the fact that MD and its outlying territory, the Eastern Shore, is still in the south though its citizens can claim any geographical adjective they choose or none at all.


And the ACORN videos may have been spliced and edited and one of the ACORN employees did call his cousin, a policeman. I still don't they should have ever had any federal funding regardless of how this all works out. They are not non-partisan.

RichardMacHugely
09-22-2009, 08:50 AM
This section of your post is of course the important bit:

>>>The foregoing section of the FAM only addresses citizenship by jus soli: In short, what is the geographic scope of the "United States"? This does not affect citizenship via jus sanguinis, i.e. those who are born abroad to U.S. citizens and who otherwise meet the qualifications for statutory citizenship.[15] <<<<

Children of foreign nationals born on US military bases do not automatically acquire US citizenship, not the same way they would if they were born in the US itself, where every baby is born into citizenship no matter what the status of the parents.

But both Obama and McCain were born to US citizens, and Obama was also born in the US, so both are native born citizens. The controversy is incredibly stupid, and shows how desperately out of ideas "conservatives" are these days.


>>>Beware those that insist everything is clear cut and simple. Nothing substantial ever is. That is, except the fact that MD and its outlying territory, the Eastern Shore, is still in the south though its citizens can claim any geographical adjective they choose or none at all.<<<

I also grew up in Maryland, Bowie in Prince George's County, to be specific, and the state is sometimes thought of as being part of the South, but is much more frequently considered to be part of the Mid-Atlantic region, which includes PA, NY, DE, and NJ. This is another incredibly stupid controversy.

Selena
09-22-2009, 09:06 AM
My whole point in even posting this to begin with is the mere fact that most of the arguements I see coming from the right fringe doesn't seem to have a whole lot of merit and it is successfully scaring the shit out of their flock. Why do they insist on making sure the public is scared out of their wits to get their way? Reminds me of the whole commie bullshit from the 50's.

We've got people running scared and bringing firearms to public events, now! What the hell is going on??

letitfly
09-22-2009, 10:09 AM
This section of your post is of course the important bit:

>>>The foregoing section of the FAM only addresses citizenship by jus soli: In short, what is the geographic scope of the "United States"? This does not affect citizenship via jus sanguinis, i.e. those who are born abroad to U.S. citizens and who otherwise meet the qualifications for statutory citizenship.[15] <<<<

Children of foreign nationals born on US military bases do not automatically acquire US citizenship, not the same way they would if they were born in the US itself, where every baby is born into citizenship no matter what the status of the parents.

But both Obama and McCain were born to US citizens, and Obama was also born in the US, so both are native born citizens. The controversy is incredibly stupid, and shows how desperately out of ideas "conservatives" are these days.


>>>Beware those that insist everything is clear cut and simple. Nothing substantial ever is. That is, except the fact that MD and its outlying territory, the Eastern Shore, is still in the south though its citizens can claim any geographical adjective they choose or none at all.<<<

I also grew up in Maryland, Bowie in Prince George's County, to be specific, and the state is sometimes thought of as being part of the South, but is much more frequently considered to be part of the Mid-Atlantic region, which includes PA, NY, DE, and NJ. This is another incredibly stupid controversy.



I think that no court would ever hear or challenge either Obama's or McCain's citizenship, the point being only that it is a legitimate point of discussion and that it has never been settled by any court. The Supreme Court has never ruled on the definition of "natural born."

The Court has implied before that there was a difference between being a "citizen" and a "natural born citizen" when it comes to being President.

In 1964, the Supreme Court seemed to say, without deciding, that "natural born" meant born inside the United States. In an opinion on an unrelated issue, the court observed, "The rights of citizenship of the native born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the 'natural born' citizen is eligible to be President." But that language is not legally binding, and the Supreme Court has never ruled on what "natural born" means. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23415028). This was, by the way, raised very seriously by liberals in 2008, probably the same ones that derided any questions about Obama's citizenship.

I know that you can not compute the fact that you do not know everything about all issues and that the liberal point of view is always correct and all other opinions worthy only of scorn and ridicule. I assume you are an expert on Constitutional law and theory and can readily explain why the Harvard Law Review would devote precious page space the previously attached article, why MSNBC would cover it, why does the serious Law Librarian blog cover it? Or the Michigan Law Review, The University of Arizona Department of Public Policy and about 100,000 other articles, some academic, some nutty. Snopes covered it about McCain (undetermined status).

All these academics and law scholars worrying about this stupid question and all they had to do was search out "Richard, Wenches Forum" to get a definitive scholarly answer. So much wasted time.

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/law_librarian_blog/2008/07/natural-born-ci.html,

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1157621

MD, north or south, just fun. I don't give a damn about N/S or E/W and never engage in all the yankee/rebel junk. I have no idea if my ancestors fought for other side or just stayed in the mountains and avoided it all and have zero interest in knowing. I don't see ancestry as a source of pride or interest. I can't comprehend the DAR. SCV, UCV, or any other type organization. I personally think the Confederate flag should not be flown on state buildings with the exception of museums and battlefields. I get the heritage argument but I think the racial issue trumps. But I can't get all worked up over it either way.

I said at the beginning MD was best described as mid-atlantic. The urban areas I consider more northern in character; when I am in rural MD I see no difference from VA.
I rose to the issue with the assertion that Wilson was a southerner, therefore a bigot when bigotry exists anywhere races and cultures intermingle. As for N/S issues, I seldom hear a southerner mention it but the northerners here seem to talk about it and make fun of local customs and accents incessantly. Just a couple of days ago my neighbors were laughing about how we stop for oncoming funeral processions or turn our headlights on and slow down if we can't stop. Doesn't seem so backward and ignorant to me but it sure amuses newcomers.

Margaret
09-22-2009, 10:20 AM
Part of it is mob mentality - no matter which side of the issue you are talking about. People are worried no matter if they are Repub or Dem. Worried about their jobs, their houses, their taxes and themselves. These big rallies provide some sort of anonymity for people, so they are more apt to take over the top actions. The froot loops of any group also take advantage of large gatherings. If you yell loud enough at an event where people are already fired up - you could spark something.

There is alot of numbers being tossed about - most of them starting with a 'B' and a 'T', as in Billions of dollars and Taxpayer dollars. Our budget is out of whack, billions of dollars just got sent out to auto companies and banks to bail them out, now the government is talking about setting up new plans and programs that will also cost billions. Money is not going to materalize out of the sky and magically appear to pay for all this.

The basis for many people's concern and fear is just that - "Where is this money going to come from and how will it affect me?! Valid concerns for certain.

Both the Democrats and the Republicans have their views and thoughts on this based on their parties philosophy. Politicians are throwing their 2 cents in because they actually have something worth while to say or they are trying to attatch themselves to an event so they appear important or can show their constituants that they are 'out there doing something'. It's the American people who feeling that they are not getting straight answers from anyone.

RichardMacHugely
09-22-2009, 10:27 AM
It IS stupid in Obama's case, because he was born in Hawaii, which even "conservatives", who make so many decisions based on faith instead of fact, must concede is part of the US.

Federal Law has also addressed the issue of cases like Sen. McCain, so he is also a natural born citizen.

Thistle
09-22-2009, 10:51 PM
Selena, I have to apologize for the threadjack going so far. Your concerns were over Tea Parties: the bit about where McCain and Obama were born was frivolous and out of context


-Thistle

letitfly
09-23-2009, 12:05 AM
Selena, I have to apologize for the threadjack going so far. Your concerns were over Tea Parties: the bit about where McCain and Obama were born was frivolous and out of context

-Thistle

not at all. The Birthers are a big part of the Tea Party movement, at least of the lunatic fringe of the movement. If you watch the videos, there are a lot of birthers running around. A lot of the Tea Party websites include birtherstuff.

Selena
09-23-2009, 08:44 AM
Selena, I have to apologize for the threadjack going so far. Your concerns were over Tea Parties: the bit about where McCain and Obama were born was frivolous and out of context

Aww, thanks. I know how these threads sometimes seem to take a life of their own, though! It's cool! ;-)

daBaroness
09-23-2009, 10:14 AM
I dunno - to me the term "birthers" just sounds wrong. Course I've always objected to the term "illegitimate" for children born to parents who aren't married. And then there's "bastards." My children were born out-of-wedlock but there's nothing illegitimate about them. I know it's an antiquated term and being the child of unmarried parents doesn't hold the social disgrace it once did - but really - can't we just get rid of the whole concept of being marked at birth by place, income and marital status of the parents? It's just so ... inconsequential.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-23-2009, 12:02 PM
It's just so ... inconsequential.

Unless you want to run for Predident someday.::badhair:

Artemisia
09-23-2009, 12:34 PM
My whole point in even posting this to begin with is the mere fact that most of the arguements I see coming from the right fringe doesn't seem to have a whole lot of merit and it is successfully scaring the shit out of their flock. Why do they insist on making sure the public is scared out of their wits to get their way? Reminds me of the whole commie bullshit from the 50's.

We've got people running scared and bringing firearms to public events, now! What the hell is going on??

Fear is a powerful motivator. Ask any US Marine in bootcamp.

Gellis Indigo
10-02-2009, 10:27 AM
Czar (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/czar)!!!!! Scary word!!!!!
FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR!!!

What is everyone SO afraid of???
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPMjC9mq5Y&feature=player_embedded#t=571)


Here's an article (http://www.regularfolksunited.com/index.php?tab=article_view&article_id=2547) that is written about one of these czars. It's not the fear of the term, it's the actual people that are put in the non-elected, non-Congress approved positions.

daBaroness
10-02-2009, 11:20 AM
Unless you want to run for Predident someday.::badhair:

I think my sons are safe from that insanity. Thank goodness their aspirations lead them in other directions and away from politics!