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Mistress Morigianna
09-21-2009, 09:44 PM
I have issues with this. I think anyone of any religion would have issues with thier kids being taken somewhere like this for school. Had the coach taken them to a pagan harvest ceremony- he would have been fired.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-09-07-kentucky-football-trip-baptisms_N.htm

By Andrew Wolfson, The (Louisville) Courier Journal
LOUISVILLE A mother is angry about a trip led by the head football coach at Breckinridge County High School. The coach took about 20 players on a school bus late last month to his church, where nearly half of them including her son were baptized.
Michelle Ammons said her 16-year-old son was baptized without her knowledge and consent, and she is upset that a public school bus was used to take players to a church service and that the school district's superintendent was there and did not object.


FAITH & REASON: Baptism field trip gives new twist to team spirit

"Nobody should push their faith on anybody else," said Ammons, whose son, Robert Coffey, said Coach Scott Mooney told him and other players that the Aug. 26 outing would include only a motivational speaker and a free steak dinner.

"He said it would bring the team together," Robert, a sophomore, said in an interview.

Two other parents, however, said in interviews that their sons told them that Mooney had said the voluntary outing to Franklin Crossroads Baptist Church in Hardin County would include a revival.

Mooney, contacted by phone, said school district officials instructed him not to comment.

But Superintendent Janet Meeks, who is a member of the church and witnessed the baptisms, said she thinks the trip was proper because attendance was not required, and another coach paid for the gas.

Meeks said parents weren't given permission slips to sign but knew the event would include a church service, if not specifically a baptism. She said eight or nine players came forward and were baptized.

"None of the players were rewarded for going and none were punished for not going," Meeks said.

David Friedman, general counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kentucky, said in an interview that the trip would appear to violate Supreme Court edicts on the separation of church and state even if it was voluntary and the school district didn't pay for the fuel.

"If players want to attend the coach's church and get baptized, that's great," Friedman said. But a coach cannot solicit player attendance at school, he said, noting, "Coaches have great power and persuasion by virtue of their position, and they have to stay neutral."

However, Matt Staver, founder and general counsel for Liberty Counsel, an Orlando-based group that provides free legal assistance in religious liberty cases, said there was nothing wrong with trip as long as it was voluntary and no public funds were used. He compared it to a coach inviting players to attend a play or to go see a baseball game.

Neither the ACLU nor Liberty Counsel is involved in the Breckinridge County case.

The U.S. Supreme Court has said in school prayer cases that "at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way that establishes a state religion or religious faith, or tends to do so."

In March, the court rejected an appeal from a high school football coach in New Jersey who wanted to bow his head and kneel during prayers led by his players, despite a school district policy prohibiting it.

Meeks said she would have sought the consent of parents for the baptism of students if they had been "7 or 8 or 9" years old. But she didn't think it was necessary for the players who are "16 or 17."

She said that if Robert's parents didn't know that the outing was going to include a revival service it was because "he apparently was not forthcoming with his parents."

The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could."

He said the event on Aug. 26 "was a great service" and that attendance by the players was strictly voluntary.

"I trust the coach 100%," he said of Mooney. "He is a fine young man and he is sure not going to manipulate anyone."

Two parents, Tim Bruington and Eric Vertress, said in interviews that they knew through their children that the trip would include a revival-type service.

Bruington said his son, Tyler, a senior, decided not to go. Vertress said his son, Matthew, elected to attend and that his mother drove to the church separately for the service.

Ammons, who lives in Big Spring, said that she is a Baptist but her husband, Danny, is Catholic, and that both feel like their son should wait until he is 18 to make important decisions on religion.

"We felt he was brainwashed," she said.

She said she was prepared to drop the matter until she found out that Meeks attended the service. She said she consulted a lawyer in Elizabethtown but hasn't decided what action she will take.

"They have no right to take my son on a school bus across county lines to be a church to be baptized," she said.

Margaret
09-21-2009, 10:13 PM
Wow. I would be livid.

The parents were out and out lied to and the coaches and the church just cheapened the Sacrament of Baptism.

It seems some of the parents knew that the kids would be going to 'some kind of revival' and were OK with that fact. Cool for them and their kids. Some of the parents knew and their kids stayed home. Cool for them and their kids as well. However, to baptise the kids there - at that time was a bad move.

Revivals can get exciting and kids can get caught up in a moment. Even if one of the kids jumped up and declared that he wanted to get baptised at that moment, the coach should have encouraged him to discuss it with his parents first. Baptism into a faith should not be a split second decision or a "Well, Joe and Bill did it, so why not?" type thing. It should not be taken lightly.

I hope the coach receives some sort of punishment and the kids and the parents can talk this out and process what occurred.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-21-2009, 11:18 PM
The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could."

Hello, did you bother to check for ID? Wow, igorance is not an excuse.

Blue Pixie
09-21-2009, 11:39 PM
The church's pastor, the Rev. Ron Davis, said that he requires minors to obtain their parents' consent to be baptized, but he added: "Sometimes 16-year-olds look like 18 years. We did the best we could."

Hello, did you bother to check for ID? Wow, igorance is not an excuse.

Not saying you were are wrong, but would you ever think that a priest would have to ID a bunch of 16 year olds. I'm more upset with the coach. He's suppose to be a trusted person and I know when I was in school we were told not to mix our religion with the job!

Ysobelle
09-22-2009, 01:01 AM
There's not a second's doubt in my mind the coach knew precisely what he was doing, and meant for this to happen. I'm very sure he considered it his duty as a Christian to bring these kids to Christ.

It cheapens what should be a sober and deeply-considered holy moment, and it's a gross abuse of his power and authority. I'm disgusted.

Redbird Annie Cardinal
09-22-2009, 07:43 AM
But what about personal responsibility in this matter? If some parents knew about this service, but this mother didn't, then her son obviously didn't tell her.

And if her views were so strong about her son waiting until he was 18 to be baptized, either she didn't tell him her feelings during their regular life before anything like this trip came up, or maybe she did, but he decided to get baptized there.

So either she didn't communicate her feelings to her son or he knowingly went against them, plus the fact he didn't share what the trip was to be about. Had she spoken with any of the other team members or parents, she might have found out more about the trip. If the venue of the trip was a Baptist Church, she should have had an inkling of what it might entail, especially since she is a Baptist herself.

I'm not saying that the coach was right, I'm just saying that if I were the mother, I would be ticked at my son.

Laurensa
09-22-2009, 07:50 AM
The coach said "If the parents didn't know, then obviously their child didn't tell them" (paraphrasing here)

Sorry, but if the school is taking MY child to any kind of event anywhere, it is the school's responsibility to send me a permission form detailing exactly what is going to be happening at this event.

And if they tell me they're going to any sort of religious activity, the answer's gonna be no. The onus is on the school to inform the parents.

Phoenix McHeit
09-22-2009, 08:54 AM
Meeks said she would have sought the consent of parents for the baptism of students if they had been "7 or 8 or 9" years old. But she didn't think it was necessary for the players who are "16 or 17."

Oh how nice. This person decided that a 16 y/o is no longer a minor, needing parental consent. :unamused:

So that means those parents won't get any more phone calls from the school regarding that child. No more PTA solicitations. No more bake sale donation requests. No more discipline 'issues'. No more fundraisers. No more report card signatures.

I'm sure all those things will now go to this Meeks person. Since she made the decision for them, y'know.

Jamianne
09-22-2009, 09:14 AM
I would have been pissed if that had been my kids. The coach did not have any right to take those kids to a religious event using a school bus, even if he did pay for the gas. You want your kids to come to your church, you invite them to come to a Sunday morning service. What I want to know was did this trip take place during say time that was normally a practice time? If so, I'd be doubly pissed.

Even if the kid knew what type of event it was and didn't discuss it with his parents, for something as sensitive as a religious event, there should have been a permission slip to the parents. And it should have included that there would be a baptism. Even if the players are 16 or 17. I remember needing permission slips my senior year when I was 18 to go on *any* field trip during the day or as part of one of my extra-cirriculars.

Sadly, even though what several of you ladies have already said is right - this *does* cheapen the meaning of what should be a serious event - I'm sure that this coach and his ilk don't care because now those kids are 'saved' or' have been 'brought to Christ' or whatever. :unamused:

Torra
09-22-2009, 09:51 AM
What everyone has said so far is dead-on: the coach knew what he was doing (free steak dinner? Bribe anyone??), the pastor should have figured it out (kids on a high school football team, as a team, will obviously not include only seniors), this Meeks woman, whom I sincerely hope does not inherit the earth since her decision-making skills are pathetic, has flaunted parental authority and legal obligation by deciding that 16 or 17 doesn't really mean "minor", and the sacrament has been cheapened.

I'll be interested to see where this goes, as I can see legal options on both sides. My heart really wants the parents of these boys to win a case against the school, etc. My cynical mind says they'll probably wiggle out of it, and even if they don't, they won't care because they did God's work. It's definitely not Christian behavior, I know that.

Leaving aside the religious aspect, I would be furious as a parent that my child's school chose to ignore the law and escorted him or her to an event that I was not made aware of. That's what it comes down to for me - you don't get to decide to ignore laws and regulations because it's a church you're going to. You don't get to tell me that my 16 year old isn't a minor when he or she isn't even old enough to go die for the country. Period.

Ysobelle
09-22-2009, 09:58 AM
Did the coach not know which of his kids were seniors and which weren't? Did he somehow conveniently forget which were which? Aren't they his students? Shouldn't he know, as he's a coach, and could very well have to act in loco parentis if someone gets hurt at a game?

And as for parents not telling the kids not to get baptized without the parents present, who even thinks about that? Seriously, has any parent ever thought to send Timmy off to school in the morning with a cheery, "Here's your lunch! Good luck on your science test! Don't get baptized!"

Gemdrite
09-22-2009, 12:51 PM
Did the coach not know which of his kids were seniors and which weren't? Did he somehow conveniently forget which were which? Aren't they his students? Shouldn't he know, as he's a coach, and could very well have to act in loco parentis if someone gets hurt at a game?

And as for parents not telling the kids not to get baptized without the parents present, who even thinks about that? Seriously, has any parent ever thought to send Timmy off to school in the morning with a cheery, "Here's your lunch! Good luck on your science test! Don't get baptized!"
No, but they also don't send them off with "Here's your lunch! Good luck on your science test! Practice safe sex!" Most parents, particularly religious ones, have had at least some kind of talk with their kids about their beliefs *before* they become teenagers. If she felt that strongly about it before, she really should have sat down with her kid and discussed how she felt and why she felt that way, just like any other topic parents need to discuss with their kids.

That being said, my biggest issue is that the coach didn't send home a permission slip. Regardless of age, any school function, sports or otherwise, requires a permission slip. It would have covered his butt when the fit hit the shan.

As far as using a school bus? Parochial schools rent public school busses all the time. It's really irrelevant to the story.

RichardMacHugely
09-22-2009, 01:00 PM
>>>>Most parents, particularly religious ones, have had at least some kind of talk with their kids about their beliefs *before* they become teenagers<<<<


Parents, whether they are religious or not, should be able to send their children off to public school or off on school organized field trips without having to worry about having their kids subjected to ANY sort religious indoctrination. The religious education of children should be left to the parents, not hijacked by the school coach under the guise of a "team building exercize". This is actually a VERY CONSERVATIVE idea, the concept that the State should stay out of the business of teaching religion to kids. The fact that today's "conservatives" don't have a problem with it, and indeed openly embrace and agitage for more state sponsored religious indoctrination, shows just how far today's "conservatives" have strayed into the realm of moral communism.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-22-2009, 02:48 PM
"conservatives"

Why do you do that? Why put quotes around the word conservatives every time you use it in conversation?

Curious.

Ravin' Raven
09-22-2009, 02:48 PM
This mom's biggest problem is that for some reason she seems think we have separation of church and state (things like, I don't know, schools) or some other such idiocy...

Silly woman.....8-)

The Wizard
09-22-2009, 02:54 PM
I have seen no post in this thread that indicates the poster has the slightest idea of what a Baptist Baptism is about. You are not 'Baptised into" the Baptist religion. Before I was Baptised, the Pastor and the Board of Deacons of the church interviewed me and my Parents. My Parents to discover what my religious background was and me to see if I was really 'born again'. When my time came to be Baptised, I joined that Pastor in the Baptistry and before he immersed me I made a public profession of my faith before the entire congregation.

Now there is an example in the Bible of someone who was so taken with the Gospel story that when he saw a stream he asked to be immediately Baptised by the Apostle who had converted him. All that being said the Pastor should never have been allowed to Baptise ANYONE who had not been examined as thoroughly as I was.

RichardMacHugely
09-22-2009, 03:16 PM
Why do you do that? Why put quotes around the word conservatives every time you use it in conversation?

Curious.


Because there are no real conservatives left, just people calling themselves "conservatives" who in actuality have very anti-conservative values.

Like in this case for example. A real conservative would be horrified at the idea of government-sponsored or compelled religious education of any kind. Genuine conservatives believe in effective but limited, fiscally restrained government, the sort of government that strictly limits its interference in the everyday lives of citizens. Taking kids to get baptized runs TOTALLY against that sort of real conservatism. So does prohibiting gay marriage, btw.

Today's crop of self-identified "conservatives" don't believe in THAT. They believe in a strong activist government that promotes religious values, specifically fundamentalist Christian values, and where necessary they believe in using the power of government to force compliance with those values. They don't believe that government can be "effective", rather they believe that everything the government does turns to crap, and they repeat the mantra "government isn't the solution, it's the PROBLEM" to convince themselves that this is true. One wonders then why they would seek to USE the government to spread religious values (wouldn't that then turn religion into crap?) but I've long since given up trying to rectify that particular bit of congnitave dissonance. This "government is the problem" attitude does however allow "conservatives" to fail spectacularly at governing, then blame the very essence of government itself, rather than their own incompetence. This is how we wind up with things like post-Katrina New Orleans for example.

And of course we've seen over the last eight years how much today's "conservatives" love to spend money. Real conservatives wouldn't have waited for a Democrat to enter the White House before they started throwing their Tea Parties, they would have revolted against President Bush 43 and thrown him out of office themselves in 2004.

daBaroness
09-22-2009, 03:26 PM
I have seen no post in this thread that indicates the poster has the slightest idea of what a Baptist Baptism is about. You are not 'Baptised into" the Baptist religion. Before I was Baptised, the Pastor and the Board of Deacons of the church interviewed me and my Parents. My Parents to discover what my religious background was and me to see if I was really 'born again'. When my time came to be Baptised, I joined that Pastor in the Baptistry and before he immersed me I made a public profession of my faith before the entire congregation.

Now there is an example in the Bible of someone who was so taken with the Gospel story that when he saw a stream he asked to be immediately Baptised by the Apostle who had converted him. All that being said the Pastor should never have been allowed to Baptise ANYONE who had not been examined as thoroughly as I was.

Most churches, denominations and religions require all members officially joining to take religious education of some kind. In some cases, it is a long-term commitment of time, energy and diligence, as well as some deep personal interspection to determine whether the doctrines and teachings of whatever religious organizaion the person is choosing. I grew up Presbyterian, and I spent a year in communicants class before I was officially recognized and welcomed into the church as a member. My parents took about a 6-week course to join and made some sort of public statement giving up their former memberships and in essense converting to Presbyterianism.

I remember helping my friend Judy study for her bat mitzvah, her official membership into the Jewish faith. I have worked with instructors at the Islamic School of Kansas City and several of my sons' friends attended there for several years for instruction in Islam, as well as their academic studies. I have friends who are Sikh's and spend LOTS of time in religious instruction.

I've also been to a Billy Graham Revival as well as some individual church revivals where there were alter calls to declare Jesus as savior - but no baptisms were done because they require religious education to take place prior to declaring membership in a particular church.

But I do know of (pardon the expression) rogue churches and organizations that do baptisms as part of their revivals (read enlistment campaigns). This case sounds just like one of those. For the coach to have done this and the pastor of the church to have baptized under-aged children (despite how old they appeared) without the consent of parents is an abomination. If my child wants to publically declare his faith and commitment to that faith - I want to be there to help him celebrate. Even as an adult when I joined the Association of Unity Churches - my parents were there.

Sadly - considering the location of this community and the prevailing attitudes in the Bible Belt - I would be surprised if anyone is prosecuted for this. It disgusts me that a teacher/coach and a pastor would contrive together so deceitfully to pad their membership.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-22-2009, 03:42 PM
Because there are no real conservatives left....

I suppose then that I'm a figment of my own imagination?


Genuine conservatives believe in effective but limited, fiscally restrained government, the sort of government that strictly limits its interference in the everyday lives of citizens.

Interesting that you just paraphrased the reasons for my political standings. I also would like to point out that I beileve in "good of the nation" before "good of the individual" which gives a Nationalist flavor to my conservatism. You presuppose that every conservative is a evangelical Christian. You are wrong. Christian Conservatism is a facet of my party, but not the definition of.


Today's crop of self-identified "conservatives" don't believe in THAT. They believe in a strong activist government that promotes religious values, specifically fundamentalist Christian values, and where necessary they believe in using the power of government to force compliance with those values.

I'm a self-identified conservative and I strongly oppose most of the fringe ideals in their entirety. I would never presume to paint the entire "liberal" party with the same brush you have used on the Right. It's offensive and has been one of the main causes I dislike discussing politics on this board.

Torra
09-22-2009, 03:52 PM
Isabelle has said it all. I too identify as conservative, and I don't believe Bush was a conservative - he's a Republican, but if you look at his policies, he's more liberal than anything, just happened to be Christian. That's neither here nor there, it's my opinion and think what you want, but I plan to hold to it.

Fundamentalists of whatever religion give all the others who adhere to the principles a bad name. I'm not even Christian and I'm conservative, and every time that comes up people assume I'm all for prayer in schools, religious education, Christian primacy in this country, etc., when I have spent most of my adult (and teen) life trying to get as far away as possible from that. To be frank, religious views shouldn't influence politics at all unless you happen to live in a theocracy, in my opinion.

Back on topic...daB, thank you for sharing your experiences with different groups. I agree that it seems like it's a tactic more than a sacrament in this case, and Wizard, you must admit that each group has sects that don't operate the way most do.

RichardMacHugely
09-22-2009, 03:53 PM
>>>You presuppose that every conservative is a evangelical Christian.<<<

No, I KNOW that the evengelicals have taken over control of your party, and the rest of you have allowed them to do it. If you support a platform and vote for candidates that push the fundamentalist Christian religious agenda, then it doesn't really matter if you personally are one of them or not. Politically, you are indistinguishable.

You continue to speak as if these people represent some "fringe" element, but that is no longer accurate. It is genuine conservatives who are in the minority over at the GOP these days, and if you are what you say you are, you should be madder about it than I am. Personally, I would love to see real conservatives make a comeback, I might even start voting Republican again.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-22-2009, 04:01 PM
No, I KNOW that the evengelicals have taken over control of your party, and the rest of you have allowed them to do it. If you support a platform and vote for candidates that push the fundamentalist Christian religious agenda, then it doesn't really matter if you personally are one of them or not. Politically, you are indistinguishable.

Funny, you again presuppose to know me and my actions. I didn't vote for any evangelical candidates. I routinely write my respresentatives to voice MY opinion. I am not idly standing by watching. I am not "allowing" anything, please believe me, I take as much umbrage with the Haters that you do, just from a different side of the aisle. And thanks again, for the slap in the face with the paint brush. You never fail to offend me, good to know at least you are consistent.


You continue to speak as if these people represent some "fringe" element, but that is no longer accurate. It is genuine conservatives who are in the minority over at the GOP these days, and if you are what you say you are, you should be madder about it than I am. Personally, I would love to see real conservatives make a comeback, I might even start voting Republican again.

We are going to have to disagree on the "fringe" idea. The people who yell the most shrilly are the ones who are getting the spotlight, unfortunately. That does not neccessarily make them the majority, just the ones of TV. And I blame the media and their poor journalism for that.

Ravin' Raven
09-22-2009, 04:28 PM
I have seen no post in this thread that indicates the poster has the slightest idea of what a Baptist Baptism is about. You are not 'Baptised into" the Baptist religion. Before I was Baptised, the Pastor and the Board of Deacons of the church interviewed me and my Parents. My Parents to discover what my religious background was and me to see if I was really 'born again'. When my time came to be Baptised, I joined that Pastor in the Baptistry and before he immersed me I made a public profession of my faith before the entire congregation.

Now there is an example in the Bible of someone who was so taken with the Gospel story that when he saw a stream he asked to be immediately Baptised by the Apostle who had converted him. All that being said the Pastor should never have been allowed to Baptise ANYONE who had not been examined as thoroughly as I was.

Actually I just think most of us were aware of what baptism means we just weren't worried about those details. And, btw - Baptist is not a religion. Christianity is a religion. And Christianity begat Protestant and Protestant begat Baptist :-D

Torra
09-22-2009, 04:29 PM
Baptist is not a religion. Christianity is a religion. And Christianity begat Protestant and Protestant begat Baptist :-D

Brownie points for biblical language!

Azura
09-22-2009, 05:36 PM
Actually I just think most of us were aware of what baptism means we just weren't worried about those details. And, btw - Baptist is not a religion. Christianity is a religion. And Christianity begat Protestant and Protestant begat Baptist :-D

Not according to my parents' "cult". They're the only true "Christians", and anyone who hyphenates their religion's name (like Catholic-Christian or Pentecostal-Christian or whatever) isn't "Christian", but another religion. So, to them, Baptists are a separate religion. Oh yeah, and people of nearly any age (they seem to discourage kids under the age of 8 from doing it) can be baptized whenever they get the inkling to. They suggest going through a study course afterward, but it isn't required. And you have to keep going to that church the rest of your life if you want to go to heaven.

Some of the many reasons I left.

Lady Hefron
09-22-2009, 05:48 PM
I always love it when someone tells me what I believe. It's so much fun. And here I was thinking that I was a conservative who was not a fundamentalist Christian. Wow, I know I'm getting forgetful but who would have thought I would have forgot going to church. Damn.

Ysobelle
09-22-2009, 06:19 PM
Actually, I think we're all missing the most important question of all:

Did the coach get his toaster?

Ravin' Raven
09-22-2009, 06:21 PM
Actually, I think we're all missing the most important question of all:

Did the coach get his toaster?

(with hand shaking sideways in the air).....Oi Nikki, Oi, just Oi!!!

LdyJhawk
09-22-2009, 06:48 PM
Baptising someone else's minor child is wrong. Baptising someone else's minor child while acting as a representative of a public school is worse.

Why is that even debatable?

Margaret
09-22-2009, 07:27 PM
Why is that even debatable?

There has not been one person on the thread who has said that the coach was correct or right in what he did.

DameGoode
09-22-2009, 08:14 PM
Okay, I have a real problem here. For some reason, people are thinking that this is a parental consent thing, coach thing, or/and a coach thing.

This is an extremely private and personal moment. If you choose a path, no parent has the ability to sway you from it. I have a real problem with people thinking that a person needs parental consent to choose or make a declaration of faith. You can choose to be an agnostic, Catholic, Wiccan, Iconoclast or Spirtualist and that is your path and your relationship with Higher Power, but it is NOT the path of your parent even if you are in the same religion. (Wow, run-on sentence much?)

I was 11 when I made my declaration of faith. I do not think I was too young. I knew what I was doing, and went forth with purpose.

They had the ability to say no. Other than some peer pressure, I really think that nothing wrong was done here. Seperation of church and state, (which is NOT in the constitution) is not an issue here. NO MONEY from school or government was used. This is a case where I really think that this mother wants the STATE to get into the affairs of the church. no thank you

shyanwench
09-22-2009, 10:20 PM
This situation makes me sick to my stomach. How dare that coach use those kids like that... holy hell no... He's lucky it wasn't one of my kids, he'd be wanting to me his maker by the time I got though with him...

Shit like this infuriates me!:rip:

Redbird Annie Cardinal
09-22-2009, 11:09 PM
But why is everybody overlooking the fact that the event wasn't on school time, it was optional, no school money was used, and nobody forced the boy to go up and get baptized?

If he was a churchgoer, and his mom said she is a Baptist, then he must have an inkling of what a baptism is and what it involved, and if he made the choice to be baptized, it was his choice.

The article didn't say that every boy on the trip went up to be baptized, nor did it say the coach pressured him to do so. Why didn't the mother ask more questions about the trip, if she knew it was going to be held at a church, especially since she is a Baptist and knows about these kinds of events?

If this 16 year old boy is so immature that he either lied to his mother about the trip or neglected to give the full information, then it should have been the mother's responsibility to make the phone calls to find out exactly what it entailed. I know when my sons were teenagers, I knew their friends, all about their trips, I called the school for more information if I didn't like the answers my son gave, and if my son came home and said he was going to a steak dinner motivational event at a Baptist Church, sure as he**, I would have called to get more information about it and not just take my son's word for it.

Selena
09-23-2009, 09:42 AM
But why is everybody overlooking the fact that the event wasn't on school time, it was optional, no school money was used, and nobody forced the boy to go up and get baptized?

Because a high school official solicited the boys? Someone they look up to, trust, and aspire to please?

Also, peer pressure, if you recall from your own teenage years, is a pretty powerful force. So yes, I feel in a way, they were forced to a degree.

Phoenix McHeit
09-23-2009, 09:52 AM
If you choose a path, no parent has the ability to sway you from it. I have a real problem with people thinking that a person needs parental consent to choose or make a declaration of faith.

As a parent, I certainly would want to BE THERE if my child were to choose a different path than mine. To say nothing of it being on such a spur of the moment.

That coach had NO RIGHT to encourage this without contacting each parent and inviting them to attend as well.

And that whole 'he didn't tell her' thing? Uhh, no. Every trip my boys have been on had a parental consent form, which detailed exactly what, who, when, where, why and how. Teenagers 'forget' stuff, they leave things out, they aren't precisely the most forthcoming species on any given day. It was the coach's responsibility to inform the parents where, what, etc.

Margaret
09-23-2009, 10:27 AM
Here are my issues with the entire thing with the whole coach/school/parents not notified thing removed:

If my family were practicing and church going Baptists and this occured, I would still be unhappy. Not due to the fact that my son chose to get baptised, but that I would have missed an event I would have liked to been part of.

If my family were Lutheran, Catholic or anything other than Baptist and practicing church go-ers, I'd still be unhappy. I would be glad that my child chose to get baptised, but also sad that I was not there to be a part of it. Also, I'd want to make sure that he understood what it ment to be baptised.

In those cases above, the kid probably understood what it ment to get baptised due to his education within his home church and felt it was right at the time. He would be old enough to understand. I made my Confirmation at 13 or 14. I had been baptised as an infant and then went through my Confirmation classes to learn more about the Lutheran Church and what it ment to 'be' Lutheran. Also, with me being 'upset', yes - I agree, it is selfish for me wanting to witness such an important event in my child's religious life.

If my family did not attend any church but still believed in God and the whole nine yards, I would be upset because it would seem my kid made a decision without doing any 'reasearch'. Yes I would still see his baptism as a good thing, but I would hope he would have thought more about the faith he was baptised into.

If my family did not believe in God I would feel as if my kid had been railroaded by his coach.

If my family practiced a non-Christian religion and attended services or observed rituals I would also be livid. At the baptism and my kid. My kid would already have a religion he practiced. If he was happy with that religion, he would not need to be baptised into yours. If the kid was unhappy with the way his family worshiped, he should have said something.

I would just want to be sure my kid knew what he was doing when he got baptised. I would want to be a part of it. I would not want to wonder if he really understood what Baptism is and what occurs because of it or if it was just a "why not" kind of decision.

BronxGirl
09-23-2009, 01:53 PM
(bolding mine)

If my family were Lutheran, Catholic or anything other than Baptist and practicing church go-ers, I'd still be unhappy. I would be glad that my child chose to get baptised, but also sad that I was not there to be a part of it. Also, I'd want to make sure that he understood what it ment to be baptised.



I can't say for any other Christian religion, but Roman Catholics get baptized pretty damn soon after being born, usually within the first month or so.

I'd be more than livid is this happened to my child.

Margaret
09-23-2009, 02:30 PM
Yeah - since I am Lutheran, I don't know anything about Catholic baptismal practices. In our church we get baptized as babies as well.

Selena
09-23-2009, 03:07 PM
I would just want to be sure my kid knew what he was doing when he got baptised. I would want to be a part of it. I would not want to wonder if he really understood what Baptism is and what occurs because of it or if it was just a "why not" kind of decision.


I think you have something here... a "why not" kinda thing.

I'm thinking these kids... and they are kids... don't realize the severity of this decision. When I was 15/16, I sure as hell didn't understand the complexity of religion and at the age of 40, I'm still learning it! What makes us (in general) think they truly understood this decision... especially at the implied desire of their coach at his church.

Margaret
09-23-2009, 03:20 PM
Right in one Selena.

I was explaining the article to one of my co-workers here jsut to help gague my reaction to the story.

One of his comments was: You don't really want to put the decision of getting baptised or not on par with hemming and hawing over buying a bag of chips.