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Buxom Wench
07-20-2010, 06:30 PM
This (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html) has me scratching my head, wondering WTF?!


Pat Condell on Ground Zero mosque:
"Is it possible to be astonished, but not surprised?"

Lady Hefron
07-20-2010, 10:30 PM
This one has me mad. It is the wrong place.

Ravin' Raven
07-20-2010, 10:34 PM
No it is not the wrong place and it shouldn't surprise anyone. Muslims died that day as well. So did buddhists, hindustani, atheists, and everything else you can think of.

To not acknowledge the complete and utter horror of that moment is unthinkable and no better than the bloody terrorists who perpetrated it.

Tell you what, Timothy McVey was a Christian. How about we don't allow crosses at the Murrah Building. Yeah, didn't think so.

LdyJhawk
07-20-2010, 11:05 PM
This one has me mad. It is the wrong place.

This site is not hallowed ground. It was a terrible tragedy that occurred and, like Ravin said, people of all religions died that day. Building a Mosque there is not disrespectful.

Assholes killed those people. That they were Muslim is secondary to the fact that they were extremist assholes. Christian extremists have hurt people yet we still allow crosses.

surlywench
07-21-2010, 01:38 AM
I was under the impression that it's not a mosque - it's a community center with a worship space inside? Is this incorrect, and it is solely a mosque?

Not that it matters, except that "mosque at ground zero" is way more inflammatory than "community center with a worship space at ground zero".

just sayin.

Phoenix McHeit
07-21-2010, 08:09 AM
C'mon Surlz - Inflammatory? Coming from a site called 'Jihad Watch'? Surely you're mistaken. :roll:

I'm actually surprised at you Bux, for posting from that source.

Isabelle Fawkes
07-21-2010, 08:24 AM
C'mon Surlz - Inflammatory? Coming from a site called 'Jihad Watch'? Surely you're mistaken. :roll:

I'm actually surprised at you Bux, for posting from that source.

Funny, but when I Googled this, there were dozens of "news" sites carrying the story.

Torra
07-21-2010, 08:24 AM
Ok, here's my take on it. I don't agree with it, but they have a right to put it there. However, I was extremely suspicious of it because of the name. It was originally named "Cordoba House", and has now changed the name to Park51 (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/07/14/2010-07-14_new_name_doesnt_mosque_their_ire_tense_hearing_ on_park51_near_ground_zero.html). Not a big deal, right?

Well, the fact that it was to be named Cordoba House is highly suggestive to me, given the history of what Cordoba is to Islam. You can read here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain) that Cordoba, Spain "in the Middle Ages it was capital of the Islamic caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_Cordoba) which conquered and occupied Spain for nearly 800 years. During this time Cordoba was one of the largest cities in the world whose name continues to represent a symbol of Islamic conquest to many faithful Muslims around the world."

They chose to name a mosque being built at ground zero something that represents a very negative idea considering all the lives lost on Sept. 11. I don't know if it was stupidity, thoughtlessness, or a planned and calculated risk (that it would fly under the radar), but I don't like it. I don't object to their right to build whatever they want provided the permits are obtained, but I also don't expect objections to my right to disagree. They have changed the name to Park51 to "emphasize the community aspect" instead of the religious one, but when this name change follows protests and other such demonstrations I can't help but wonder if there isn't some political gain in the name change as well.

As others have said, many people died that day, of many walks of life, and all deserve to be honored. I don't want to prevent that. I want it to be a genuine gesture, and given what I stated above, I don't know for sure that this is it. But there are a lot of people who can and will disagree with me, and that's a good thing since it takes all kinds of people to have a great and diverse community.

Buxom Wench
07-21-2010, 08:29 AM
Would it have been different if I had posted the video from a YouTube site?

The comments made by people after the video were varied, as they are here.
As far as I see it, yes Muslim terrorists are the ones who destroyed the WTC but,
not all muslims are terrorists. I don't believe in using a giant brush to paint one religion or group.
There are asshats in all religions. No religion is exempt.

The thought of this post was not the source but the message itself.

Ravin' Raven
07-21-2010, 11:00 AM
Well, the fact that it was to be named Cordoba House is highly suggestive to me, given the history of what Cordoba is to Islam. You can read here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B3rdoba,_Spain) that Cordoba, Spain "in the Middle Ages it was capital of the Islamic caliphate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_Cordoba) which conquered and occupied Spain for nearly 800 years. During this time Cordoba was one of the largest cities in the world whose name continues to represent a symbol of Islamic conquest to many faithful Muslims around the world."

They chose to name a mosque being built at ground zero something that represents a very negative idea considering all the lives lost on Sept. 11.

That period is also considered one of great enlightenment within Islam. It was a time when the Caliph worked to restore order to the world and bring a deeper understanding of the positive attributes of Islam to the world. It was also a time of prosperity and little unrest in that area. Many of the worlds current cultures are the result of conquest - gee, like the US. So because we started with a group of plundering pilgrims does that mean the name of our culture and its contributions to the world should not be weighted equally both good and bad? So everything that has Virginia in the name represents how we plundered the new world and brought disease and mayhem to the natives? No.

Phoenix McHeit
07-21-2010, 12:00 PM
Would it have been different if I had posted the video from a YouTube site?

Yes, actually it would have. Because YouTube isn't extremist, in any direction.


As far as I see it, yes Muslim terrorists are the ones who destroyed the WTC but,
not all muslims are terrorists. I don't believe in using a giant brush to paint one religion or group.
There are asshats in all religions. No religion is exempt.

The thought of this post was not the source but the message itself.

Great - but then what had you going WTF in your original post?

Phoenix McHeit
07-21-2010, 12:02 PM
So because we started with a group of plundering pilgrims does that mean the name of our culture and its contributions to the world should not be weighted equally both good and bad? So everything that has Virginia in the name represents how we plundered the new world and brought disease and mayhem to the natives? No.

I adore you, and your rational thoughts. :ilu:

...even though the stinky forums won't let me rep you. grumblegripestinkingsystemgrumble

Buxom Wench
07-21-2010, 12:27 PM
Great - but then what had you going WTF in your original post?

I just didn't realize that religious centers of ANY religion were part of the rebuild.
I'm used to seeing religious gatherings in thier own temple, mosque, church, what have you. Not in a "business complex", as it were.

Vyxen
07-21-2010, 01:22 PM
I'm used to seeing religious gatherings in thier[SIC]own temple, mosque, church, what have you. Not in a "business complex", as it were.

Well, speaking as a member of a buddhist lay association, we don't have temples, since 13 million of us were excommunicated in 1991 (see Guiness Book of World Records).

We do have community and activity centers located in cities near where large numbers of our members live, and they are often in "business parks" because of the rent.

And a leader in our lay association was on the first plane from Boston to hit the Twin Towers that day.

Member SGI-USA.

BronxGirl
07-21-2010, 02:53 PM
I generally don't post in this forum because of past history, but as a native New Yorker who still lives in the city, I felt I needed to on this one.

First of all, it is NOT being built on 'ground zero' (I hate that term). The Burlington Coat Factory is not as close as people seem to be making it and has been empty for at least the last 10 years. I passed it every day going to work from the subway.

Secondly, it was approved by the Community Board in that area.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/05/26/nyc-government-votes-in-favor-of-wtc-mosque/

Torra
07-21-2010, 02:58 PM
That period is also considered one of great enlightenment within Islam. It was a time when the Caliph worked to restore order to the world and bring a deeper understanding of the positive attributes of Islam to the world. It was also a time of prosperity and little unrest in that area. Many of the worlds current cultures are the result of conquest - gee, like the US. So because we started with a group of plundering pilgrims does that mean the name of our culture and its contributions to the world should not be weighted equally both good and bad? So everything that has Virginia in the name represents how we plundered the new world and brought disease and mayhem to the natives? No.

It's not about what the actual history is, in my opinion. It's about what the idea of it represents to those who view it. Europeans have used various ideas/tenets from Catholicism and Christianity or other philosophical systems to add credence to outrageous acts. The idea of the "American attitude" can be interpreted to mean entitlement to lands or conquest, yes, and there's a reason for that. It's not about good or bad contributions during any particular time, but rather the way that people choose to interpret it. I don't care if the Caliph restored order or was the reason a region prospered if extremists or fundamentalist religious leaders are using that period to excuse their actions, the exact same way I don't like that we as Americans used Manifest Destiny as an excuse for crummy behavior across the board. Sure, we populated an area and allowed for expansion of our country, leading to some great innovations, but at the same time we almost completely eradicated the Amerindians (what we hadn't finished off before) and the culture of the American West. Using a name for something that means X to a group, regardless of its historical actuality (good and bad), puts that something in a position to be associated with X. In this case, I don't like what X (Cordoba) means to fundamentalist Muslims.

Ysobelle
07-21-2010, 03:02 PM
People think I drink the blood of Christian babies at Passover every year. Doesn't make them correct.


It's only the Baptist babies, anyway.

Lady Sarah
07-21-2010, 08:26 PM
I have to admit, the thought of a Mosque being established near Ground Zero.... It makes me uncomfortable. I can't explain it, it just does. The community center, however, more power to the organizers. Just keep a place of worship away from the site.

ALL places of worship, not just Muslim.

No, GZ isn't hallowed ground, but for a lot of people it's pretty damned close. One would have thought that the sensitivity to that fact would have been a factor.

Ravin' Raven
07-21-2010, 08:39 PM
It's not about what the actual history is, in my opinion. **snip**

Using a name for something that means X to a group, regardless of its historical actuality (good and bad), puts that something in a position to be associated with X. In this case, I don't like what X (Cordoba) means to fundamentalist Muslims.

The first sentence is what amazes me about how modern societies see the world. The actual history is what SHOULD matter. Not some politicized version: unfortunately that's mostly all we have anymore - wikihistory. And current "fundamentalist muslims" (I'm assuming we mean jihadist type radicals here) probably give a shit less about Cordoba. The version of the Koran that they "follow" is no more similar to the Koran of the Cordoba era than the KJV of the bible is to the bible of several centuries ago. They aren't trying to glorify Allah and the history or their religion, they are trying to glorify themselves. QED they are no more like the muslims of the Cordoba era than any modern Christian is like Saint Peter. (Just to clarify I do not personally equate "fundamental" or "orthodox" to "radical" or "extremist" but I think that's what was meant that's why I'm using that term here.)

My opinion is that there should be a multidenominational site for all of us to go and see and learn from. I have read the Koran. it is a beautiful, beautiful piece of religious work.

Nikki - southern congregation or all? Hmmm? Remember, I eat babies all the time! Well, okay, I sacrifice them on an altar to a goat headed god but still, why let them go to waste afterwards. :mmph:

Bronxie: thank you for weighing in. I always appreciate your opinions.

AnnaFaerie
07-21-2010, 09:02 PM
People think I drink the blood of Christian babies at Passover every year. Doesn't make them correct.


It's only the Baptist babies, anyway.

Oh...I just laughed so hard I almost fell off my chair!

Bean
07-21-2010, 09:19 PM
I adore you, and your rational thoughts. :ilu:

...even though the stinky forums won't let me rep you. grumblegripestinkingsystemgrumble


I got your back, Phee! One rep point added for RR.

Bean
07-21-2010, 09:22 PM
I don't know how I feel about this.... I might have a stronger reaction if I lived in NYC. I do have a cousin that almost died that day, but managed to escape the area before both towers fell.

I guess if the local community is okay with the project then that should be the end of the discussion. They are the ones who will be directly affected by this. Our feelings and opinions don't mean squat.

Ravin' Raven
07-21-2010, 09:38 PM
I got your back, Phee! One rep point added for RR.

Thank you ladies. Both of you. I don't always manage to stay rational but I do try. ::kooky::

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-21-2010, 10:19 PM
I generally don't post in this forum because of past history, but as a native New Yorker who still lives in the city, I felt I needed to on this one.

First of all, it is NOT being built on 'ground zero' (I hate that term). The Burlington Coat Factory is not as close as people seem to be making it and has been empty for at least the last 10 years. I passed it every day going to work from the subway.

Secondly, it was approved by the Community Board in that area.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/05/26/nyc-government-votes-in-favor-of-wtc-mosque/

Exactly. The proposed site is 2 blocks away and Ground Zero isn't even visible from the proposed site, and vica-versa.

Also, they had no obligation whatsover to seek approval from the local Community Board, but they did so anyway out of courtesy.

And as Surlz said, it's not a mosque, it's a community center with a worship space inside. You're not going to see giant parapets in the sky.

There's been a lot of stuff said about this over the last few months, and much of it has been ignorant, and much of it has been hateful and bigoted, and much of it has been shameful, particularly in a country that claims religious freedom and tolerance as one of it's founding principles.

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-21-2010, 10:20 PM
People think I drink the blood of Christian babies at Passover every year. Doesn't make them correct.


It's only the Baptist babies, anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrP6HRWWUAo

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-21-2010, 10:28 PM
I have to admit, the thought of a Mosque being established near Ground Zero.... It makes me uncomfortable. I can't explain it, it just does. The community center, however, more power to the organizers. Just keep a place of worship away from the site.

ALL places of worship, not just Muslim.

No, GZ isn't hallowed ground, but for a lot of people it's pretty damned close. One would have thought that the sensitivity to that fact would have been a factor.

There currenly exist at least 6 churches that are closer to Ground Zero than the proposed "mosque" will be (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=churches&sll=40.712142,-74.012403&sspn=0.005725,0.007918&ie=UTF8&split=1&rq=2&ev=zi&hq=churches&hnear=&ll=40.711915,-74.012414&spn=0.005725,0.007918&z=17).

There currently are 2 synagogues that are as close as or closer than (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Synagogues&sll=40.711915,-74.012414&sspn=0.005725,0.007918&ie=UTF8&hq=Synagogues&hnear=&z=16) the proposed "mosque" to Ground Zero.

Should we knock those down?

Lady Hefron
07-21-2010, 11:01 PM
I have to admit, the thought of a Mosque being established near Ground Zero.... It makes me uncomfortable. I can't explain it, it just does. The community center, however, more power to the organizers. Just keep a place of worship away from the site.

ALL places of worship, not just Muslim.

No, GZ isn't hallowed ground, but for a lot of people it's pretty damned close. One would have thought that the sensitivity to that fact would have been a factor.

This right here. Ground Zero (not fond of that name either) is a graveyard. Leave it, don't politicize it or use it as a religious soap box.

Ysobelle
07-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Exactly. The proposed site is 2 blocks away and Ground Zero isn't even visible from the proposed site, and vica-versa.

Also, they had no obligation whatsover to seek approval from the local Community Board, but they did so anyway out of courtesy.

And as Surlz said, it's not a mosque, it's a community center with a worship space inside. You're not going to see giant parapets in the sky.

There's been a lot of stuff said about this over the last few months, and much of it has been ignorant, and much of it has been hateful and bigoted, and much of it has been shameful, particularly in a country that claims religious freedom and tolerance as one of it's founding principles.


There currenly exist at least 6 churches that are closer to Ground Zero than the proposed "mosque" will be.

There currently are 2 synagogues that are as close as or closer than the proposed "mosque" to Ground Zero.

Should we knock those down?



Oh, now, you want to start bringing actual FACTS into this, you're going to make Fox News cry.

Lady Sarah
07-21-2010, 11:32 PM
There currenly exist at least 6 churches that are closer to Ground Zero than the proposed "mosque" will be (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=churches&sll=40.712142,-74.012403&sspn=0.005725,0.007918&ie=UTF8&split=1&rq=2&ev=zi&hq=churches&hnear=&ll=40.711915,-74.012414&spn=0.005725,0.007918&z=17).

There currently are 2 synagogues that are as close as or closer than (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Synagogues&sll=40.711915,-74.012414&sspn=0.005725,0.007918&ie=UTF8&hq=Synagogues&hnear=&z=16) the proposed "mosque" to Ground Zero.

Should we knock those down?

Were they there before 9/11? I'm thinking they were.

It wasn't Christian Extremists that were involved in 9/11. It wasn't Jewish Extremists involved in 9/11. It was, unfortunately, Islamic Extremists. THAT is the sensitive issue I'm speaking of.

I stated my feelings, not a wish to tear things down just because they're religious places. That you even had the balls to ASK me that question speaks volumes to just how much of a sonofabitch you can be when you're on your soapbox.

It's posts like yours that remind me why I stay away from this forum. Thank you for reminding me.

LdyJhawk
07-21-2010, 11:43 PM
This right here. Ground Zero (not fond of that name either) is a graveyard. Leave it, don't politicize it or use it as a religious soap box.

By that logic it would be disrespectful to build ANYTHING there as it is disturbing the final resting place of lost lives

Ravin' Raven
07-21-2010, 11:44 PM
This right here. Ground Zero (not fond of that name either) is a graveyard. Leave it, don't politicize it or use it as a religious soap box.

Again...this proposed center is not at GZ. It's quite aways away.

And unfortunately your request not to politicize it is about 9 years too late. It became a political tool within minutes of its happening. That's just the way we roll in this country.

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-21-2010, 11:50 PM
Were they there before 9/11? I'm thinking they were.

It wasn't Christian Extremists that were involved in 9/11. It wasn't Jewish Extremists involved in 9/11. It was, unfortunately, Islamic Extremists. THAT is the sensitive issue I'm speaking of.

I stated my feelings, not a wish to tear things down just because they're religious places. That you even had the balls to ASK me that question speaks volumes to just how much of a sonofabitch you can be when you're on your soapbox.

It's posts like yours that remind me why I stay away from this forum. Thank you for reminding me.


You said "...Just keep a place of worship away from the site. ALL places of worship, not just Muslim"

I'm not sure why my seeking clarification of that statement suggests that I come from canine parentage.

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-21-2010, 11:57 PM
This right here. Ground Zero (not fond of that name either) is a graveyard. Leave it, don't politicize it or use it as a religious soap box.

I agree completely.

Of course, the only people who have been doing that are the ones standing in opposition to a muslim organization building a community center TWO BLOCKS AWAY, not actually on top of the remains of 9/11 victims, as the opposition rhetoric would seem to imply.

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 12:04 AM
This topic was being discussed on another board that I frequent, and some genius had the following offering:


"OK, it still seems weird for Muslims to want to be that close to ground zero on a daily basis."

For those who are similarly map-impared to the quote-provider above, "that close to ground zero" is what we east-coast elitistis call Lower Manhattan.

Hundreds of thousands of people live and work "that close to ground zero on a daily basis." People and Muslims even.

It's people who think like that that are the problem. Not "the Muslims".

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 12:07 AM
By that logic it would be disrespectful to build ANYTHING there as it is disturbing the final resting place of lost lives

You only think you're being rhetorical.

There is a small but vocal contigent of "9/11 families" who are strongly opposed to ever rebuilding anything on the "footprints" of the two towers.

Fortunately, British people in the late forties were not of a similarly-minded, otherwise London would probably be the world's largest patchwork graveyard.

Ysobelle
07-22-2010, 12:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrP6HRWWUAo



I'm not going to beat you with a halibut. I'm going to beat you with a smoked whitefish!

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 12:50 AM
The first sentence is what amazes me about how modern societies see the world. The actual history is what SHOULD matter. Not some politicized version: unfortunately that's mostly all we have anymore - wikihistory.

I believe Dr. Stephen Colbert calls it "truthiness" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness).

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 12:55 AM
I'm not going to beat you with a halibut. I'm going to beat you with a smoked whitefish!

What? It should kill you to give me some Nova at least?

Ysobelle
07-22-2010, 12:57 AM
I should give you the good stuff? Why couldn't you at least be a doctor like your cousin Harold?

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 01:01 AM
I should give you the good stuff? Why couldn't you at least be a doctor like your cousin Harold?

Oy! :roll: Harold's a schmuck! You want I should be a podiatrist like him and touch people's stinky feet all day? You're meshuggeneh!

Ysobelle
07-22-2010, 01:24 AM
Well, AT LEAST HE CALLS!

surlywench
07-22-2010, 01:34 AM
Deep Thoughts, by Sarah Palin (INORITE?????!!!!!!!SQUEE!!!!!)

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=410610473434&id=24718773587&ref=mf


and for those who can't read it via failbook, here is the text:
--------------------------------------------------------
An Intolerable Mistake on Hallowed Ground
Tuesday at 11:59pm

Earlier today, Mayor Bloomberg responded to my comments about the planned mosque at Ground Zero by suggesting that a decision not to allow the building of a mosque at that sacred place would somehow violate American principles of tolerance and openness.

No one is disputing that America stands for – and should stand for – religious tolerance. It is a foundation of our republic. This is not an issue of religious tolerance but of common moral sense. To build a mosque at Ground Zero is a stab in the heart of the families of the innocent victims of those horrific attacks. Just days after 9/11, the spiritual leader of the organization that wants to build the mosque, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf, suggested that blame be placed on the innocents when he stated that the “United States’ policies were an accessory to the crime that happened” and that “in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.” Rauf refuses to recognize that Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of our ally, Israel, and refuses to provide information about the sources of funding for the $100 million mosque. Rauf also plays a key role in a group behind the flotilla designed to provoke Israel in its justifiable blockade of Gaza. These are just a few of the points Americans are realizing as New York considers the proposed mosque just a stone’s throw away from 9/11’s sacred ground.

I agree with the sister of one of the 9/11 victims (and a New York resident) who said: “This is a place which is 600 feet from where almost 3,000 people were torn to pieces by Islamic extremists. I think that it is incredibly insensitive and audacious really for them to build a mosque, not only on that site, but to do it specifically so that they could be in proximity to where that atrocity happened.”

Many Americans, myself included, feel it would be an intolerable and tragic mistake to allow such a project sponsored by such an individual to go forward on such hallowed ground. This is nothing close to “religious intolerance,” it’s just common decency.

- Sarah Palin

-----------------------------------------------------------------


U GUIZ, TEH TERROISTZ IZ BUILDIN IT!!!!

Ysobelle
07-22-2010, 01:39 AM
This is nothing close to “religious intolerance,” it’s just common decency.




A Muslin group wants to build a community center in a disused building in New York. Muslims want to be Muslims in New York. And it's "indecent." I'd love to know what, exactly, she thinks religious intolerance is.

daBaroness
07-22-2010, 01:48 AM
People think I drink the blood of Christian babies at Passover every year. Doesn't make them correct.


It's only the Baptist babies, anyway.

You kill me! LOL

Hey I'd like to volunteer the babies from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, KS as your next Passover beverage source. It's all in the family there yanno!

OK - it's a sick joke - and I'm standing by it!

LdyJhawk
07-22-2010, 02:32 AM
A Muslin group wants to build a community center in a disused building in New York. Muslims want to be Muslims in New York. And it's "indecent." I'd love to know what, exactly, she thinks religious intolerance is.

Well she did also call it sacred ground..

Sacred. SACRED. the site of the world trade center, just like Jerusalem, Mecca, Temple of Heaven only in America...

Selena
07-22-2010, 09:53 AM
Deep Thoughts, by Sarah Palin

The Whore of Babble-On did not write this. She has a ghost writer named Rebecca Mansour.

And just like everything else she touches with her name on it, it turns to shit as she continues to spread her hate and violence across this country. She is a fraud and her mask is being exposed as we speak.

AnnaFaerie
07-22-2010, 10:58 AM
The Whore of Babble-On did not write this. She has a ghost writer named Rebecca Mansour.

And just like everything else she touches with her name on it, it turns to shit as she continues to spread her hate and violence across this country. She is a fraud and her mask is being exposed as we speak.

OMG!!! "The Whore of Babble-On". I love it! Thank you for the laugh.

Ravin' Raven
07-22-2010, 11:20 AM
What? It should kill you to give me some Nova at least?

I say we pelt-ya with gefilte...thwap!!

(oh and it's the fur that makes folks believe you are of canine ancestry...you wookie you...)

Lady Hefron
07-22-2010, 06:51 PM
By that logic it would be disrespectful to build ANYTHING there as it is disturbing the final resting place of lost lives

LdyJhawk, that is exactly what I'm saying.

Meari
07-22-2010, 07:26 PM
So, let me get this straight..... People are going crazy because there's an Islamic Community Center being built somewhere in Manhattan..... *rolls eyes* Let's all get out our tinfoil hats too.

And leaving the World Trade Center area empty forever is letting the bad guys win...... if they can rebuild Europe after WWII, we can rebuild those darn buildings!

Bean
07-22-2010, 07:42 PM
Just about everything is built on an old graveyard. I don't think you can throw a rock and not hit an old grave of some kind. If we didn't build on grave sites there wouldn't be a NYC, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, etc. Honor the dead by moving forward with our lives, not living in or continually re-living the past.

Selena
07-22-2010, 08:06 PM
Since Palin was evoked, this might bring some light (http://palingates.blogspot.com/2010/07/dangerous-nature-of-sarah-palins-lies.html#disqus_thread)upon this thread. This bitch could give a shit-care-less about NYC or "Ground Zero". As usual, she's poking her nose somewhere where (1) it is not wanted nor needed, (2) again, offers ignorant bitching without any solutions, (3) stoking the fires of her rabid wingnut peebots and (4) her continuing mission to divide this country.


And while you're at it, poke around this site a bit. You might find it quite interesting
just how corrupt this woman truly is. You guys just have no idea.

Ysobelle
07-22-2010, 08:38 PM
Once again: "building a mosque at ground zero" is a deliberately misleading and inflammatory statement. It's an Islamic community center, and it's several blocks away.

surlywench
07-22-2010, 08:59 PM
exactly. but hey, if they told the truth, there'd be nothing to get riled about!

hey...wait....

Selena
07-22-2010, 09:48 PM
exactly. but hey, if they told the truth, there'd be nothing to get riled about!

hey...wait....

Unless it's BOOBIES (http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/22/ground-zero-mosque-religion-terrorism-opinions-columnists-conor-friedersdorf.html)!!

BronxGirl
07-22-2010, 10:03 PM
Hey - New York Dolls is a classy joint! :roll:

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 11:44 PM
Deep Thoughts, by Sarah Palin (INORITE?????!!!!!!!SQUEE!!!!!)

[...]This is a place which is 600 feet from where almost 3,000 people were torn to pieces by Islamic extremists[...]

Since 600 feet is apparently too close, perhaps the esteemed half-governor (or at least her ghostwriter) could edumacate us as to what the appropriate distance is from which someone may be permitted to engage in the free practice of religion without offending the delicate sensibilities of Alaskan facists.

Phoenix McHeit
07-22-2010, 11:44 PM
Hey - New York Dolls is a classy joint! :roll:

Pssst - that's *klassy*. ;-)

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-22-2010, 11:48 PM
Hey - New York Dolls is a classy joint! :roll:

New York Dolls was the first strip club I ever went to. Ah... memories...

It was back when I had a summer job in the Financial District... when I was 16. :-)

I'd have lunch there practically every day. There was a free buffet. :-)

I have a friend who lives a couple of blocks from it. When his wife is around, we refer to it as "the Murray Street tavern". lol.

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-23-2010, 12:04 AM
Oh, and as long as we're running quotes from useless shitstains, here's a good one:


"There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over." - Newt Gingrich

I would provide a counter-argument, but someone on another board has already expressed the winning sentiment beautifully, so I will just quote him here:


"Our respecting religious freedom and property rights, and Saudi Arabia not doing that, certainly is a double standard. His suggestion that the answer to that double standard is to make our country more like theirs, is frightening."

::clappin:

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-23-2010, 12:57 AM
Hey - New York Dolls is a classy joint! :roll:

It actually is... all the strippers, when they give you lap dances, they keep their pinkies up.

Ysobelle
07-23-2010, 03:00 AM
It actually is... all the strippers, when they give you lap dances, they keep their pinkies up.



I'll probably beat you again tomorrow, but I love you so much.

Lady Laurel
07-23-2010, 04:42 PM
Oh, and as long as we're running quotes from useless shitstains, here's a good one:

"There should be no mosque near Ground Zero in New York so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia. The time for double standards that allow Islamists to behave aggressively toward us while they demand our weakness and submission is over." - Newt GingrichI would provide a counter-argument, but someone on another board has already expressed the winning sentiment beautifully, so I will just quote him here:

"Our respecting religious freedom and property rights, and Saudi Arabia not doing that, certainly is a double standard. His suggestion that the answer to that double standard is to make our country more like theirs, is frightening."::clappin:.

I have been to church in Saudi Arabia.... ::ike::

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-23-2010, 04:58 PM
by the way... it's not just two blocks away that's too close.

Staten Island is apparently too close as well: http://gothamist.com/2010/07/22/staten_island_mosque_voted_down.php

And believe me, there's nothing sacred or hallowed about Staten Island, so good luck to you apologists trying to justify this one...


I heard some sound bites on the radio from Staten Island residents expressing why they were in opposition. One of them said something like, "the First commandment says you shall have no other god besides the one true god, so that's why."

Anyone want to take a guess as to why that's really really funny?

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-23-2010, 05:07 PM
More quotes from the geniuses in Staten Island.

* "We just want to leave our neighborhood the way it is - Christian, Catholic."

* "Mosques breed terrorism, I'm sorry."

* "The city has had enough terrorism and everything else. We just don't want to take the chance, and they can't prove to us otherwise."

* "Why is a mosque coming here? [Are there] that many Muslims? It's just everything, and to unravel it, gee wiz, it's gonna take a miracle."

* "To me, they’re too closed. We don’t know them. It’s up to them to show us what and who they are. It’s very frightening."


If you ask me, they sound like they're qualified to be Governor of Alalska.

Drea Beth
07-23-2010, 05:17 PM
More quotes from the geniuses in Staten Island.
[snip]
If you ask me, they sound like they're qualified to be Governor of Alalska.

Isn't the cast from "Jersey Shore" from Staten Island? Maybe Snookie and "The Situation" should move to Alaska and run for office... :unamused:

LdyJhawk
07-23-2010, 05:19 PM
.

I have been to church in Saudi Arabia.... ::ike::

oh lol. OK see here's what bugs me about the "there are no churches in saudi arabia!" well ok..? When the US votes to become a legislated Christian fundamentalist nation, allowing for no other outward religious expression aside from fundamentalist christian then I'd vote that it's a similar concept. But instead, we're supposed to be a free society including Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, FSM beliefs which means we aren't comparable in the debate.

Saudi Arabia = Islam, yo! US = Religion, LOL whatever!

Cyranno DeBoberac
07-27-2010, 01:57 AM
Some more facts, I hope that's okay....

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/07/23/2010-07-23_islam_has_long_history_downtown_why_the_ground_ zero_mosque_belongs_in_lower_manh.html


Islam has long history downtown: Why the 'Ground Zero mosque' belongs in lower Manhattan
By Edward E. Curtis

Rick Lazio, the gubernatorial candidate from Suffolk County, doesn't like it. Sarah Palin, though not exactly a New Yorker, has resoundingly "refudiated" it. More importantly, plenty of ordinary citizens vocally oppose the establishment of a Muslim community center and mosque near the World Trade Center site.

But no matter how offensive their presence may be to some people, Muslims have always been a part of lower Manhattan's past. In fact, Islam in New York began near Ground Zero. From an historical perspective, there could hardly be a better place for a mosque.

One of the first Arab-American enclaves in New York City was located on Washington St. in lower Manhattan - the very area in which the World Trade Center was later built. Founded by Arabic-speaking Christians and Muslims from Ottoman Syria in the 1880s, it was called Little Syria.

[...]

Lower Manhattan is also the final resting place of Muslims and other Africans, often slaves, who were forcibly resettled in New York when it was still New Amsterdam. The African Burial Ground, discovered in 1991, is six blocks away from the proposed Muslim community center. Scholars continue to debate the religious identity of the hundreds buried there, but the fact that some of the dead wore shrouds and were interred with strings of blue beads, frequently used as Islamic talismans, suggests Muslim were among the enslaved people who helped build Manhattan into a bustling city.

[...]

Today, more than half a million Muslims live in New York City, including 10% of all public school children. According to one informed estimate, there are roughly 1,000 Muslim officers in the NYPD.

Their historical birthplace is near Ground Zero. Trying to prevent them from building a community center there denies their stake not only in New York's history but in its future, too.

Ysobelle
08-04-2010, 01:16 AM
I thought this was beautiful.




http://www.mikebloomberg.com/index.cfm?objectid=38F02174-C29C-7CA2-FB24F2BA115AF739

Mike Bloomberg’s Remarks on the Proposed Mosque and Community Center in Lower Manhattan
Aug 03, 2010 | Mikebloomberg.com
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On Tuesday August 3 2010, Mike joined NYC City Council Speaker Christine Quinn and religious leaders from across New York City at an event on Governor's Island. Mike spoke about the importance of religious freedom and the great tradition of tolerance and diversity that has characterized New York City since its founding. "I believe this is as important a test of the separation of church and state as any we may see in our lifetime - and it is critically important that we get it right."
The full text of Mike's remarks as delivered are below:
“We have come here to Governors Island to stand where the earliest settlers first set foot in New Amsterdam, and where the seeds of religious tolerance were first planted. We’ve come here to see the inspiring symbol of liberty that, more than 250 years later, would greet millions of immigrants in the harbor, and we come here to state as strongly as ever – this is the freest City in the world. That’s what makes New York special and different and strong.
“Our doors are open to everyone – everyone with a dream and a willingness to work hard and play by the rules. New York City was built by immigrants, and it is sustained by immigrants – by people from more than a hundred different countries speaking more than two hundred different languages and professing every faith. And whether your parents were born here, or you came yesterday, you are a New Yorker.
“We may not always agree with every one of our neighbors. That’s life and it’s part of living in such a diverse and dense city. But we also recognize that part of being a New Yorker is living with your neighbors in mutual respect and tolerance. It was exactly that spirit of openness and acceptance that was attacked on 9/11.
“On that day, 3,000 people were killed because some murderous fanatics didn’t want us to enjoy the freedom to profess our own faiths, to speak our own minds, to follow our own dreams and to live our own lives.
“Of all our precious freedoms, the most important may be the freedom to worship as we wish. And it is a freedom that, even here in a City that is rooted in Dutch tolerance, was hard-won over many years. In the mid-1650s, the small Jewish community living in Lower Manhattan petitioned Dutch Governor Peter Stuyvesant for the right to build a synagogue – and they were turned down.
“In 1657, when Stuyvesant also prohibited Quakers from holding meetings, a group of non-Quakers in Queens signed the Flushing Remonstrance, a petition in defense of the right of Quakers and others to freely practice their religion. It was perhaps the first formal, political petition for religious freedom in the American colonies – and the organizer was thrown in jail and then banished from New Amsterdam.
“In the 1700s, even as religious freedom took hold in America, Catholics in New York were effectively prohibited from practicing their religion – and priests could be arrested. Largely as a result, the first Catholic parish in New York City was not established until the 1780’s – St. Peter’s on Barclay Street, which still stands just one block north of the World Trade Center site and one block south of the proposed mosque and community center.
“This morning, the City’s Landmark Preservation Commission unanimously voted not to extend landmark status to the building on Park Place where the mosque and community center are planned. The decision was based solely on the fact that there was little architectural significance to the building. But with or without landmark designation, there is nothing in the law that would prevent the owners from opening a mosque within the existing building. The simple fact is this building is private property, and the owners have a right to use the building as a house of worship.
“The government has no right whatsoever to deny that right – and if it were tried, the courts would almost certainly strike it down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question – should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here. This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions, or favor one over another.
“The World Trade Center Site will forever hold a special place in our City, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves – and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans – if we said ‘no’ to a mosque in Lower Manhattan.
“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11 and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values – and play into our enemies’ hands – if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists – and we should not stand for that.
“For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetime – as important a test – and it is critically important that we get it right.
“On September 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked ‘What God do you pray to?’ ‘What beliefs do you hold?’
“The attack was an act of war – and our first responders defended not only our City but also our country and our Constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very Constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights – and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked.
“Of course, it is fair to ask the organizers of the mosque to show some special sensitivity to the situation – and in fact, their plan envisions reaching beyond their walls and building an interfaith community. By doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our City even closer together and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any way consistent with Islam. Muslims are as much a part of our City and our country as the people of any faith and they are as welcome to worship in Lower Manhattan as any other group. In fact, they have been worshipping at the site for the better part of a year, as is their right.
“The local community board in Lower Manhattan voted overwhelming to support the proposal and if it moves forward, I expect the community center and mosque will add to the life and vitality of the neighborhood and the entire City.
“Political controversies come and go, but our values and our traditions endure – and there is no neighborhood in this City that is off limits to God’s love and mercy, as the religious leaders here with us today can attest.”

Phoenix McHeit
08-04-2010, 07:31 AM
...Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question – should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here. This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions, or favor one over another....


*applause*


Thanks for finding this, Nik. It's a beautiful speech.

Buxom Wench
08-04-2010, 09:32 AM
Yes. That is a beautiful speech.

I just heard on the news, that the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church (http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/) that was buried under the falling of the second tower, is meeting obstacle upon obstacle about trying to rebuild.

Why is an Islamic center getting the go ahead when a church that was there before 9/11 is having obstacles about rebuilding?

I'm just curious.

The 6th Rogue
08-04-2010, 10:43 AM
Um...so we can blow it up right after they finish building it? Sort of a Tit for Tat thing?

Ravin' Raven
08-04-2010, 10:57 AM
Yes. That is a beautiful speech.

I just heard on the news, that the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church (http://www.stnicholasnyc.com/) that was buried under the falling of the second tower, is meeting obstacle upon obstacle about trying to rebuild.

Why is an Islamic center getting the go ahead when a church that was there before 9/11 is having obstacles about rebuilding?

I'm just curious.

This is from a section of the website above.

"The story of the tiny St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and its efforts to rebuild after the collapse of the World Trade Center is one of well-intentioned promises that led to endless negotiations, design disputes, delays and mounting costs. It is, in other words, a microcosm of the seven-year, $16 billion, problem-plagued effort to reconstruct the entire trade center site."

In other words this does not sound like an issue with this church because it IS a church. It's an issue because of built up overwrought bureaucracy that is slowing everything down and making some of these projects too difficult and too costly.

I don't hear people screaming about the poor families who lost bagel shops and dry cleaners and grocery stores that are bankrupt and out of their life's work and life savings who don't have congregations and loud voices to be heard above the ever present keening and beating of breasts that are going on for such a small percentage of the impacted population of this area. When Sal Moskowitz (the Manhattan version of Joe the plumber) gets newspaper articles and sound bites devoted to his lost family business that his great grand dad emigrated from Israel to build and that has supported his family for three generations and served thousands of members of the community by providing groceries to the little old ladies in the walk ups, then I will start thinking our jaded cynical society really CARES about the people and not the drama and getting their soundbite on mass media.

Selena
08-04-2010, 11:21 AM
It's an issue because of built up overwrought bureaucracy that is slowing everything down and making some of these projects too difficult and too costly.

That says it all right there.

Let's leave the religious aspect out of it and what do you have left?

Red tape.

Then you have these media drama whores (Palin and her ilk -- barf) whipping their rabid fan base into a frothing frenzy and what you see is the result; dirty fighting based on lies and deceit.

The 6th Rogue
08-04-2010, 04:09 PM
I say we designate one whole block to religion and ask each legit religion (that'd leave out Scientology and a few other cults) to build a structure on a designated section of that block. Put them all shoulder to shoulder just to show the rest of the world we have a place for it.

Ravin' Raven
08-04-2010, 04:15 PM
I say we designate one whole block to religion and ask each legit religion (that'd leave out Scientology and a few other cults) to build a structure on a designated section of that block. Put them all shoulder to shoulder just to show the rest of the world we have a place for it.

6th...how dare you bring logic and compassion and tolerance into this argument. Sheesh young man what am I gonna do with you...

The 6th Rogue
08-04-2010, 04:39 PM
WOOHOO!!! Beatings and discipline! YAY! :)

Phoenix McHeit
08-04-2010, 04:42 PM
WOOHOO!!! Beatings and discipline! YAY! :)

Nah, you're too eager.
:snicker:

The 6th Rogue
08-04-2010, 04:45 PM
...but I brought the 5 gallon size whip cream and the gummi bears! (pout)

Phoenix McHeit
08-04-2010, 04:50 PM
...but I brought the 5 gallon size whip cream and the gummi bears! (pout)

Alright young man, no more Katy Perry videos for you! Go to my room!

Ravin' Raven
08-04-2010, 06:48 PM
...but I brought the 5 gallon size whip cream and the gummi bears! (pout)

You know I prefer chocolate pudding.

Ronnoms that's your new nickname. ::ike::

MillieWylde
08-04-2010, 08:47 PM
I say we ... ask each legit religion ... *snip*


CRIPES... can you imagine who all would be fighting over THAT one? All the arguing and protesting and counter-protesting that would initiate?? ::kooky::

The 6th Rogue
08-06-2010, 10:04 AM
@Ravin' - LOLZ! I approve.

@Millie - Drat, you've figured out my secret evil plan. That was the whole idea. ;)

Phoenix McHeit
08-06-2010, 10:53 AM
And I get no love. I see how it is.

I hate being the last post on a page. *snicker* ;-)

The 6th Rogue
08-09-2010, 12:18 PM
I shall save you from that!

Tink
08-12-2010, 08:25 PM
New York Dolls was the first strip club I ever went to. Ah... memories...

It was back when I had a summer job in the Financial District... when I was 16. :-)

I'd have lunch there practically every day. There was a free buffet. :-)

I have a friend who lives a couple of blocks from it. When his wife is around, we refer to it as "the Murray Street tavern". lol.

Bob, my dad's camera store was right next to NY Dolls for YEARS!! I bet we passed each other on the street many times... never knowing we'd become friends so many moons later. Kismet. ::ike::

Cyranno DeBoberac
08-14-2010, 12:44 PM
Bob, my dad's camera store was right next to NY Dolls for YEARS!! I bet we passed each other on the street many times... never knowing we'd become friends so many moons later. Kismet. ::ike::

That's pretty funny.


And kinda depressing... I totally missed my chance. ;-)

Cyranno DeBoberac
08-17-2010, 01:11 PM
As seen on twitter:


In fairness, we've been building "ground zeros" near Iraqi mosques since March 2003.

:D

Selena
08-20-2010, 09:05 PM
My guy sent this to me (http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201008200005) earlier today. It's very topical to this thread. Take it with a salt mine if you dare... it comes from the 'fair and balanced' Fox.

Funny... why should anyone's rights be told to step aside? People of all faiths - and none- died that day.

I'd be willing to bet this person would be completely okay if the Burlington factory was torn down and a traditional christian-style (pick your splinter) church (http://www.flickr.com/photos/e_phots/2227063558/) was built in it's place.

Screw that.

You know what... I'm an atheist.

I say NO ONE gets to have any place of worship! ANYWHERE in Manhattan! It's TOO close to GROUND ZEROOOOO. OH NOESSSS!

Mistress Flare
08-20-2010, 10:56 PM
I worked as a NYPD dispatcher that day... I heard everyone scream with terror, then DEAD silence, male, female, all languages...all ages ...all faiths..or some with none.... it was horrible and something I can't still fully get over it!

The fact we are getting agrravated over what they are doing is probably making the terrorist happy, screw them!

We are Americans, we might hurt, but we are strong, and we can get over/past what ever they dish at us! Might take time, but we can do it!

Never Forget! Sept.11 is 3 weeks away! :rip:

Hallertauer
08-21-2010, 09:24 AM
There has to be hundreds if not thousands of abandoned building in NYC so why must they build it in this one particular building?

Selena
08-21-2010, 09:26 AM
There has to be hundreds if not thousands of abandoned building in NYC so why must they build it in this one particular building?


What do you propose should go there?

Meari
08-21-2010, 09:39 AM
There has to be hundreds if not thousands of abandoned building in NYC so why must they build it in this one particular building?

Because (from what I understand) that neighborhood is predominantly Muslim.

Selena
08-21-2010, 09:45 AM
Something else that's topical (http://daryllang.com/blog/4421)I found on Fark yesterday...

And Sarah Palin and her ghostwriter need to shut the fuck up. I say, unless you actually live or work in NYC... YOU HAVE NO SAY SO IN THE FUCKIN' MATTER!

Selena
08-21-2010, 10:10 AM
Oh, and by the way, the next time someone says this is a christian nation and founded on christian values only?

Yeah, about that... show them this. (http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/documents/hebrew/reply.html)
(heads up, Yso!)

http://www.tourosynagogue.org/overview.asp

BronxGirl
08-21-2010, 10:43 AM
And Sarah Palin and her ghostwriter need to shut the fuck up. I say, unless you actually live or work in NYC... YOU HAVE NO SAY SO IN THE FUCKIN' MATTER!

Fucking A!

I find it amusing that the people screaming the loudest are the first to complain about the 'elitists' in New York saying anything about what they do.

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it yet, but there is a mosque at the Pentagon.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/08/06/mosque-pentagon/

Ysobelle
08-21-2010, 12:31 PM
Oh, and by the way, the next time someone says this is a christian nation and founded on christian values only?

Yeah, about that... show them this. (http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/documents/hebrew/reply.html)
(heads up, Yso!)

http://www.tourosynagogue.org/overview.asp



Oh, my G-d-- how have I never read that letter?

I absolutely love the point Washington reinforces about the difference between religious freedom and religious tolerance:


The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.

Lady Anisette
08-21-2010, 12:49 PM
Something else that's topical (http://daryllang.com/blog/4421)I found on Fark yesterday...

And Sarah Palin and her ghostwriter need to shut the fuck up. I say, unless you actually live or work in NYC... YOU HAVE NO SAY SO IN THE FUCKIN' MATTER!

As a New Yorker, I have to say that I agree with this. So many of the loudest (and I am talking people I know and those I hear not politicians) protesting against this community center have never even been to ground zero. I played there. I worked there. I lost friends there. The Towers were are big part of my childhood. To me, putting a muslim center in downtown isn't an offense. It is a big fuck you to the peoples who say the US is intolerant and evil.

What I find offensive is that more people aren't angry about the fact that it has been nearly 10 years and it is still a big hole in the ground. A community can come up with the monies to build a 100 million dollar center (regardless of faith) and yet the city and state can't/won't doing anything to the site itself. That should be the ultimate focus of everyone. Not what is happening several blocks away, but what is NOT happening at the actual site.

Ysobelle
08-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Someone-- and dammit if I can't remember who-- said that the amount of outrage expressed is directly proportional to the expressee's distance from New York.

And Bob, wasn't it you who said what everyone else calls Ground Zero, y'all call Lower Manhattan?

Gemdrite
08-21-2010, 01:51 PM
Something else that's topical (http://daryllang.com/blog/4421)I found on Fark yesterday...

And Sarah Palin and her ghostwriter need to shut the fuck up. I say, unless you actually live or work in NYC... YOU HAVE NO SAY SO IN THE FUCKIN' MATTER!
I'd have to disagree with that one. There are people who died on 9/11 who had family that live in places other than NYC. They have just as much right to protest as those families that do live in NYC. Regardless of whether you think they are stupid for it or not doesn't matter. They still have the right.

Ysobelle
08-21-2010, 01:54 PM
I think the point Selena was making was that people who don't actually live and work there shouldn't get to decide-- and scream and rant and protest about-- what gets built in the neighbourhood.

And let's be honest-- the center gets built, and six months later, people in Iowa have forgotten all about it.

Lady Anisette
08-21-2010, 02:12 PM
Yes, individuals from outside NYC lost friends and family that day. However, a great deal of the noise is coming from people that have/had no actual connection to the site or the events of that day. Many of the victims' families are either keeping their opinions to themselves or are not being overly loud about their dissatisfaction. Some even support the center.

There are many who are using this controversy to fan the flames of hatred. Hatred for a faith, hatred for a culture, hatred for a race. It won't stop there. Hatred spreads like a weed. Eventually it will move on to another faith, culture, race. And then another. May I remind everyone that it took only a generation to create the Nazi regime. They started off with dissent about the economy (Germany was in the middle of a very bad recession) and then became an attack on one group and then another. It continued until 6+ million people ~ Jews and non Jews ~ were annihilated. And if you don't like analogy, tough. There is already too much violence happening against non-white, non-christrian races. Read the papers.

Ysobelle
08-21-2010, 02:23 PM
Indeed. One of the reasons I'm so adamant about this is because seventy years ago, it was me.

Gemdrite
08-21-2010, 02:32 PM
Indeed. One of the reasons I'm so adamant about this is because seventy years ago, it was me.
Wow, you look good for 70! :smile:

And I agree that people who don't have any association with 9/11 other than being an American really shouldn't be worried about what happens in NYC. However, the entire debate about this mosque is that it's being built so close to that site, and I think that people who *do* have an association with 9/11 have every right to make their opinions known about whether it should be there or not. Just because they don't live in NYC doesn't mean it doesn't have any effect on them. Human emotions don't know city boundaries.

Ysobelle
08-21-2010, 02:35 PM
I should explain: Jews are taught-- at least in my tradition, which is Reform-- that whatever happens or has happened to one of us has happened to us all. This is why, when you hear Jews speak of the Shoah, we don't say "they," we say, "we."

Gemdrite
08-21-2010, 02:37 PM
I should explain: Jews are taught-- at least in my tradition, which is Reform-- that whatever happens or has happened to one of us has happened to us all. This is why, when you hear Jews speak of the Shoah, we don't say "they," we say, "we."
I knew what you meant, I was just teasing, that's all.

Ysobelle
08-21-2010, 02:54 PM
I knew what you meant, I was just teasing, that's all.



Oh, I know. But not everyone does; I should've explained to begin with.

And now I'm trying to figure out if I'd be 70, or 70 plus my age? And that's just getting weird.



Anyway, I don't think it's a matter of anyone saying no one can have an opinion on the project. It's this sense of entitlement people seem to have: that if they don't like the center being built, they should be able to stop it. That their outrage and offense is enough to stop this place in its tracks: a place they'll never see, never have to deal with, at an address they couldn't pick out on a map.

I don't think there are many people on this planet who weren't affected by 9/11. It took me a long time to realise that I, here in Philly, am just as much a victim as anyone else, though in a different way. It was an attack on my country, on my lifestyle, on my neighbours, on me. But I don't believe that I can use my grief and fear as a cudgel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081906407.html) to get everyone else to cater to me. We were all affected in some degree. But we all have to move forward and be rational about it. We have to take a long view.

What kind of message does it send to young Muslims-- and young Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, etc.-- that for the actions of a few extremists, we're going to hate all of them, forever? A friend of mine had to explain to a classroom full of Bangladeshi Muslim children why the US seems to hate and distrust them so. How is that going to make our world better, safer, easier?

Gemdrite
08-21-2010, 03:08 PM
Oh, I know. But not everyone does; I should've explained to begin with.

And now I'm trying to figure out if I'd be 70, or 70 plus my age? And that's just getting weird.



Anyway, I don't think it's a matter of anyone saying no one can have an opinion on the project. It's this sense of entitlement people seem to have: that if they don't like the center being built, they should be able to stop it. That their outrage and offense is enough to stop this place in its tracks: a place they'll never see, never have to deal with, at an address they couldn't pick out on a map.

I don't think there are many people on this planet who weren't affected by 9/11. It took me a long time to realise that I, here in Philly, am just as much a victim as anyone else, though in a different way. It was an attack on my country, on my lifestyle, on my neighbours, on me. But I don't believe that I can use my grief and fear as a cudgel (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/19/AR2010081906407.html) to get everyone else to cater to me. We were all affected in some degree. But we all have to move forward and be rational about it. We have to take a long view.

What kind of message does it send to young Muslims-- and young Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Atheists, Buddhists, Christians, etc.-- that for the actions of a few extremists, we're going to hate all of them, forever? A friend of mine had to explain to a classroom full of Bangladeshi Muslim children why the US seems to hate and distrust them so. How is that going to make our world better, safer, easier?
Hehe, I was going to add your age to 70 originally, but I'm really bad at guessing ages and didn't want to unintentionally offend you, lol. If I'm going to offend someone, I wanna do it on purpose! :smile:

As for the rest of your post, I whole-heartedly agree. I guess Selena's statement just rubbed me the wrong way, in that I think everybody associated with 9/11 should get a say in what happens. Does that mean that what they want to happen is what should happen? No, of course not. But that doesn't mean that their opinions should be ignored or discounted. And that's what I felt was being said. Selena, if I'm wrong, I wholeheartedly apologize. I could have misread it. I should know better than to post first thing in the morning, before my brain is all the way turned on. ;-)

Selena
08-21-2010, 03:50 PM
As for the rest of your post, I whole-heartedly agree. I guess Selena's statement just rubbed me the wrong way, in that I think everybody associated with 9/11 should get a say in what happens. Does that mean that what they want to happen is what should happen? No, of course not. But that doesn't mean that their opinions should be ignored or discounted. And that's what I felt was being said. Selena, if I'm wrong, I wholeheartedly apologize. I could have misread it. I should know better than to post first thing in the morning, before my brain is all the way turned on. ;-)

Oooh, it's been a while since we've butted heads! ;-)

Seriously though... everyone's entitled to an opinion, of course, on the matter. Yso has explained my point very well actually so I don't have too much to add. I would like to say this, though: it's the over the top bullshit of venomous fear that's being thrown around like beads during Mardi Gras... And I'm sick of it. I'm sick to death of these asshats who have a public platform who have no business with furthering the hate. Opinions are one thing, but when you start to gather those attack dogs who are already looking for a fight... well, this sets my teeth on edge.

Sarah Palin (R-Facebook) doesn't give a flying fuck about NYC. She's only about spewing hatred with lies and dividing this country. If she really gave a shit, she would put her money where her mouth is and actually DO something productive rather than hiding behind her hysterical internet rants and intentional divisive terminology.

Gemdrite
08-21-2010, 04:13 PM
Oooh, it's been a while since we've butted heads! ;-)

Seriously though... everyone's entitled to an opinion, of course, on the matter. Yso has explained my point very well actually so I don't have too much to add. I would like to say this, though: it's the over the top bullshit of venomous fear that's being thrown around like beads during Mardi Gras... And I'm sick of it. I'm sick to death of these asshats who have a public platform who have no business with furthering the hate. Opinions are one thing, but when you start to gather those attack dogs who are already looking for a fight... well, this sets my teeth on edge.

Sarah Palin (R-Facebook) doesn't give a flying fuck about NYC. She's only about spewing hatred with lies and dividing this country. If she really gave a shit, she would put her money where her mouth is and actually DO something productive rather than hiding behind her hysterical internet rants and intentional divisive terminology.

Well damn, I think this is the most peaceful discussion we've ever disagreed on! :smile: I also agree that the venemous fear needs to end, though I'm not nearly as vehement in my hatred of Sarah Palin as you, lol. And since I obviously misunderstood your original statement, and since it has been cleared up, I'm bowing back out of this discussion. The only reason I was even on the boards so soon after waking up was cause I'm excited about the Geo Georgie project I posted about in another thread and wanted to see who responded, lol.

Bean
08-21-2010, 04:17 PM
It's an election year so fearmongering and hatred are in style..... it's how you get your candidate elected. What was the line from An American President? "Bob Rumsfeld isn't interested in solving problems, he's only interested in telling you what's wrong with it and who's to blame for it. That's how you win elections."

Cyranno DeBoberac
08-26-2010, 02:39 AM
Apparently, just being a Muslim driving a cab in Manhattan is a slap in the face to the 9/11 families.

That would explain this guy taking it upon himself to ask his cabbie if he is Muslim and then saying "Assalamu alaikum, Consider this a checkpoint" and stabbing him when he said he was.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/cabbie-attacked/



Stay classy San Diego!

LdyJhawk
08-26-2010, 02:31 PM
But Bob! He just wanted to make sure those Muslims couldn't hurt more people just because they're a different faith follower! God! This is America and we have to make sure those dirty violent judgmental people learn by whatever means necessary that we are peaceful freedom loving people!

Besides, no American would EVER hurt someone for being a different faith right? Hmph...

Azura
08-26-2010, 07:50 PM
Apparently, just being a Muslim driving a cab in Manhattan is a slap in the face to the 9/11 families.

That would explain this guy taking it upon himself to ask his cabbie if he is Muslim and then saying "Assalamu alaikum, Consider this a checkpoint" and stabbing him when he said he was.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/cabbie-attacked/



Stay classy San Diego!

Ho. Lee. Shit.

Cyranno DeBoberac
08-26-2010, 09:35 PM
but hey, you know how that old saying goes.... you can't make an omlette without stabbing a muslim cabbie in the neck!

Mistress Morigianna
08-26-2010, 11:43 PM
do i have this right? to follow the theory that if radical people caliming to be a fraction of a particulair religion do something then we must blaim all people of that religion and not ever let them build houses of worship near the site of the (horrible thing) that happened?

so lets look at WACO-
"David Koresh was a Davidian. The Branch Davidians are a sect (in the sense of "splinter group") of the Seventh-Day Adventists movement. Theologically, the various Davidian groups, of which Branch Davidians is best known, are considered cults of Christianity. "

So we can't have any 7th day Adventist or Christian Churches in Texas.....?????



Has anyone counted how many churches there are in salem?.......

Mistress Morigianna
08-26-2010, 11:53 PM
also another thing (stepping on the soapbox)
- can we all agree to call it a 10 yr day of remembrance or memorial? I get irritated at the use of "anniversary". To me an anniversary is a celebration.

Isabelle Warwicke
08-27-2010, 01:46 AM
also another thing (stepping on the soapbox)
- can we all agree to call it a 10 yr day of remembrance or memorial? I get irritated at the use of "anniversary". To me an anniversary is a celebration.

I call it Patriot Day. Or NineEleven.

The 6th Rogue
08-27-2010, 12:27 PM
When it comes to a religion, sect or culture you are your brother's keeper. If you let the ugly fester then it's your fault as much as theirs.

Ysobelle
08-27-2010, 02:44 PM
When it comes to a religion, sect or culture you are your brother's keeper. If you let the ugly fester then it's your fault as much as theirs.



Unfortunately, that's exactly how we get assholes like Fred Phelps.

The 6th Rogue
08-30-2010, 10:08 PM
(shrug) Not every mushroom is magical.

Thistle
08-31-2010, 05:11 PM
From The Onion http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

mehlen
08-31-2010, 10:08 PM
Ground Zero mosque. You know...you have to be a Christian to be a member of the Ku Klux Klan. Does that make all white Christians clansmen? I really don't think so. There was radical and crazy people that killed thousands that day. They happened to claim to be Muslim. All religions (not just Muslim and Christians) have their psycho, radicals. This neither represents the majority, nor even a large minority. The fact that their actions are loud, inflamatory, and shocking only means they had money and training. So now do I suspect every person following a spiritual pathway that happens to have money? I don't think so. So who am I supposed to blame? Who am I supposed to hate? Who am I supposed to fear? What should I do to protect myself and what should my government do to protect me?

Hmmmm...I should fear ignorance and intolerance because these individuals incite the same pathological hate and fear that the terrorists shared with us on the date of 9/11. I should tell my government to enforce existing immigration laws and leave my civil liberties alone. I blame those who continue to spread hate some 9 years later instead of helping the victims of other's hate and intolerance. Instead of hate, I should understand that in spreading hate I am allowing the terrorists to truely win...for they have turned me against my brother if I have learned to hate him.

All of us lost that day. It didn't matter if we were Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, Native American, or other faith.

Blessings sisters.
Mary

Cyranno DeBoberac
08-31-2010, 10:14 PM
From The Onion http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

What's profoundly sad is that I've had discussions on other forums with people who sound exactly like that guy.

When satire is indistinguishable from reality, that's when you know that shit is fucked up.

Selena
09-01-2010, 09:41 AM
What's profoundly sad is that I've had discussions on other forums with people who sound exactly like that guy.

When satire is indistinguishable from reality, that's when you know that shit is fucked up.


No kidding. You got that right 110%.

I know people like this and it frustrates me to no end --
3674

Thistle
09-01-2010, 11:23 AM
When satire is indistinguishable from reality, that's when you know that shit is fucked up.

Drat! Can only clicky the reputation button once. Well said!

Phoenix McHeit
09-01-2010, 11:50 AM
I think this phrasing was my favorite part:

"Or worse, a rape camp. That's right: For reasons I am content being totally unable to articulate, I am choosing to associate Muslims with rape camps."

jack spratt
09-05-2010, 07:12 AM
I say let them build it. then we blow it up. remember people these guys even the ones who are extremists will still cover for the extremists.

Ysobelle
09-05-2010, 10:24 AM
I say let them build it. then we blow it up. remember people these guys even the ones who are extremists will still cover for the extremists.

Wow. Just...wow.

While we're at it, why don't we just kill all the Jews? One of them's gonna cheat you, so you might as well get rid of all of them. Or the blacks. They're just all gonna steal your shit. Asians? Eventually, one of them's going to hit you while you're driving-- might as well clean them all out.

Anyone else?

AnnaFaerie
09-05-2010, 11:31 AM
I say let them build it. then we blow it up. remember people these guys even the ones who are extremists will still cover for the extremists.

Hate-mongering much?

Selena
09-05-2010, 11:47 AM
Don't feed the trolls, you guys.

It just goes to their chins.

Selena
09-05-2010, 11:50 AM
Biker, is that you?

Don't be a smart-ass douche with these things if we don't know who you are....

No, really.

jack spratt
09-05-2010, 12:08 PM
Wow yes its me, Im back.

yso, no jew has ever attacked my country in such a way, nor the asians, 9although my father was killed in Vietnam, I still harbor no hate towards them) nor the blacks. Remember the X`to be that I was married to for 12 years was palestinian. I know what some of their thoughts are damn near before them have them.

You remember who I am, and how I am. not much has changed in my opinionis abouts anything and everything. I 'll let you know my thoughts and I dont care if it gets someone's knickers in a twist either.

Isabelle Warwicke
09-05-2010, 07:59 PM
Biker, is that you?

Don't be a smart-ass douche with these things if we don't know who you are....

No, really.

I. love. you. LOVE <3

Bean
09-05-2010, 08:04 PM
Would Oklahoma City have opposed Okla21?Updated 10h 23m ago | Comments 237 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-09-01-jones03_ST_N.htm#uslPageReturn)| Recommend 10 (http://javascript<b></b>:void('Recommend'))E-mail (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-09-01-jones03_ST_N.htm#) | Save (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-09-01-jones03_ST_N.htm#) | Print (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-09-01-jones03_ST_N.htm#) | http://images.usatoday.com/marketing/_images/rssbox.gif (http://asp.usatoday.com/marketing/rss/rsstrans.aspx?ssts=news%7Copinion%7Cforum)

http://i.usatoday.net/news/opinion/_photos/2010/09/05/oklacityx.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:;)http://i.usatoday.net/_common/_images/clear.gifhttp://i.usatoday.net/_common/_images/_inside/enlarge.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:;) Enlarge (http://javascript<b></b>:;)By David Longstreath, APhttp://i.usatoday.net/_common/_images/clear.gifThe shattered Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City, in this file photo shot April 19, 1995.

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By Serene Jones
Rancor surrounding the proposed Park51 community center in New York City is a painful indication of how little progress America has made in healing the national wound created on Sept. 11, 2001 (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Events+and+Awards/September+11,+2001+attacks).
Immediately following these attacks, many of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims castigated the terrorists responsible. However, nearly a decade later, not only are many Americans unable or unwilling to recall this, but according to a recent Pew study, a growing number of U.S. citizens now believe — erroneously and prejudicially — that President Obama is himself a Muslim. More harmful than the ignorance behind these mistaken beliefs is that they curtail the ability of faith communities to offer much-needed guidance and healing.
I recently moved to New York but consider myself an Oklahoman. In fact, I have family members who were wounded, and friends killed, in the 1995 bombings of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/Places,+Geography/States,+Territories,+Provinces,+Islands/U.S.+States/Oklahoma) City. So I know first-hand that when a community is torn apart by catastrophic violence, it is natural to hunker down and to turn away from whatever is perceived as different or threatening. It is even worse when violence appears tied to religion. But this response, when it leads to open attacks on our national ideals of freedom of religion, is not justified no matter how much we might understand the fear that can motivate it. This is as true for downtown Oklahoma City as it is for downtown New York City.
Imagine we are back in 2004, nine years after Timothy McVeigh (http://content.usatoday.com/topics/topic/People/Notorious/Timothy+McVeigh) perpetrated what at the time was the worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil. Let's extend the analogy, too, and pretend that angry misunderstandings about McVeigh's Christian beliefs have metastasized into animosity toward anyone who professes Christianity, and even toward those who just "seem like" Christians. As the trauma of McVeigh's bombing lingers in people's hearts and minds, blatant slurs about Christians are made in the news media by elected officials and by religious leaders. Christianity, we are told, is a violent religion at its core, doing more harm than good.
Now, push this upside-down scenario one more step. Imagine the Christian churches in Oklahoma City are working hard to counter this "anti-Christian" attitude, and one particularly progressive group decides what's needed is a new youth and community center. Called Okla21, it is envisioned as an interfaith harbor in the heart of Oklahoma City. By offering positive alternatives, the hope is disaffected Christian youth like McVeigh might be reached before they are radicalized, and other terrorist attacks will be prevented.

The idea of a Christian community center is not greeted warmly, however; angry citizens form protest groups and denounce it as a "monument to terrorism." They insist Okla21 is really a church, and they do not want Christians anywhere near the hallowed ground where the Murrah Federal Building stood. Stung, the sponsors of Okla21 try to engage in dialogue, but the wounds they intended to heal begin to fester instead.
If this cautionary tale seems silly, it's only because it is nearly impossible to imagine public "anti-Christian" sentiment could ever happen anywhere in the United States. Yet, when the same scenario plays out in reality, with full-throated hate directed by some toward Muslims and a proposed Islamic community center in Manhattan, it is sanctioned by an alarming number of Americans.
As a proud Oklahoman, I'm relieved that such prejudice directed toward all Christians never materialized, of course. We knew better than to blame all Christians for the crazed act of one. Perhaps that same Okie spirit will find its way to lower Manhattan.
The Rev. Dr. Serene Jones is the 16th president of New York City's Union Theological Seminary, an independent, multi-denominational seminary founded in 1836.

Bean
09-05-2010, 08:05 PM
Sorry about the funky previous layout, but I couldn't get the url to copy and paste. Very interesting OP/ED piece on USAToday.com

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-05-2010, 10:39 PM
yso, no jew has ever attacked my country in such a way, nor the asians

*cough*Pearl Harbor*cough*

That's all the Purina Troll Chow you'll get from me though....

jack spratt
09-05-2010, 10:57 PM
AHH, but Bob you see that there was a war going on at the time, we hadnt been involved yet, but were percieved as a threat.

and when did you become such a liberal? is this a touchy feely Dont say anything that may offend someone place now?

::runfore:

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-05-2010, 11:06 PM
AHH, but Bob you see that there was a war going on at the time, we hadnt been involved yet, but were percieved as a threat.

Don't strain your back moving those goalposts.



and when did you become such a liberal?

I don't subscribe to any particular political philosophy; I'm just anti-douchebag.

These days (more like years), that happens to align me with the liberals more often than not, that's all.

When did you become an apologist for Imperial Japan?



is this a touchy feely Dont say anything that may offend someone place now?

::runfore:

No, this is the same place that it's always been. A say whatever you want, but prepare to be called on it when you say fucked-up ignorant shit place.

jack spratt
09-05-2010, 11:18 PM
not a apologist for Japan. they realized they screwed up a few minutes after Pearl Harbor.

Cant remember which Japanese admiral said it, ( i've had 3-4 hours sleep since Friday) (and not for good reasons either) but went something like" I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant" or something to that effect.

Call me on whatever, I've still got big boy pants on. I may be wrong on things, I frequently am, just my thoughts on that.

LdyJhawk
09-05-2010, 11:25 PM
not a apologist for Japan. they realized they screwed up a few minutes after Pearl Harbor.

Cant remember which Japanese admiral said it, ( i've had 3-4 hours sleep since Friday) (and not for good reasons either) but went something like" I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant" or something to that effect.

Call me on whatever, I've still got big boy pants on. I may be wrong on things, I frequently am, just my thoughts on that.

At least you somehow managed to lump an entire faith community together in the same ignorant way you lumped together all asians, all black people and all jews.

You're just a great big ball of tolerance and sunshine, aren't you?

jack spratt
09-05-2010, 11:35 PM
At least you somehow managed to lump an entire faith community together in the same ignorant way you lumped together all asians, all black people and all jews.

You're just a great big ball of tolerance and sunshine, aren't you?


you dont remember me do you?? and you have the audacity to call me ignorant. the only thing Ive called anyone here since I came back is Bob and I asked him when he became liberal.

I'm very tolerant of a lot of things. just when my country gets attacked and we still havent finished the job over there, my brothers/sisters in arms are still getting killed, but some junkwad who is supported by non-extremists, can do what he wants doenst care who the innocent are who get killed?

go ahead say something about the milllions affected in Hiroshma and Nagasaki. the muslims`wont stop. why should I be tolerant of a religous group who isnt tolerant of me?


be fore warned, we will be attacked severely again. its a matter of time.

we need to take lesson from people like General Black jack Pershing

pardon the scattered thoughts and ramblings.

Meari
09-05-2010, 11:49 PM
be fore warned, we will be attacked severely again. its a matter of time.

We have been attacked... Our civil rights have been attacked. The religious tolerance that this country was founded on has been attacked.

But saying that all Islamic people want to blow up the US is like saying that every Christian wants to protest military funerals.

LdyJhawk
09-06-2010, 01:03 AM
you dont remember me do you?? and you have the audacity to call me ignorant. the only thing Ive called anyone here since I came back is Bob and I asked him when he became liberal.

I'm very tolerant of a lot of things. just when my country gets attacked and we still havent finished the job over there, my brothers/sisters in arms are still getting killed, but some junkwad who is supported by non-extremists, can do what he wants doenst care who the innocent are who get killed?

go ahead say something about the milllions affected in Hiroshma and Nagasaki. the muslims`wont stop. why should I be tolerant of a religous group who isnt tolerant of me?


be fore warned, we will be attacked severely again. its a matter of time.

we need to take lesson from people like General Black jack Pershing

pardon the scattered thoughts and ramblings.

because of the 1.67 billion estimated muslims on this planet, not even 5% are "terrorists" and if you can judge an entire faith by the actions of a few radical morons you actually DO fall under ignorant?

I mean, before I was just calling your wording ignorant but if the shoe fits, cinderella...

Ysobelle
09-06-2010, 04:33 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/05/opinion/05kristof.html?_r=2&src=me&ref=general

September 4, 2010
America’s History of Fear
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

A radio interviewer asked me the other day if I thought bigotry was the only reason why someone might oppose the Islamic center in Lower Manhattan. No, I don’t. Most of the opponents aren’t bigots but well-meaning worriers — and during earlier waves of intolerance in American history, it was just the same.

Screeds against Catholics from the 19th century sounded just like the invective today against the Not-at-Ground-Zero Mosque. The starting point isn’t hatred but fear: an alarm among patriots that newcomers don’t share their values, don’t believe in democracy, and may harm innocent Americans.

Followers of these movements against Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese and other immigrants were mostly decent, well-meaning people trying to protect their country. But they were manipulated by demagogues playing upon their fears — the 19th- and 20th-century equivalents of Glenn Beck.

Most Americans stayed on the sidelines during these spasms of bigotry, and only a small number of hoodlums killed or tormented Catholics, Mormons or others. But the assaults were possible because so many middle-of-the-road Americans were ambivalent.

Suspicion of outsiders, of people who behave or worship differently, may be an ingrained element of the human condition, a survival instinct from our cave-man days. But we should also recognize that historically this distrust has led us to burn witches, intern Japanese-Americans, and turn away Jewish refugees from the Holocaust.

Perhaps the closest parallel to today’s hysteria about Islam is the 19th-century fear spread by the Know Nothing movement about “the Catholic menace.” One book warned that Catholicism was “the primary source” of all of America’s misfortunes, and there were whispering campaigns that presidents including Martin Van Buren and William McKinley were secretly working with the pope. Does that sound familiar?

Critics warned that the pope was plotting to snatch the Mississippi Valley and secretly conspiring to overthrow American democracy. “Rome looks with wistful eye to domination of this broad land, a magnificent seat for a sovereign pontiff,” one writer cautioned.

Historically, unreal suspicions were sometimes rooted in genuine and significant differences. Many new Catholic immigrants lacked experience in democracy. Mormons were engaged in polygamy. And today some extremist Muslims do plot to blow up planes, and Islam has real problems to work out about the rights of women. The pattern has been for demagogues to take real abuses and exaggerate them, portraying, for example, the most venal wing of the Catholic Church as representative of all Catholicism — just as fundamentalist Wahabis today are caricatured as more representative of Islam than the incomparably more numerous moderate Muslims of Indonesia (who have elected a woman as president before Americans have).

In the 19th century, fears were stoked by books written by people who supposedly had “escaped” Catholicism. These books luridly recounted orgies between priests and nuns, girls kidnapped and held in secret dungeons, and networks of tunnels at convents to allow priests to rape nuns. One woman claiming to have been a priest’s sex slave wrote a “memoir” asserting that Catholics killed boys and ground them into sausage for sale.

These kinds of stories inflamed a mob of patriots in 1834 to attack an Ursuline convent outside Boston and burn it down.

Similar suspicions have targeted just about every other kind of immigrant. During World War I, rumors spread that German-Americans were poisoning food, and Theodore Roosevelt warned that “Germanized socialists” were “more mischievous than bubonic plague.”

Anti-Semitic screeds regularly warned that Jews were plotting to destroy the United States in one way or another. A 1940 survey found that 17 percent of Americans considered Jews to be a “menace to America.”

Chinese in America were denounced, persecuted and lynched, while the head of a United States government commission publicly urged in 1945 "the extermination of the Japanese in toto." Most shamefully, anti-Asian racism led to the internment of 110,000 Japanese-Americans during World War II.

All that is part of America’s heritage, and typically as each group has assimilated, it has participated in the torment of newer arrivals — as in Father Charles Coughlin’s ferociously anti-Semitic radio broadcasts in the 1930s. Today’s recrudescence is the lies about President Obama’s faith, and the fear-mongering about the proposed Islamic center.

But we have a more glorious tradition intertwined in American history as well, one of tolerance, amity and religious freedom. Each time, this has ultimately prevailed over the Know Nothing impulse.

Americans have called on moderates in Muslim countries to speak out against extremists, to stand up for the tolerance they say they believe in. We should all have the guts do the same at home.


I invite you to comment on this column on my blog, On the Ground. Please also join me on Facebook, watch my YouTube videos videos and follow me on Twitter.

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-06-2010, 03:20 PM
http://snarla.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/venn-diagram-al-qaeda-islam-muslims.jpg

Selena
09-06-2010, 04:18 PM
I say let them build it. then we blow it up. remember people these guys even the ones who are extremists will still cover for the extremists.

I'm beginning to see the madness beyond the madness on this sentence.

Now that I know who is talking behind this phrase I can look at this, THIS WAY:


- they build it
- 'we' destroy it
- 'we' blame it on 'them'
- vicious circle of blame.

Sounds like a 21 C Crusades to me. Like I've said all along.

No one trusts one another. THAT, I can see.


Isn't that what Sarah//Beck (http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2010/09/here-is-very-interesting-video-taken.html) are doing just now? ::runfore:

Just hear it for yourselves ... these people don't have a clue....

Simply vomiting talking-points from FOX news (or 'their sister'!) without doing their OWN
research.

Sheeple. ::bagonhead::

I really do sometimes wish I were amongst the blissfully ignorant.

I really do. Live would be SO much easier.

Mistress Morigianna
09-07-2010, 12:45 AM
nice fact page for reposting on face book or anyewhere you need to

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/aug/19/rick-lazio/ground-zero-mosque-ground-zero/

BronxGirl
09-07-2010, 02:06 PM
It seems that New Yorkers are better at geography than most Americans at least when it comes to our city. (At :33 you can see the building where I used to work.)

http://gocl.me/9Bt8Sf

Azura
09-07-2010, 03:12 PM
It seems that New Yorkers are better at geography than most Americans at least when it comes to our city. (At :33 you can see the building where I used to work.)

http://gocl.me/9Bt8Sf

I have no idea how NYC is situated. No clue. I know the names of some of the parts or boroughs or whatever they're called (Gah, I'm hopeless!) but I couldn't tell you where they go or what's in them. :oops:

The 6th Rogue
09-08-2010, 11:58 AM
I've got the solution to the whole Middle East violence thing: we weaponize marijuana, fog all the hot zones and then withhold pizza until our demands are met.

Ravin' Raven
09-08-2010, 04:57 PM
I've got the solution to the whole Middle East violence thing: we weaponize marijuana, fog all the hot zones and then withhold pizza until our demands are met.

and Juicy Juice....withhold the noms and the Juicy Juice.

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-08-2010, 08:30 PM
remember people these guys even the ones who aren't extremists will still cover for the extremists.

I know that there's no place for facts in this discussion, but on the off chance that you actually want to learn something, here:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=moderate+muslims+against+extremism

http://www.islamfortoday.com/fundamnetalism.htm

http://www.freemuslims.org/

http://xrdarabia.org/2010/08/20/speaking-out-against-extremist-islam/

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/41472/20100806/moderate-muslim-declares-intellectual-and-spiritual-war-against-extremism-ahead-of-first-anti-terror.htm

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/11/the-jihad-against-the-jihadis.html

The 6th Rogue
09-13-2010, 05:48 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/10/phyllis-chesler-terry-jones-koran-middle-east-muslims-throw-acid-human-rights/#commenting

LdyJhawk
09-13-2010, 05:59 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/10/phyllis-chesler-terry-jones-koran-middle-east-muslims-throw-acid-human-rights/#commenting

Fox News as a source, this argument is invalid

Bean
09-13-2010, 07:06 PM
And to top it off, it isn't a news story, it's an opinion piece.....

mehlen
09-13-2010, 08:23 PM
My .02 (for whatever it's worth.) If folks wish to practice religious intolerance...then by all means please move to those countries that pride themselves on such intolerance. In the meantime...this is America and we were founded on the pricipals of freedom of religion...

Hitler's Germany was FILLED with "good Christians" killing off Jews and people that protected the Jews. This DOES NOT make all Christians killers of Jews...or even a majority of them killers of Jews. It made some whack-jobs killers of Jews. Guess what...it was whack jobs that brought down the towers...and the idots that spread hatred are finishing the job the terrorists started...tearing this coutry apart with fear and hate. Wow...Does anyone realize that Muslims died in the Twin Towers that day too? So did Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, and much more. Just because some whack-jobs happened to be Muslim...no reason to deny them. After all...we didn't deny the Christians after Timothy McVeigh blew up the Federal Building in OKC.

Okay...off my soapbox now. Sorry if I offended anyone.



http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/10/phyllis-chesler-terry-jones-koran-middle-east-muslims-throw-acid-human-rights/#commenting

Cyranno DeBoberac
09-14-2010, 12:30 AM
And to top it off, it isn't a news story, it's an opinion piece.....

And not just an opinion piece, but an opinion piece from Fox "News", who proves on a daily basis that opinions are like assholes, by being completely overrun by shitty examples of both.

The 6th Rogue
09-14-2010, 10:38 AM
:-) .

Adriana Rose
09-14-2010, 08:19 PM
and Juicy Juice....withhold the noms and the Juicy Juice.

Dont forget the cheetos

The 6th Rogue
09-15-2010, 12:22 PM
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/islam_and_the_american_public.html

Isabelle Warwicke
09-15-2010, 02:48 PM
I've got the solution to the whole Middle East violence thing: we weaponize marijuana, fog all the hot zones and then withhold pizza until our demands are met.

Just great. Now I want pizza.

The 6th Rogue
09-15-2010, 05:37 PM
Just great. Now I want pizza.

You're welcome. I was testing my mind powers on that post. Just wait till the subliminal suggestions I added to the article link I posted above kick in.