A very powerful SD article.

[Ysobelle]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=31731

[willow of the wooded fortress]

Wow. Very powerful article. I'm sending it to every woman I know.

[Buxom Wench]

Wow. Very powerful article. I'm sending it to every woman I know.


I second that !!!

[Dmitri]

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=31731

Gods bless Cecilia Fire Thunder...

And Nikki, again I admit that I was wrong...

[Lady Anisette]

Whoa..... potent stuff.

Every woman who has ever walked in that 18-year-old girl's shoes, knows in depth all those feelings. Great article.

And as far as that senator goes..... gee, mister, I didn't know there were varying degrees of rape. :roll: Moron..... may you come back in your next life as a rape victim. :censored:

[Buxom Wench]

Whoa..... potent stuff.

Every woman who has ever walked in that 18-year-old girl's shoes, knows in depth all those feelings. Great article.

And as far as that senator goes..... gee, mister, I didn't know there were varying degrees of rape. :roll: Moron..... may you come back in your next life as a rape victim. :censored:

As a rape survivor, his attitude had my blood boiling and had me getting ready for the kill!

[Selena]

Wow. Thanks for posting this, Yso.

[Mistress Lisette]

It's not really a matter of protecting the unborn; it's a matter of making girls and women disappear. For the right-to-lifers, sexual women need to be stopped, erased, reconfigured, terminated.
That's exactly what this is, as is all the other crap that's espoused by fascist fundamentalists, whether it's Christianity or Muslim or whatever. It's not about the so-called "vulnerable." It's about punishing women for daring to become independent, self-governing, sentient beings.

[Cruisewench]

South Dakota Senator Bill Napoli went so far as to use the phrase "simple rape," as in, if it's a simple rape, a woman should not have access to abortion. Only in cases where a raped girl "was a virgin... was religious... planned on saving her virginity until she was married... was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated," should the law make an exception.
:augh: Rape is rape, no matter wether the girl wanted to wait or not! A woman who lost her virginity willingly and was then raped has the same rights and goes thru the same trauma as someone who was forced or coerced into it.
What really pisses me off, being a rape survivor who lost her virginity because of it, is that there are no exceptions. It creates women who now not only have to deal with the trauma of a rape, but also with the problems asociated with pregnancy.

[Mistress Morigianna]

update on the clinic
http://www.argusleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060531/NEWS/605310319/1001

[Isabelle Warwicke]

"I do not feel comfortable telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body," Peters said. "Yet at the same time, I share the cultural viewpoint that life is sacred."

Oh puh-lease! You winy namby-pamby wimp. Just another example of a political figure, this time a member of a Tribal Council, bowing down to pressure and the political machine.

I CANNOT believe that they went and held up the ban on the reservation. OF course perhaps some other Indian Nation on a seperate reservation will pick up the flag that has been dropped and will contu\inue to carry it in the stead of Fire Thunder. There has to be a reasonable Council some where in SD or at least a leader who can present it to the Council in a way that makes it easier for them to palate.

I'm starting to see red now....Cry Havoc!

[Ysobelle]

"I do not feel comfortable telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body," Peters said. "Yet at the same time, I share the cultural viewpoint that life is sacred."

Oh puh-lease! You winy namby-pamby wimp. Just another example of a political figure, this time a member of a Tribal Council, bowing down to pressure and the political machine.



I don't know-- I think this guy encapsulates just why abortion is such a volatile issue. I know exactly what he's saying, I just come down a few inches away on the other side of the line: I feel life is sacred, but I don't feel comfortable telling a woman what to do with her body. My only absolute is that if it's not my body, it's not my choice.

[Foxglove2660]

South Dakota Senator Bill Napoli went so far as to use the phrase "simple rape," as in, if it's a simple rape, a woman should not have access to abortion. Only in cases where a raped girl "was a virgin... was religious... planned on saving her virginity until she was married... was brutalized and raped, sodomized as bad as you can possibly make it, and is impregnated," should the law make an exception.

I don't care if she's stripped naked and covered in honey, if she says "no" then it is rape.

[Leyla]

I know this isn't going to be a popular viewpoint here, but I just can't listen/read so much pro-choice propaganda and not say a word.
Let's start by saying that I agree, a rape is a rape is a rape regardless of the circumstances, and were it to hapen to me I like to think I'd have enough support from my friends, family and church to go through with the pregnancy, but until I'm in those shoes I'm not about to say for certain what would happen, or to chastise any woman choosing abortion after such an event.
Beyond that this womans article would have held a lot more water for me if she had in fact been raped. She wasn't raped. She was sleeping around. Oh and guess what happens when you sleep around and don't use protection....you get pregnant. I'm not buying that bs about not knowing how pregnancy happens. I might MIGHT buy that during her childhood sex-ed wasn't what it is now, but now adays they're starting sex-ed damn near in kindergarten (I know I'm exagerrating, but you get the idea).
Then we have the whole femi-nazi "women are strong, we can do anything rawwwrrr, don't open the door for me male-opressor!" mentality of so many pro-choice voices out there, but this lady is all "I was so upset, I couldn't even use the cash machine." Give me a break :roll: Maybe, if you are in such a state that you can't use the cash machine you should be talking to a councilor, not going under the knife...maybe, just a thought.
As for a womans right to chose...If you choose to have sex, and you choose not to use multiple forms of birthcontrol, you are choosing to create a life. Yes, birthcontrol isn't 100% effective, but you are still choosing to take those risks. How can you then decide to choose to terminate a life?
I've always thought (even in my more promiscuous days) that if you are adult enough to be having sex you should be adult enough to deal with the consequences. There are millions of couples out there who can't have babies and would love and adore a child. There are tons of support and organizations to assist a woman in all the aspects of her pregancy through the adoption process.
As far as SD is concerned "woot!!! Way to go! Honor life and responsibility!" Maybe some of the women traveling out of state to terminate the life of their unborn child will take the travel time to reconsider their decision.

Getting down off my soap-box. I hate abortion, I see it as a termination of life. I do not hate the people who have choosen abortion as an option, or who have seen it as their only way out of a horrible situation. I know and am close to women who have made that choice in their lives. I just wanted to say my piece. I realize this is a very volatile subject, and maybe I should have stayed out of it. I just felt that reading this material and not responding was in a way affirming that I agree with what's been written so far, and I don't. Thanks for letting me have my say too.

[Bean]

If all those people who wanted children but couldn't have them didn't want infants only, there wouldn't be ANY unwanted children. And just because someone is promiscuous doesn't mean that they don't have the right to say no. ANYONE can be raped, virgin, wife, mother, hooker, or a girl that "sleeps around"......... No means no.

There was a very good article in the Washington Post last Sunday about a woman who is married, got wild and crazy one night with her husband and didn't put in her diaphram. She called her doctor to get the morning after pill and her doctor wouldn't give it to her, no explanations. She ended up pregnant and had to navigate the pathway to an abortion at age 42. Very interesting article.

Abortion is a very personal choice, not right for everyone. But why does everyone think they know what is good for me? Am I not adult enough to make that decision on my own? I work, pay bills, contribute to society in a positive manner, mind my own business (most of the time), and vote. Why do groups assume that because I am a woman I don't know what I want? Pro-choice is just that, a CHOICE. But it seems to me that pro-life just forces people to choose what pro-life wants, not what is in the best interest for the individual............

[Ysobelle]

I don't care if you sleep with eight guys in three days-- that's not my business. Someone else's sex life is just that: their life. It doesn't make them any more or less deserving of the medical care they choose. Nor does it make said care anyone else's business, or give anyone else the right to judge.

Attaching moral judgements to someone else's life is a dangerous slope. I know perfectly wonderful people who are quite happily polygamous. I know complete bitches who are stridently monogamous. Their choice to get an abotion or not should something happen is between them and their doctor. If you know you can't bear and/or take care of a child, not bringing that child into the world seems a wise choice to me.

But again: not my body, not my choice.

[Selena]

As for a womans right to chose...If you choose to have sex, and you choose not to use multiple forms of birthcontrol, you are choosing to create a life....I've always thought (even in my more promiscuous days) that if you are adult enough to be having sex you should be adult enough to deal with the consequences.

Just one question and I'm curious to know what you think. What if said "woman" is 12 or 13 years old and the father is the same age? Do you feel a 12 year old girl has the culpability to realize what she's doing, much less know what she's doing bringing an unwanted child into the world?

Sorry, but as Yso said, not my body, not my choice. Someone else's sex life is none of my concern unless I'm having to pay for their mistakes. Which, by the way, each and every single one of us does.

[Leyla]

The main thing I see is that the law isn't designed to hurt women. It's designed to protect the life of the child being aborted. That's what laws are supposed to do, help protect life. It's like saying that I have the choice to drink, and I have the choice to then get into my car and drive around. The law against it isn't to say, "well you can't make this choice for yourself." It's designed to protect the lives of the other people on the road.
For me saying that I can choose to kill an unborn baby is like saying I also have the right to kill my own 9 month old child. For me life starts at conception, and what SD has done is to agree with that, life begins from conception.
As cliche as the bumper stickers are: "Abortion stops a beating heart."
It isn't an anger issue, though I do get upset by some of the propaganda, it's more of a sad thing for me. I'm sorry, but the thought of all those unborn babies....not to mention the emotional damage done to the woman who "chooses" to kill her child... it's sad.

[Bean]

I'm sorry, but the thought of all those unborn babies....not to mention the emotional damage done to the woman who "chooses" to kill her child... it's sad.

I sleep just fine at night having had an abortion at age 18.........

[Selena]

The main thing I see is that the law isn't designed to hurt women.... <snip>

This doesn't answer my question.

[Isabelle Warwicke]

So since we are going to stir the soup...let me add a little something.

What about etopic pregnancies? Those are actual fetuses, however they have implanted in the fallopian tube. Does terminating one of those count as abortion? Are those not allowed in SD or in any pro-life arena? May I also remind you before you answer that letting an etopic pregnancy stay in place will eventaully KILL the mother. For that matter what about those women whose bodies cannot survive the throes of pregnancy (like my best friend who has a major health condition and was told under no uncertain terms not to get pregnant)? Should they be sterilized so that they don't run the risk of a pregnancy? What about cases of incest or molestation? Are those children to be put through the wringer of pregnancy at tender young ages just to placate the collective conscience?

Wasn't there a case in Florida where a teenager got pregnant while a ward of the state and the state was forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term?
I can't find that news blip and I would love to reference it here.

[Selena]

Wasn't there a case in Florida where a teenager got pregnant while a ward of the state and the state was forcing her to carry the pregnancy to term?
I can't find that news blip and I would love to reference it here.

Yup. It's right here. Juv court ruled she could obtain a termination (which is what SHE wanted, mind you), but the state officials blocked by appealing the decision. http://www.themediaproject.com/news/itn/050305.htm

She was eventually allowed to get the abortion with the help of the ACLU.

[Leyla]

I thought I had made myself clear that I wasn't into absolute "no abortions for anybody ever." In the case of rape, as I stated, I don't know what I personally would do, and can understand more clearly a woman aborting after such a violent event.
In the case of your 12 year-old example Selena, I personally view that any 12 year old getting pregnant was raped, violent or not. She didn't know what she was doing or what she was getting into or the consequences. Even if she had been taught what sex is and how it leads to pregnancy I don't believe they have the capacity to completly understand the full impact of their actions. (on another note where the hell were her parents? But that's another issue). I'd also like to know if you think this 12 year-olds parents have the right to be notified that their child is having an abortion, another hot-topic issue surrounding a "woman's" right to choose.
I believe a woman has as much right to life as an unborn child, in the cases where the woman would die from carrying the child I agree that she should have the right to terminate. The problem here I've seen though are laws that try to state things like "unless the mother is unable to carry for medical reasons." Which is vague enough to allow providers to include "mild depression" as a medical reason to terminate.

I'd also like to add that I'm pleased that carrying this debate here has run more to valid points than personal attacks. I was a bit afraid I might have been dragged out tarred and feathered for posting my view points. I appreciate that we are all allowed to have our own beliefs about this matter without it getting nasty. :grouphug:

[Selena]

[quote=LeylaIn the case of your 12 year-old example Selena, I personally view that any 12 year old getting pregnant was raped, violent or not. She didn't know what she was doing or what she was getting into or the consequences. Even if she had been taught what sex is and how it leads to pregnancy I don't believe they have the capacity to completly understand the full impact of their actions. (on another note where the hell were her parents? But that's another issue). I'd also like to know if you think this 12 year-olds parents have the right to be notified that their child is having an abortion, another hot-topic issue surrounding a "woman's" right to choose. [/quote]

Awesome! Thanks for your viewpoint.
As for the minor's parents to be notified, yes, absolutely, I believe a child's parents should be told. However, I think it should be the child communicating with parent. Yes, yes, not realistic in most cases, but still. Technically, said child is submitting to a medical procedure. Child has no rights to act upon this medical prodedure without the consent/knowledge of parent.

In the case of the child getting pregnant in Florida, she was in foster care, the state had been managing convervator of her for about 4 years. She ran away from her foster care home and landed in bed with some man in his late 20's/30ish.

In regards to other children who ends up pregnant and where are their parents? Have you looked at this world we live in lately? Millions of kids awarded custody to their respective states, single mother families with multiple children, multiple fathers.... Need I say more?

I don't know about you, but when I was a kid, I knew it all. Still do! :wink:
What teenager do you guys know who don't know everything.