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GoodyTombShoes
10-08-2009, 08:32 AM
I don't know if anyone remembers the Pennsylvania mom who made the news for bringing her loaded sidearm to her daughter's soccer game. They tried to tell her she wasn't allowed and she proved them wrong. There was a lot of local debate over guns and rights and shootings. She was shot and killed in a murder-suicide last night, with her children in attendence.
I never liked guns. I learned to shoot them like the rest of the family. I learned how to clean and maintain a safe weapon. I stopped liking them when my mom leveled a shotgun at my dad's head. It seemed that access to a weapon wasn't always a good thing. No, she didn't shoot him. She did pull that trigger.
Here's the link to the story: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=8778572

Selena
10-08-2009, 08:52 AM
How sad and terrible for those kids, but it sounds like the judge in the matter is now having his "I told you so" moment. He was right... the farking woman's judgement should have been questioned and she never should have had the right to carry to begin with.

Just because it's your "constitutional right!" doesn't mean that you should.

daBaroness
10-08-2009, 09:01 AM
I hate to sound cavalier, especially since there are now three children without parents. But I guess the saying, "live by the sword (gun), die by the sword (gun)," is appropriate here. I have a dear friend who has a conceal and carry permit and he wouldn't dream of wearing his gun in public places out in the open. He wouldn't wear it period if it was a venue for children. Oh brother.

Conall Crow
10-08-2009, 12:23 PM
While I feel common sense would tell someone not to carry their gun to someplace like a kids soccer game... I do have to question the Sheriff's decision. "He (The Sheriff) said he based his decision on a state law that prohibits certain gun permits from being given to anyone whose character and reputation make him or her a danger to public safety." Was there other times when this mom made similar bad choices or was this her first? While I think the Sheriff needed to do something, I think he may have overreacted. Had anybody tried to talk with her, asking her to not wear the gun while at the childrens activities. Alot of this may be in the original story about this woman at the soccer game, but I don't remember all the details. Just some thoughts running thru my mind.

Artemisia
10-08-2009, 12:31 PM
/snip/ Just because it's your "constitutional right!" doesn't mean that you should.

But who gets to decide who should or shouldn't carry a gun? Obviously the ball was dropped in this situation.

Reaper
10-08-2009, 12:33 PM
It's called CONCEALED CARRY for a reason. You should be carrying it CONCEALED so that no one knows you're carrying it. Don't openly display it, especially not with kids around.

Guess this is another fine example of a self correcting problem.

Gemdrite
10-08-2009, 12:40 PM
While I feel common sense would tell someone not to carry their gun to someplace like a kids soccer game... I do have to question the Sheriff's decision. "He (The Sheriff) said he based his decision on a state law that prohibits certain gun permits from being given to anyone whose character and reputation make him or her a danger to public safety." Was there other times when this mom made similar bad choices or was this her first? While I think the Sheriff needed to do something, I think he may have overreacted. Had anybody tried to talk with her, asking her to not wear the gun while at the childrens activities. Alot of this may be in the original story about this woman at the soccer game, but I don't remember all the details. Just some thoughts running thru my mind.
Playing devil's advocate, how many times should a person be allowed to make a bad choice before the consequences are put in effect? She brought a gun to a child's soccer game, freaking out a lot of people because it doesn't make sense. A gun isn't exactly something you want to waffle on, since a gun in the wrong hands can cause a lot of damage. I am not against people having/carrying guns, but as has been pointed out many times here at the forums, responsible owners don't do stupid things with guns. And she did a stupid thing. I think I support his decision simply because if he hadn't revoked her license and then she did go and do something stupid, he would have been nailed for not taking it the first time.

It's a hard call, I think, and I think the Sherriff was trying to err on the side of caution, if indeed he did err at all.

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 01:30 PM
She brought a loaded weapon, openly, to a child's game. Then she was shot and killed by her husband, who also killed himself, with their kids in the house.

I'm sorry, but how much more do you have to hear before you just start screaming "Unstable!"?

Ravin' Raven
10-08-2009, 01:30 PM
It's called CONCEALED CARRY for a reason. You should be carrying it CONCEALED so that no one knows you're carrying it. Don't openly display it, especially not with kids around.

Guess this is another fine example of a self correcting problem.

Actually there are two types of permits - concealed carry and carry - I believ this lady had the right to carry but not concealed. Most states are much more strict on the concealed version. I have a friend who has one because her husband is a quadreplegic so he is considered at a high risk for victimization. In my home state it's damned near impossible to get a concealed carry until AFTER you have been victimized.

Selena
10-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Not sure what the laws are in PA regarding guns laws. Regardless of the laws of what you can and cannot do, the woman was obviously unstable.

I mean really... who the fuck wears a LOADED GUN (as a civilian) to your kid's soccer game?? What the hell is that all about? I'm all for protecting yourself, but ffs.... really??

Isabelle Warwicke
10-08-2009, 02:41 PM
Actually there are two types of permits - concealed carry and carry - ... In my home state it's damned near impossible to get a concealed carry until AFTER you have been victimized.

The state that I live in doesn't have a concealed/carry permit AT ALL for citizens. I strongly disapprove of that. I also wouldn't openly wear my weapon to a kids' game.

It's a shame that their children had to bear witness to their brand of crazy.

Blue Pixie
10-08-2009, 03:33 PM
For Pennsylvania you can carry concealed:

http://www.pafoa.org/law/carrying-firearms/concealed-carry

Although I will say they make is sound easier then it is (at least what I have been told).

Phoenix McHeit
10-08-2009, 03:59 PM
There are a lot of folks jumping to conclusions here. (No, I didn't know her or the family)

IIRC, for the soccer incident, she was on her way home from target shooting at a range. Had to pick up her child. Game ran overtime. She left the car to watch the rest of the game. If she had left the weapon in her car, and something would've happened, she's liable. She had the permit to carry, so she carried. Kept it on her person, so nothing bad could happen. Which nothing did. In my mind, that's a responsible gun owner.

What would all you armchair-quarterbacks have done?

A woman was shot and killed by her husband, in front of their children, and all anyone can say was she was unstable???

FFS, I thought this forum was better than that. :unamused:

I hope they find peace - all of them. ::candle::

Gemdrite
10-08-2009, 04:03 PM
What would all you armchair-quarterbacks have done?
Honestly? I would have stayed in the car. Yeah, I would have wanted to see my child play. However, I also know that carrying a loaded gun to a child's soccer game would be frowned upon, and it might make other people nervous. It would not have killed her to wait in her car for her child, like she was planning on doing anyways until it went to overtime. It's one of those choices that as adults we have to make, even if we don't like them. Do I understand her wanting to see her kid play? Sure, I get it. But I also know that sometimes we have to make decisions we don't like, because it's the better choice in the long run.

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 04:21 PM
Wait-- are you saying you don't think she was unstable? I mean, him, too, obviously, but...there was obviously something tragically wrong, here.

Selena
10-08-2009, 04:28 PM
Has anyone else noticed that the news story as referenced above keeps changing? I know I didn't read the first time around that the dad was a parole officer and former correctional officer for a state facility! I know that wasn't there before!

So he worked in the field... did she??

BronxGirl
10-08-2009, 04:45 PM
As far as the game, did she think to UNLOAD the gun?

The Wizard
10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
It's called CONCEALED CARRY for a reason. You should be carrying it CONCEALED so that no one knows you're carrying it. Don't openly display it, especially not with kids around.
Yeah, and the reason is that you're ALLOWED to carry it concealed but that doesn't mean you're REQUIRED to carry it concealed.

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 05:26 PM
Yeah, and the reason is that you're ALLOWED to carry it concealed but that doesn't mean you're REQUIRED to carry it concealed.



Far as I know, there are places where it must be concealed, pretty much for exactly the reasons we're talking about now. A gun freaks some people out.


Okay, I asked a friend who has some fairly intimate knowledge of PA gun laws: if you have a concealed weapons license, YOU MUST CARRY CONCEALED. IOW, yes, you ARE required to conceal your weapon.

Gemdrite
10-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Yeah, and the reason is that you're ALLOWED to carry it concealed but that doesn't mean you're REQUIRED to carry it concealed.
Wizard, I'm not sure I understand your point, could you please clarify? It sounds like you agreed with what you quoted, but then said the exact opposite. The point you quoted was that if she had a concealed carry permit, she should have carried it concealed. You said yeah, but then said that it doesn't mean she is required to carry it. So it seems like you agreed that she should have concealed, but then defended her and said she didn't have to. Please clarify?

The Wizard
10-08-2009, 06:12 PM
Sorry about that, Gem, I only meant to quote the first sentence. Most places have laws AGAINST carrying concealed weapons unless you have a special permit, and such a permit normally only ALLOWS you to carry concealed. As to the PA law REQUIRING that the weapon be concealed, that's incredible.

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 07:11 PM
As to the PA law REQUIRING that the weapon be concealed, that's incredible.


Why is it incredible? I mean, isn't this story the perfect example of why it's a good idea? You carry a gun, okay, whatever. I don't want to see it. I mean, if you're used to guns, that's one thing. But most people aren't. And once you know it's there, once you see it, it often becomes the only thing you can see. It's extremely unsettling. Especially if I'm at an event where there are lots and lots of kids.

Jamianne
10-08-2009, 07:21 PM
What I don't quite get is how her carrying a gun around and her husband killing her are related?

Do I think she made some very poor decisions about when and where she carried? Absolutely. I didn't see anything that indicated she was in law enforcement or other position that would require it. The article had a quote the she carried her gun everywhere, including the grocery store and was talking to someone at the door with a rifle in her hands. It also said she ran a baby sitting service out of her home. As a parent, I'd be a little concerned about leaving my kids with someone who was constantly carrying a loaded gun around.

Though perhaps if there hadn't been such easy access to loaded firearms, the husband wouldn't have killed her and himself and their poor kids wouldn't have to deal with it for the rest of their lives.

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 07:33 PM
Though perhaps if there hadn't been such easy access to loaded firearms, the husband wouldn't have killed her and himself and their poor kids wouldn't have to deal with it for the rest of their lives.


That was sorta my point.


A friend of mine in that area just said, "I just found out a former student of mine killed his wife and then himself." I have a horrible, sinking feeling it has to be the same couple-- there can't be that many murder-suicides in central PA. I hope.

The Wizard
10-08-2009, 07:59 PM
Why is it incredible? I mean, isn't this story the perfect example of why it's a good idea?
No, this is a story about nutcase who killed his wife and himself, his handgun was a weapon of opportunity. If he had used his car's exhaust to kill them both would you want cars to be outlawed? If he had used a Samurai Sword to kill his wife would SHE need a permit to carry one? Since his job REQUIRED him to carry a weapon the screening process for that job was obviously not rigorous enough.

If people are scared when they see an exposed weapon the problem is with THEM, not the carrier, unless that carrier had purposely exposed the hidden weapon as a threat--the same can be said of any weapon, even a baseball bat.

Which would appear to be more suspicious, a person walking down the street carrying a baseball bat over his shoulder or the same person carrying the same bat hidden under a long overcoat?

Selena
10-08-2009, 08:34 PM
If people are scared when they see an exposed weapon the problem is with THEM, not the carrier

Actually, I disagree. A loaded gun is completely different than a bat...and you know it. I wonder if these little soccer games were held on school property. Many schools these days, including all the ones in my city, have a "zero tolerance" for weapons of ANY kind on school grounds.

There's a reason for this policy, doesn't matter what my view on their rules are.

Ravin' Raven
10-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Okay just to give the mom the benfit of doubt for a minute...

Maybe...just maybe...she knew her husband had the potential for this level of violence and carried her gun for her and perhaps her children's protection but didn't really want to shout out to the world "hey my husband is a controlling homicidal nutcase and has threatened to kill us all - I'm trying to protect my children but let them do the things they want to do like play soccer".

If that were the case then she did the best she could in a really bad situation and tried to protect her children. If we would have, instead gotten a story of an abused mother who died trying to protect her children we'd have been praising her.

Possible?

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 08:56 PM
Sigh.

"If he'd killed her with a bat, would you want bats outlawed?"

Man, how many times do we have to go through THAT argument? No. There's a big old flaw in your logic, there. I wouldn't want bats outlawed. Because the purpose of a bat is to play baseball. The purpose of a gun is to kill people.

Gemdrite
10-08-2009, 09:04 PM
No, this is a story about nutcase who killed his wife and himself, his handgun was a weapon of opportunity. If he had used his car's exhaust to kill them both would you want cars to be outlawed? If he had used a Samurai Sword to kill his wife would SHE need a permit to carry one? Since his job REQUIRED him to carry a weapon the screening process for that job was obviously not rigorous enough.

If people are scared when they see an exposed weapon the problem is with THEM, not the carrier, unless that carrier had purposely exposed the hidden weapon as a threat--the same can be said of any weapon, even a baseball bat.

Which would appear to be more suspicious, a person walking down the street carrying a baseball bat over his shoulder or the same person carrying the same bat hidden under a long overcoat?
Honey, you are going a little off the deep end. Nobody here, nobody, said guns should be outlawed. What was said is that concealed carry guns *must* be concealed is a good idea, because the sight of a loaded gun does not suggest a problem with other people. Do *I* know what kind of training *you've* had with said gun? Do *I* know if *you* even have a permit for said gun? I may not know a thing about that person except that
they are carrying a *loaded* gun to a child's soccer game. Yeah, I'm gonna be a little freaked out and suspicious. And I should be.

Oh, and Yso, I would change that just slightly....the purpose of a gun is to kill. Not necessarily people, but kill all the same. It can be used for other purposes, just like a baseball bat, but the purpose behind the creation of a gun was to kill.

Ysobelle
10-08-2009, 09:20 PM
Honey, you are going a little off the deep end. Nobody here, nobody, said guns should be outlawed. What was said is that concealed carry guns *must* be concealed is a good idea, because the sight of a loaded gun does not suggest a problem with other people. Do *I* know what kind of training *you've* had with said gun? Do *I* know if *you* even have a permit for said gun? I may not know a thing about that person except that
they are carrying a *loaded* gun to a child's soccer game. Yeah, I'm gonna be a little freaked out and suspicious. And I should be.

Oh, and Yso, I would change that just slightly....the purpose of a gun is to kill. Not necessarily people, but kill all the same. It can be used for other purposes, just like a baseball bat, but the purpose behind the creation of a gun was to kill.



Yup-- you're absolutely right. On all of it, actually.

Conall Crow
10-09-2009, 03:22 AM
Didn't think I was playing the devil's advocate earlier. Since I am not totally familier with the earlier story I had some questions and mixxed thoughts. While I don't agree with her choice to carry the gun in the open with children running around, I do think the Sheriff went a bit to far trying to revoke her license. Somethings I haven't seen reported yet are... Was the gun loaded or unloaded? Did anybody think of asking before attacking her as being "unstable"? Couldn't the Sheriff talk to her and ask her to not carry the guy to anymore games? Without knowing all the details and everything that actually happen, I think if things were handled a bit differently, then maybe this would have been taken care of without becoming National News.

As far as this having something to do with her death at the hands of her husband... Did his job require the husband to carry his own weapon? If so, he could of used his own weapon to murder her before killing himself. While she was quilty of bad judgement when it came to carrying at the soccer game. But when she was shot and killed by her husband, she was the victim.

GoodyTombShoes
10-09-2009, 05:36 AM
I posted this because of the painful irony. She won her right to carry her weapon for safety. She deserved to carry her sidearm because the bill of rights says she can. It didn't protect her from the one evil lurking in her own home, domestic violence. She fought for something to make her feel safe and what she needed was a safe house for battered women. I hope her children find peace in this world. How utterly sad.

daBaroness
10-09-2009, 09:45 AM
As to what she could have done with the loaded gun rather than sit in the car or carry it to watch the soccer game?

It's called a gun box. You put the gun in it and you lock it. Then you put it in the trunk. I know gun afficinados who have gun boxes permanently installed in their vehicles for just such an event.

As for how the woman packin' a loaded firearm to a kid's soccer game and ultimately dying due to gun violence - they may or may not be related. But if you have ready access, and little impulse control - any old argument can turn deadly. It's called (sad) irony.

My friend has an extensive collection of firearms. He also has trigger locks on each one and then each one is kept in a very massive gun safe. He does this for several reasons. First - were he ever burglarized - that formidable safe would be the last thing anyone would want to mess with. Second - the trigger locks make it more difficult to use the guns - particularly on impulse.

That said, I'm the kind of person who really wouldn't be comfortable living with guns in my home. However, even I have had a softening of my views over the last 10 years with the escalation of violence in general and the brazenness of people "out there" who wouldn't hesitate to cause me harm.

I would venture a guess that in this particular scenario - two people wielding guns with apparent abandon - in front of their children and in public - was probably a foreseeable tragedy waiting to happen. Frankly - though the children are now parentless - in this case that might be their saving grace.

RichardMacHugely
10-09-2009, 10:06 AM
>>>Actually, I disagree. A loaded gun is completely different than a bat...and you know it.<<<

The Wizard is simply employing that old intellectually lazy argument that since pretty much anything can be used as a deadly weapon, but aren't subject to any form of regulation as deadly weapons, then items that are deadly weapons by design and sole function should also be free from regulation.

It goes something like this: "I could kill you by suffocating you under a huge pile of marshmallows, but marshmallows are perfectly legal, so guns should be too."

The obvious answer here is that marshmallows are light and fluffy treats made of sugar whose main function (by design) is to taste great in hot cocoa or on s'mores.

Hand guns, on the other hand, have one function only: To hurl a small lead projectile at great velocity into a human being, causing damage to the body up to and including death. Even "recreational" target practice is all about improving the user-gun interface to improve performance in the prime function of killing people.

The need to regulate gun ownership should be obvious, even to people like me who support gun ownership rights.

And this lady's myspace name was "shefearsnothing". If she was so fearless, why did she need a gun?

Ysobelle
10-09-2009, 10:23 AM
Sigh. Sadly, my friend's former student was indeed Scott Hain. She's pretty upset.

Gah.


And Richard, will you stop rephrasing what I said in a more concise and elegant manner? You're making my English teachers twitch.

Selena
10-09-2009, 10:29 AM
"I could kill you by suffocating you under a huge pile of marshmallows, but marshmallows are perfectly legal,

I dunno about that. Have you ever seen a marshmallow in a microwave? Duuuude... that's pretty effing lethal.

Gemdrite
10-09-2009, 10:40 AM
Didn't think I was playing the devil's advocate earlier. Since I am not totally familier with the earlier story I had some questions and mixxed thoughts. While I don't agree with her choice to carry the gun in the open with children running around, I do think the Sheriff went a bit to far trying to revoke her license. Somethings I haven't seen reported yet are... Was the gun loaded or unloaded? Did anybody think of asking before attacking her as being "unstable"? Couldn't the Sheriff talk to her and ask her to not carry the guy to anymore games? Without knowing all the details and everything that actually happen, I think if things were handled a bit differently, then maybe this would have been taken care of without becoming National News.
I didn't say you were playing devil's advocate, I said I was.

And yes, the original article posted in this thread said that the gun she took to the soccer game was loaded.

Isabelle Warwicke
10-09-2009, 10:48 AM
Why are you all victim blaming? (Most of you anyway.) She was murdered by her husband. Many women are murdered by their husbands and we wail and knash out teeth at the perpetrators of those crimes. Why is this woman different? Why are you blaming her for what her husband did with his own weapon?

Ysobelle
10-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Why are you all victim blaming? (Most of you anyway.) She was murdered by her husband. Many women are murdered by their husbands and we wail and knash out teeth at the perpetrators of those crimes. Why is this woman different? Why are you blaming her for what her husband did with his own weapon?



I don't think anyone's blaming her. I know I'm not. I'm just saying that from what we're being told, with guns seemingly so prominent in the house, and her so ill-advisedly (imo) militant about them, this is indeed tragically ironic, and slightly less than surprising. No less sad for that.

Conall Crow
10-09-2009, 01:03 PM
Sorry Gemdrite, I read your post when I got home after a long day at work. Now that I reread it, I understand what you were saying. Guess I should try and remember to wait n post when I have had a good nights sleep. ;-)


I didn't say you were playing devil's advocate, I said I was.

And yes, the original article posted in this thread said that the gun she took to the soccer game was loaded.

The Wizard
10-09-2009, 02:53 PM
Actually, I disagree. A loaded gun is completely different than a bat...
Of course they're different, that's why the bat makes a perfect example. People have been bludgeoned to death for millennia, much longer than firearms of any sort have existed and a skilled person with a bat can bludgeon to death an unskilled person with a gun.


As to what she could have done with the loaded gun rather than sit in the car or carry it to watch the soccer game?

It's called a gun box. You put the gun in it and you lock it. Then you put it in the trunk.
A friend of mine explained to me that when he travels between his home and the shooting range he has his guns dismantled and in a gun box but is REQUIRED to carry a loaded firearm to DEFEND the gunbox, just as gunshop clerks wear sidearms to protect the weapons they sell. Leaving a locked gun box in her car would be ridiculous--worst case they steal the car and open the box at their leisure.


The Wizard is simply employing that old intellectually lazy argument that since pretty much anything can be used as a deadly weapon, but aren't subject to any form of regulation as deadly weapons, then items that are deadly weapons by design and sole function should also be free from regulation.
Actually I'm taking the lazy person's argument to the extreme to show that IT is absurd, what Rush calls "illustrating absurdity by being absurd".

"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; ... when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - Henry St. George Tucker, in Blackstone's 1768 Commentaries on the Laws of England.
..and for those of you who don't know, the above quoted text is otherwise known as Blackstone's Legal Dictionary.

Molly The Pirate
10-09-2009, 03:17 PM
i, personally, am terrified of guns. gimme a sword and we'll be fine. but i'm even frightened of an airsoft pistol so... lol..
but in the seriousness of the matter, i feel sorry for this woman in a way. yeah, she's an IDIOT for carrying a loaded weapon to her kids soccer game, but it's not a good way to die. i don't really think that she was that unstable... only just for bringing it to the kids game.
and as for the baseball bat/marshmallow/gun part of the discussion... i dont care what you kill someone with, you've still killed someone. and now that the husband shot his wife and then himself, i hope he burns for it. i dont care how bad of an argument you get it, dont shoot someone for it.. damn.
now for the lighter side of the conversation, some weird part of me thought of this as soon as the whole "gun banning" thing came up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsN0FCXw914

Selena
10-11-2009, 11:28 PM
what Rush calls "illustrating absurdity by being absurd".

well, of course then.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6c/Rush_Hemispheres.jpg

Isabelle Warwicke
10-12-2009, 02:02 AM
well, of course then.



I hate Rush. Makes me want to wreck my car to turn off the radio.

Selena
10-12-2009, 09:22 AM
I hate Rush. Makes me want to wreck my car to turn off the radio.

Ditto ditto ditto!

AnnaFaerie
10-12-2009, 11:25 AM
I hate Rush. Makes me want to wreck my car to turn off the radio.

Amen!

Phoenix McHeit
10-12-2009, 01:03 PM
I hate Rush. Makes me want to wreck my car to turn off the radio.

Love the band, but I'd do that to turn off the talk show speaking guy. ::kooky::

Azura
10-12-2009, 05:29 PM
"Illustrate abusurdity by being absurd"? Does that mean that Rushie has been a troll to the right wing this whole time? That would explain his behavior.

RichardMacHugely
10-13-2009, 01:46 PM
Of course they're different, that's why the bat makes a perfect example. People have been bludgeoned to death for millennia, much longer than firearms of any sort have existed and a skilled person with a bat can bludgeon to death an unskilled person with a gun.


A friend of mine explained to me that when he travels between his home and the shooting range he has his guns dismantled and in a gun box but is REQUIRED to carry a loaded firearm to DEFEND the gunbox, just as gunshop clerks wear sidearms to protect the weapons they sell. Leaving a locked gun box in her car would be ridiculous--worst case they steal the car and open the box at their leisure.


Actually I'm taking the lazy person's argument to the extreme to show that IT is absurd, what Rush calls "illustrating absurdity by being absurd".

"The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; ... when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." - Henry St. George Tucker, in Blackstone's 1768 Commentaries on the Laws of England.
..and for those of you who don't know, the above quoted text is otherwise known as Blackstone's Legal Dictionary.

So let me get this straight, you're saying that it is "absurd" to point out that guns are lethal weapons by design, and have no other purpose, and that in this regard they are different from pieces of sporting equipment like baseball bats?

And you got this idea from Rush Limbaugh?

'nuff said.