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jack spratt
09-14-2010, 10:41 AM
My Uncle spent 18 months has a chinese POW during Korea. My Father was killed in Vietnam I spent 20 years of my life in service to the country. I have had friends KIA in the last 6 years iraq/Afghanistan. All for America. AND at least 1 member of my family has been in every altercation the USA has been invovled with since we immigrated to this country in the 1800's

None of them died for the Mexican Flag.

Everyone died for the U.S. flag.

Last May, in Texas, a student raised a Mexican flag on a school flag pole; another student took it down. Guess who was expelled...the kid who took it down.

Kids in high school in California were sent home this may on Cinco de Mayo because they wore T-shirts with the American flag printed on them.

Enough is enough.

The below message needs to be viewed by every American; and every American needs to stand up for America.

We've bent over to appease the America-haters long enough.

I'm taking a stand.

I'm standing up because the hundreds of thousands who died fighting in wars for this country, and for the U.S. flag can't stand up.

And shame on anyone who tries to make this a racist message.


A Map Of My Country:

Let me make this perfectly clear!
http://f586.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f14529%5fAM7sjkQAAPXiTFnugwFoOkG2F 9E&pid=2&fid=Inbox&inline=1



THIS IS MY COUNTRY!

And, because I make This statement


DOES NOT



Mean I'm against immigration!!!

YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, IN MY COUNTRY!

Welcome! To come through legally:


1. Get a sponsor!


2. Get a place to lay your head!


3. Get a job!


4. Live By OUR Rules!



5. Pay YOUR Taxes!


And


6. Learn the LANGUAGE like immigrants
have in the past!!!


AND


7. Please don't demand that we hand over our lifetime

savings of Social Security Funds to you.



If you don't want to forward this for fear of offending someone,


Then YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM!


When will AMERICANS STOP giving away THEIR RIGHTS???



We've gone so far the other way...


bent over backwards not to offend anyone.


But it seems no one cares about the


AMERICAN CITIZEN


that's being offended!

http://f586.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f14529%5fAM7sjkQAAPXiTFnugwFoOkG2F 9E&pid=3&fid=Inbox&inline=1


WAKE UP America !!!



http://f586.mail.yahoo.com/ya/download?mid=1%5f14529%5fAM7sjkQAAPXiTFnugwFoOkG2F 9E&pid=4&fid=Inbox&inline=1

DoñaNina
09-14-2010, 10:48 AM
Apparently, someone isn't a fan of illegal immigrants. >_> Sure hope you grow all your own food, buddy.

jack spratt
09-14-2010, 11:02 AM
so what are you saying that only a illegal immigrant can pick food? America has many homeless people that would work for 2 hots and a cot. put them on a farm give them food shelter a a small dividend to compensate.

DoñaNina
09-14-2010, 11:09 AM
so what are you saying that only a illegal immigrant can pick food? America has many homeless people that would work for 2 hots and a cot. put them on a farm give them food shelter a a small dividend to compensate.

I love this idea! Oh wait, they already tried...

http://www.takeourjobs.org/

If you'd like to take their jobs, they're up for grabs!

jack spratt
09-14-2010, 11:13 AM
nope i have skills. I get calls weekly from companies begging me to work for them. seems being a sheetmetal mechanic has its uses

DoñaNina
09-14-2010, 11:15 AM
nope i have skills.

Clearly.

jack spratt
09-14-2010, 11:29 AM
So are you impliing that since my opinion may differ from yours I have no talents?

No dona, I spent 20 years learning how to bend and form/shape metals. I have fabricated parts for NASA just 2 months ago. and currently Im rebuilding aircraft that should be in a junk yard

DoñaNina
09-14-2010, 11:35 AM
So are you impliing that since my opinion may differ from yours I have no talents?

No dona, I spent 20 years learning how to bend and form/shape metals. I have fabricated parts for NASA just 2 months ago. and currently Im rebuilding aircraft that should be in a junk yard

Wow, you sound amazing! I'm surprised someone of your amazingness spends so much time posting things about illegal immigration he found on the internet , and not hooking up with a billion hot chicks.

Lady Hefron
09-14-2010, 11:51 AM
Has it really come down to anyone expressing an opinion not held by others must be insulted? I thought the "We've Got Issues" forum was to express opinions that may range all over the place, apparently I'm wrong. Too bad, I used to enjoy reading everyone's differing opinions and the discussion it created.

DoñaNina
09-14-2010, 11:56 AM
Has it really come down to anyone expressing an opinion not held by others must be insulted? I thought the "We've Got Issues" forum was to express opinions that may range all over the place, apparently I'm wrong. Too bad, I used to enjoy reading everyone's differing opinions and the discussion it created.

Okay okay okay, my bad. I'm just used to people stating their opinion a little better. This dude shows up with three posts about why illegal immigrants are destroying America, and how being a dual language country will have us all conquered. It was a little silly. Okay, illigal immigration is a big issue, but holy crap.

jack spratt
09-14-2010, 12:22 PM
This DUDE spent 20 yearsof his life ensuring YOU the right to have free speech.

This DUDE stood by ready to do violence on your behalf so you could sleep soundly.

And this DUDE has actually been on this board a lot longer then you. just a new user name.

Go look up Biker has a member

Phoenix McHeit
09-14-2010, 12:29 PM
True enough Biker.

However - you've flooded the board today with OMGNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTHEY'RETAKINGOURCOUNTRYSTOPITNOW !!!!!! email forwards and it's a bit sad.

Come up with your own opinions and discuss them. Fine, let's do that. But when you post inflammatory non-researched pieces you should expect to be called on them.

prospero
09-14-2010, 01:24 PM
Cutting and pasting some jingoistic web page whargable in to a forum. It’s the electronic equivalent of taking a dump on someone’s front porch. That’s a fine way to start off a thread jack.
The “shame on anyone” line is a nice preemptive strike. Well done.
On a side note, the misrepresentation of what happened in Texas gets the Truthiness stamp of approval. It’s an amped up version of what actually occurred less a fact or two. I know it’s just a cut and paste. It’s still crap. The tee shirt thing is for real though, and for clarity it should be said that the school board told the principal and vice principal not to do such a thing ever again. They got off easy.
Presentation is the key to being taken seriously. When I see things like this it makes me sad, regardless how much I agree with parts of it. Its screed, plain and simple.


...I used to enjoy reading everyone's differing opinions and the discussion it created.

A discussion? How about asking what’s happening to immigration reform? Way back in 2004 Bush had an actual plan where our cheap labor pool could transition from illegal to legal with no amnesty. It was not rhetoric, there were achievable goals built in. Now we have John McCain, who fully understands the need for such cheap labor, campaigning on building a wall. And winning!! 2004: Let’s get a fix for this. Let’s talk about it. 2010: Let’s build a fucking wall. Let’s repeal the 14th amendment. Who’s winning?
Oh and I know my DirtyHippyLieberalDemonkratNannystatelovingSociali stCommie cred takes a serious hit pointing out that the Great Evil One ™ had a plan that should have been worked on. Ah well. I really thought it was a good plan.
So how’s that for a discussion starter? And I'm completely serious. I don't get why Bush's plan was so terrible. It seemed to me to be a win for everyone.
Ah shit. I've taken so long to type this out I now see where there may be some problems. Well fuck all I'm posting anyway. Have at it.

DoñaNina
09-14-2010, 01:42 PM
So how’s that for a discussion starter? And I'm completely serious. I don't get why Bush's plan was so terrible. It seemed to me to be a win for everyone.

Er.. I agree with you.

Cursed be the Evil One!! I guess the one time he was out to do something good, nobody trusted it.

Selena
09-14-2010, 05:23 PM
True enough Biker.

However - you've flooded the board today with OMGNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTHEY'RETAKINGOURCOUNTRYSTOPITNOW !!!!!! email forwards and it's a bit sad.

Come up with your own opinions and discuss them. Fine, let's do that. But when you post inflammatory non-researched pieces you should expect to be called on them.


Yeah, I gotta agree with her, Biker.

I dunno, but the multiple chicken little forwards are a bit much. I don't seem to recall seeing these kinds of things from you in the past. Yes, yes, you have a right to your opinion... but you should know better - seeing as you have been here for several years - that touchy, inflammatory topics result in touchy responses.

I'm not quite sure why you decided to come back if all you're going to do is throw gasoline on the hot political topics of late. What's up with that? Do you wish to have a discussion or just piss people off?

Really... just wondering. I'm really confused by all the recent drama surrounding your return.


** edit **
Nevermind, I suppose. I just read Snipe's reply on another thread. Doesn't quite matter, I guess....

Lady Hefron
09-14-2010, 05:46 PM
Prospero, thank you for posting a thought out response.

daBaroness
09-14-2010, 10:10 PM
He's really not far off from my own feelings. I have no problems with immigration. We're a country full of immigrants except for the true native people. But heretofore, immigrants wanted to become part of the U.S. culture - including language, education, etc. I've always been a pretty open-minded person, but I've always done my best to play by the rules because I know when I don't - I get burned.

There are some huge disparities being given to various groups of immigrants - and for people my age, certainly those my parent's age and some younger - there's just something intrinsicaly wrong with holding one group of honest, hard-working people to one set of rules, and others - who have broken the law just by crossing the border without going through the proper procedures - getting benefits and allowances and amnesty our own native-born citizens are not.

It's at best a difficult situation - exacerbated in great part by the Mexican government who has done nothing to improve its economy, civil rights or curb crime borne of its poverty. I have a dear friend whose wife and he both had high-ranking jobs and were sponsored by Forbes 100 companies to be here in the U.S., and they had to jump through all kinds of hoops. Carlos's feelings were that doing things legally was getting more difficult because of all of his countrymen who were hamstrining the U.S. Customs and Immigration service with law enforcement rather than focusing their attention on those who were following the rules. He blamed the Mexican government and its corruption - and said he believes it's the drug cartels and criminals who are controlling Mexico to the point her own citizens want out - no matter what the cost.

I know I'm not alone in my leariness as I watch us become a country that seems to cater to Spanish-speaking immigrants who can't even read their own native language, muchless learn to speak and read English. If that makes me an intolerant bitch - so be it. It's the way I feel. I live in an apartment community that is quickly becoming predominantly Mexican and Spanish-speaking. I have no problem with anyone who wants to live here and can afford it - I do have a problem when the apartment complex has rules about how many individuals can occupy a unit - and enforce them for U.S. citizens, but when three families pool their money to afford a 2-bedroom apartment and the complex management turns a blind eye because it keeps the owners happy to have higher residency numbers - that just plain blows. And it sets up people on both sides of the issue.

I am not a bigot singling out Hispanics. Lord knows there have always been various groups of immigrants to this country who have been shunned - none more than perhaps the Irish Catholics and Eastern Europeans of the 19th century and the southeast asians of the late 20th century. Somehow we've managed to incorporate these groups into our big old chili pot (it's not a melting pot - nor should it be). But as a long-time taxpayer who will most likely not be able to benefit from all the money I've had to put into social security and taxes - I just plain don't like my tax dollars going to provide services above and beyond what others get or have gotten.

My biggest pet peeve is language. I know the U.S. is woefully ignorant of other languages and I find that sad. But when the state-run hospital for which I work is suddenly shelling out thousands upon thousands of dollars for translators just so we can treat Medicaid patients ... I'm sorry that just doesn't sit right with me. Everyone in this country seems to think some magic money fairy is going to pop out of thin air and pay for all of these wonderful services - and Washington seems to be leading that charge on that fantasy.

This is a very broad and emotional topic for a great many people. I don't think any decent American really wants to deny help to those in need. I do think a great many of those same decent American's just don't like being treated like the cash cows to the world while being held to a different set of rules than those who break the law. And last time I checked - illegal immigration is still ... illegal. No matter what country you come from.

Oh - and if you think I'm blowing smoke - check on some of the anti-American laws Mexico has enacted in recent years that make it next to impossible for Americans to own property, hold certain jobs, be denied legal protection and even making it illegal to bring an American car into Mexico if you're planning to or do live there.

A little equality goes a LONG way.

Selena
09-14-2010, 10:32 PM
See that? That long post above this one? Yeah...

... that is a discussion with a point of view and specific reasons for that point of view. ::clappin:


Thanks daB for your input!

Ravin' Raven
09-14-2010, 10:41 PM
Okay I'm going to weigh in on some general things here.

1) I do not feel that Dona's original reply was an attack against Jack (Biker). It was snarky and matched the snarky tone of the copy and paste message (which honestly I wouldn't have gotten past). It was when the originator of the thread got a bit defensive that the battle began. Again, something one might expect on a hot topic.
2) Yes the We've Got Issues threads invite, invoke, and incur a multitude of responses. However, if you are not going to post your own thoughful rebuttals to anything but only reply to chastise others, then read and move on. This is a theme that I have been finding more and more on these boards. Den-mothers feeling the need to rebutt and chastise and try to ensure political correctness between the kids.
3) Trust me I know that for me personally and several other follks I know, if I am dishing it out I fully expect to get it back with an extra quota right back at me.
4) Honestly, while I appreciate Prospero's response it was no less or more thought out than the original chain letter post or than Dona's posting of a link that specifically addressed one of Jack's postulations: that homeless folks could be used to work jobs that current illegal workers are taking.
5) There are different areas of these boards that cater to different levels of discussion, debate, hand holding, and singing of kumbaya. There are recipes and book discussions, local happening information, and on and on. Personally you won't see me posting for help or thoughts or anything, it's not my style, so they are not the posts I tend to read and respond to unless it is someone I personally know. I will post humor, innuendo, cheese shots, and yes debate which others may not agree with but if they are not the one with whom I am directly debating or involved in the conversation I'd appreciate being allowed to behave like the adult that I am knowing that should I cross some proverbial line there are moderators and others who will get me back in line.

Thank you for your attention...you may now return to your regularly scheduled issues.

oh and DaB...one little correction if I may...Americans aren't very good at their OWN language these days not just others! I had to cringe a number of times in meetings today! :-)

daBaroness
09-14-2010, 10:45 PM
oh and DaB...one little correction if I may...Americans aren't very good at their OWN language these days not just others! I had to cringe a number of times in meetings today! :-)

No argument from me there m'dear. No argument at all!

LdyJhawk
09-15-2010, 12:50 AM
I honestly have no concerns that so many seem to about things like government forms and healthcare options being posted/spoken about in languages other than english. While I know many people who are immigrants legally to this country speak english, they also feel MUCH more comfortable making important decisions re: politics, taxes and their health in their native language as it is the one that they have the most innate familiarity with.

I could approve medical care in spanish, but if I were in mexico and needed medical assistance you better damn well believe I would be begging anyone who would listen for someone to give me the information in the language I've spoken since around age 1 :P


I think it's telling that despite being a nation with no formally recognized language, there are so many people who seem somewhat offended by the fact that bilingual abilities in english and spanish are highly prized. We have a large hispanic population that granted isn't 100% legal at all times but frankly there is no harm in being able to communicate clearly with the people living here regardless of their legal status..


As for illegal immigration, here's the thing, too many Americans are living under the delusion that they "deserve" great paying jobs making them 40 grand minimum each year with a corner office and even the homeless don't want to work for the 2 bucks an hour the migrant worker population gets picking fruit. They feel it's beneath them. You force all of those people to go through the time and expense of citizenship and none of them will be able to afford working for 2 an hour either and those precious strawberries you like paying 3 dollars a pound for will suddenly be luxury priced right out of your diet

DoñaNina
09-15-2010, 08:54 AM
Okay I'm going to weigh in on some general things here.

1) I do not feel that Dona's original reply was an attack against Jack (Biker). It was snarky and matched the snarky tone of the copy and paste message (which honestly I wouldn't have gotten past). It was when the originator of the thread got a bit defensive that the battle began. Again, something one might expect on a hot topic.

Basically this, and thank you. I'm totally cool with real debate about immigration and illegal immigration. I understand why people are upset about how America is changing, and I like talking about that sort of thing civilly. What get my goat is when people start posting forwarded e-mails about how America is being destroyed by learning another language (WTF?) and being bred out of existence (WTF!??!?!).

I'm what some might call an "anchor baby", AKA, a first generation American. It doesn't help that my mom is European, or that my dad is actually a NATIVE Central American.. to most people (like the only lady who so colorfully spoke to me in VA, at the grocery store...), being Hispanic means "go back to your own country!!"

The truth is.. up until 100 years or so ago, a lot of the US -WAS- their country. In fact, anyone with Apache in them could be considered Mexican, as the Apache nation originated and migrated through parts of Mexico and Texas. New Mexico itself is considered a bi-lengual state. California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico were once predominantly Spanish speaking colonies. So really, America isn't changing all that much. What you're seeing is the natural migration of a land-walking species that tends to move around. That's why Europe speaks such similar languages, and why they now have the European union.

There is a lot to be said about American culture changing, but really, when has it NOT been changing? We're a very young nation, and we've never really had a stable culture. We're all different, and that's what makes America different from every other country. So we can either love what makes us different, and be cool with the change, or try and cling to some ideology, which is different from person to person. Some people see an ideal America as one that is predominantly white and English speaking. Some people see an ideal America as one that is bilengual and predominantly mutlicultural. It's different from person to person, which personally, is what I love about this country.

Margaret
09-15-2010, 09:22 AM
As for illegal immigration, here's the thing, too many Americans are living under the delusion that they "deserve" great paying jobs making them 40 grand minimum each year with a corner office and even the homeless don't want to work for the 2 bucks an hour the migrant worker population gets picking fruit. They feel it's beneath them. You force all of those people to go through the time and expense of citizenship and none of them will be able to afford working for 2 an hour either and those precious strawberries you like paying 3 dollars a pound for will suddenly be luxury priced right out of your diet

Then that is something that we will have to deal with. The people who cross our boarder and plunk their butts down are breaking our laws. Period. Flat out. They should not be pitied for thier plight or catered to. The agruement of "Who will pick our food?!?!"? Farmers will find people to do it or develop ways means and methods to get the food out of the fields. We will eat less strawberries. We adapt. We do that.

America cannot continue to support the world. We, as a country, are seen as having so much to give. Money spilling out of our pockets. We give and give and support and say; "OK, just a billion dollars more." So we give and give some more. Then we realize that we actually need some money coming in as well. Opps. Let's increase taxes. Higher tax on food, gas, income, blah, blah, blah. As it is, my husband and I work until the end of April for 'free' just so our income taxes get paid. That is more than enough for me, thanks.

MillieWylde
09-15-2010, 09:28 AM
they also feel MUCH more comfortable making important decisions re: politics, taxes and their health in their native language as it is the one that they have the most innate familiarity with.

I could approve medical care in spanish, but if I were in mexico and needed medical assistance you better damn well believe I would be begging anyone who would listen for someone to give me the information in the language I've spoken since around age 1 :P

...so is there any problem with getting kids to start learning other languages at age 1 - or whenever they start formal schooling? After all, that IS the age when we pick up most easily on different languages...

I honestly cannot believe that 'every country that has been bilingual has fallen apart' as was suggested earlier in the thread. Canada is bilingual. They don't seem to be turning themselves inside out over it. And another thought - just because the laws do not enforce bi-/multi-lingual studies in public schools does not mean that there couldn't be more opportunities for children/parents/students-of-all-ages to learn more languages! (I've got about 3 on my life-list right now. I don't expect to be fluent in all of them, but I'd love to get a good basis in them. ::reading: I'm a self-confessed nerd, though. Even one extra language would benefit many people.)

I do agree, by the way, that if people want to migrate to this country permanently they should probably at least make an effort to learn the language that our laws are written in.


There is a lot to be said about American culture changing, but really, when has it NOT been changing? We're a very young nation, and we've never really had a stable culture. We're all different, and that's what makes America different from every other country. So we can either love what makes us different, and be cool with the change, or try and cling to some ideology, which is different from person to person. Some people see an ideal America as one that is predominantly white and English speaking. Some people see an ideal America as one that is bilengual and predominantly mutlicultural. It's different from person to person, which personally, is what I love about this country.

This. Thank you. :thumbsup: I don't believe there ever HAS been a time when the culture of this country has not been in flux. Of course, that is (to a certain extent) true of every culture - there are always new innovations, new technologies, new standards, new fashions ... therefore new culture, technically. (And yes, I know that culture is a lot more than just those four things I listed.)

My two coins.

DoñaNina
09-15-2010, 09:41 AM
...so is there any problem with getting kids to start learning other languages at age 1 - or whenever they start formal schooling? After all, that IS the age when we pick up most easily on different languages...

I totally agree with this! I worked at a bilengual school in Arlington, where kids spent 1/2 the day learning in English, and 1/2 the day learning in Spanish. Studies have proven that bilengual kids score higher in tests, AND speak both languages better! It makes sense to have kids learn a little bit of other languages during their early years. There are also French bilengual schools, which would be uber handy considering our neighbors to the north, who are definitely not in any sort of bilengual turmoil.

Now, as for immigrants coming here and plunking down their butts.. personally, I've never met one who did that. In this area (DC metro area), most of the immigrants are Salvadorian, and they all work. I've never met an immigrant that didn't try to learn English and get a job, but maybe that's regional. I can't speak for all immigrants. All I know is that of the ones I've met, they've worked VERY hard, doing VERY hard work (janitor.. landscaping..) just to make ends meet and give a better life to their kids. Meanwhile, the kids I grew up with, who grew up in their own home with college readily available.. they turn to drugs. They didn't watch their parents struggle. They live at home with mom and dad by choice. Not all American kids are doing this, of course.. but enough are doing it that it's easy to see why we've become a nation dependant on cheap labor.

And that's why not a lot of Americans have submitted their names to the "Take Our Jobs!" campaign. Despite all of the unemployment in this country, there aren't many who are willing to pick fruit for less than minimum wage. And unless we want to start paying 10$ for a head of lettuce (I exaggerate, of course!), that's how much they're going to need to be paid.

Ravin' Raven
09-15-2010, 09:47 AM
. The agruement of "Who will pick our food?!?!"? Farmers will find people to do it or develop ways means and methods to get the food out of the fields. We will eat less strawberries. We adapt. We do that.



Actually not that long ago (my mom's generation), that's why farmers had 10-12 kids (my mom is one of 12 and my dad is one of 8)! They were the free labor on their parents farms when they were young and then they had kids who became free labor as well! Then there were itinerent workers who traveled around and helped as well. But then again people had a different work ethic back then too IMHO. Of course if the average American knew how food is grown (don't get me started on the comments I hear at the farmer's market - what's that? How do you eat that? It's a frigging butternut squash! Or the person I personally knew who thought cucumbers grew underground!) and did their own, they'd need fewer commerically produced products. No you don't need tons of land - Mother Earth News had a great piece on a family that is living sustainably on 1/5 of an acre! They garden up!

Fact is that the vast majority of people I know and on this board are immigrants from either this generation (like our lovely Dona) or several generations.

It is not immigration that people don't care for, it's the illegal part and there have got to ways to fix that short of snipers every 100 feet at the border. I understand that in a few cases these people are desparate (maybe an ill child they want to have good medical care for example).

Oh and Jack - I may never have served in the military but that doesn't mean that I or anyone here cares less about this country than people who serve: not everyone can or should serve in the military - there are a limited number of jobs in the service and many people work civilian jobs that support our efforts. I may not have carried a weapon but I have voted and made my voice heard and done my best to also ensure that we all have the freedom of speech and other great freedoms we all fight for in our own ways. Appie works at the USO, others have husbands, sons, sisters in the military. And while I completely and wholly support our military I do reserve the right to take umbrage when people put themselves on that much higher of a "I love American more" platform because they have served. It does not do justice to those who are serving.

Margaret
09-15-2010, 10:00 AM
Actually not that long ago (my mom's generation), that's why farmers had 10-12 kids (my mom is one of 12 and my dad is one of 8)! They were the free labor on their parents farms when they were young and then they had kids who became free labor as well!

Why do you think HG is around?! I certainly don't want to clean the cat box!! :-D

DoñaNina
09-15-2010, 10:10 AM
Why do you think HG is around?! I certainly don't want to clean the cat box!! :-D

Yeah, pretty much why I got married.. needed someone to do the "icky" chores.

Ravin' Raven
09-15-2010, 10:18 AM
Why do you think HG is around?! I certainly don't want to clean the cat box!! :-D

You are sooooo bad...and yet soooooo good. ::waggle::

Margaret
09-15-2010, 11:04 AM
You are sooooo bad...and yet soooooo good. ::waggle::

In soooooooo many ways!!! ::waggle::