Why do all the Stoopid People keep BREEDING???

[Vixynne Rose]

For those of you whose eyes went :stunned: at the "church fires female Sunday School Teacher for being Female" thread, I give you:

Rabbi Says Breastfeeding is Adulterous (http://www.bloggingbaby.com/2006/08/17/breastfeeding-is-unsexy-and-ultimately-bad-for-your-marriage/)

Where are the torches and the pitchforks? I say it's time to storm the castle! Who's with me??

::fire::

[Peaches O Malley]

For those of you whose eyes went :stunned: at the "church fires female Sunday School Teacher for being Female" thread, I give you:

Rabbi Says Breastfeeding is Adulterous (http://www.bloggingbaby.com/2006/08/17/breastfeeding-is-unsexy-and-ultimately-bad-for-your-marriage/)

Where are the torches and the pitchforks? I say it's time to storm the castle! Who's with me??

::fire::

Me!!! Me!! Lets see...*checks inventory* Pitchfork, torch, flogger, paddle, spork........

[renren]

Maybe the husbands should sue the child for using THEIR vaginas to be born!!
OMG! Stupidity runs amok!
amokamok!::doh::
Oh yeah, I'll help storm the castle, heheheee!

[Pathos]

Why do all the Stoopid People keep BREEDING???
Unfortunately...there's this thing called.....SEX!!! ::waggle::

If we could just do something about that...

:thinking:

[Selena]

"Rabbi Shmuley Boteach wrote on Beliefnet recently that breastfeeding is unsexy and bad for your marriage. In fact, if you breastfeed your son? That's like committing adultery, because those breasts you're using? They belong to your husband."



Cannot take someone SO serious because they cannot use English correctly. Incomplete sentences, blah blah blah.

"Boteach" ?? Are we sure this isn't a satire site??

[Buxom Wench]

*in a very sarcastic Yiddish accent*

"Oy Vey! Honey, you should hear what the Rabbi said today. What a bunch of ma-shug-a-na!!"

OK, let me get my weapons and I'll meet you near the gates to the castle!

Flogger, whip, WMD (weapons of mass distraction :wubby:)

[Vixynne Rose]

"Rabbi Shmuley Boteach wrote on Beliefnet recently that breastfeeding is unsexy and bad for your marriage. In fact, if you breastfeed your son? That's like committing adultery, because those breasts you're using? They belong to your husband."



Cannot take someone SO serious because they cannot use English correctly. Incomplete sentences, blah blah blah.

"Boteach" ?? Are we sure this isn't a satire site??

Here's the original article: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/194/story_19451_1.html

[La Femme Meow]

OK, reality check. There is a Rabbi Schmuly Boteach on Beliefnet who writes as "Rebbe with a Cause" and has a TV show where he counsels couples. From what I have seen of his writing, he is a compassionate somewhat-liberal-for-an-Orthodox Jew. The comments attributed to him on breastfeeding sound out of character.

Furthermore, a search of Beliefnet showed no comments at all on breastfeeding by Rabbie Boteach, although there was a report on Barbara Walters' disgust on viewing a woman breastfeeding on an airplane.

Storming the castle might be fun but I'll wait to see who really lives there.

[Vixynne Rose]

OK, reality check. There is a Rabbi Schmuly Boteach on Beliefnet who writes as "Rebbe with a Cause" and has a TV show where he counsels couples. From what I have seen of his writing, he is a compassionate somewhat-liberal-for-an-Orthodox Jew. The comments attributed to him on breastfeeding sound out of character.

Furthermore, a search of Beliefnet showed no comments at all on breastfeeding by Rabbie Boteach, although there was a report on Barbara Walters' disgust on viewing a woman breastfeeding on an airplane.

Storming the castle might be fun but I'll wait to see who really lives there.

Check out the article above, from Beliefnet, Femme...he seems to try not to blatantly offend, but he most certainly does say that breastfeeding can drive a wedge into a marriage...and on page 2 he goes on to say that he agrees with the old-time rabbis who held that a husband should not stare at his wife's vagina as she gives birth, because he may then come to see it as a mere birthing canal...thus jeopardizing his (I guess pretty fragile??) view of his wife as an erotic presence.
It's not the most inflammatory set of statements I've ever heard, but I sure as Sheol don't buy into 'em...
If someone's marriage is so dangerously close to failure that breastfeeding puts it over the edge, maybe the two people in question don't really stand much of a chance to start with. Just my tuppence.

[Jamianne]

Breasts are there to feed the child, not just to satisfy him. As a father, he'd rather not have his wife give their children every benefit that comes with breast-feeding becuase he thinks it's not sexy? Sounds like this guy needs to get over his own sexual hang-ups. Gah! :chomp:

*goes off to find torches and pitchforks*

[Selena]

OK, reality check. There is a Rabbi Schmuly Boteach on Beliefnet who writes as "Rebbe with a Cause"

I DID see an Oprah show where he was featured. Just a few month ago. But what I saw there does NOT ring true with the previous post about his theory.

I could be wrong.

I found, from what I saw, a jew who had some good ideas about how to raise children.


I did not see a racisit or someone who was controversial.

Perhaps I am wrong....

[Vixynne Rose]

I DID see an Oprah show where he was featured. Just a few month ago. But what I saw there does NOT ring true with the previous post about his theory.

I could be wrong.

I found, from what I saw, a jew who had some good ideas about how to raise children.


I did not see a racisit or someone who was controversial.

Perhaps I am wrong....
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/194/story_19451_1.html Peruse the article in question, then see what you think. This was written by him.

[Jazperia Silverlion]

I personally think the article--not the paraphrasing---makes sense. When a wife does go a bit overboard raising the kiddos it can make the body less erotic. And if your marriage is on the rocks over it---take a break to fix the problem. It's not as inflammatory as the paraphrased article makes it.

[Lady Anisette]

I hate to tell you this...

And I hope I explain this right......

But my best friend is a clinical psychologist and did much counselling of married couples. She agrees with the vaginal birth theory. Apparently there are many men -- not just rabbis spouting here -- who have a problem relating to their wives sexually once they have actually witnessed the vaginial birth. Not from up by the woman's head, but facing the vagina and watching the birth that way.

It is a phenomenom that occurs in some marriages. These men no longer see their wives as sexual beings and therefore no longer relate to them as such. But these same men don't realize or understand this issue. Or deny it. It even happened to my friend -- once she gave birth and he saw the down and dirty -- the father of her baby no longer wanted her sexually. At all.

Now my friend doesn't say this is right. She feels it has much to do with the separating of our sexual selves from, well, everything else. As a culture, we think in terms of sex and other. The two don't mix, unlike most other cultures where it is all integrated and one big happy thing...

She spent many many hours counselling these men to help them get back on track with their wives. Mind you, not all men are like this, many are open and can handle the fact that their wives vaginas are for more than sex.....

Imagine that.

[Alianne]

Okay, this is the text from the Rabbi's beliefnet article:

The science section of The New York Times recently featured a lengthy study on breast-feeding and its benefits. Breast-feeding, the study found, helps reduce the chances of infection, cold, diarrhea, illness, and even later childhood obesity. No one argues with any of these benefits, but what the report neglects to mention, and what I have personally witnessed when counseling couples, is how breast-feeding can come between a husband and wife.

One of the episodes of "Shalom in the Home" this season featured a young couple in Pennsylvania who were madly in love when they married, but had slowly drifted apart after the birth of two children. Indeed, a Harvard University study maintains that a couples' love life decreases by 74 percent in the first year after the birth of a child. Now, given that sex is nearly dead in the American bedroom anyway, with national sex rates in marriage figuring at about once a week, a three-quarters decrease means that sex takes place once every few months—sparse pickings indeed.

With this particular couple, the situation was even worse. Their sex life had died completely, and one of the main causes was the mother's obsession with breast-feeding well into the child's eleventh month. The baby was attached to his mother like a limb, and he even slept with her every night, consigning her husband to a different bedroom.

I told the mother that in being so devoted to her son, she had committed the cardinal sin of marriage, which is to put someone else before her spouse, even if that someone is your child. Furthermore, I said, her obsession had turned one of her most attractive body parts into a feeding station, an attractive cafeteria rather than a scintillating piece of flesh.

In my book "Kosher Adultery," I make the point that infidelity is primarily a sin of omission rather than commission. It is not the bad thing you do that destroys a marriage, but all the good that you fail to do, preoccupied as you are with a sinful relationship that diverts your attention away from your spouse. Similarly, with the example of breast-feeding, a wife who spends a year giving all her emotional and physical affection to the baby has left her marriage a barren wasteland, bereft of romance and affection.

Obviously, breast-feeding is not the same as carrying on an extramarital affair. But when a mother gives her breasts to her son and takes them away from her husband, the effect on the marriage can feel the same.

I am surprised that when scientists discuss all the benefits of breast-feeding, they neglect its most negative consequence. If breast-feeding gets in the way of the marriage—if it means that a husband and wife never go out on dates, or that the mother is so tired from always waking up with the baby that she has no energy to ever be intimate with her husband—the child will probably end up worse off, however many colds or bouts with diarrhea he now avoids.
______________________________

The point he's trying to make is that there has to be some *balance*.

And yes, there *are* women who latch their children to their breasts to the point of virtually ignoring their husbands.

In order to have a healthy family, you have to have a healthy *marriage*.

All the Rabbi is saying is 'make sure you pay attention to *both*'. Feed the baby, but also feed the marriage.

[Lavinia]

::WTF::
To quote my boyfriend "That's the dumbest bunch of bullsh*t I have ever heard!"
I think these men need to grow up themselves....

[Ysobelle]

Good G-d, folks-- read the article first! He picks a specific example of a woman who put all her energy into her child, and all but ignored her husband. That, he says, is bad for the marriage. He never says breastfeeding your child is adultery. He says replacing your husband in your marriage is bad, even if it's for your child.

And yeah, as Anisette says, there are some men who have problems seeing their wives as sexual beings once they become mothers. Yippee for marriage counseling.

[Lady Sarah]

Unfortunately...there's this thing called.....SEX!!! ::waggle::

If we could just do something about that...

:thinking:

we could, but forced sterilization is against the law IIRC.

and besides, stupidity isn't a crime... damnit.

[Lady Sarah]

"Rabbi Shmuley Boteach wrote on Beliefnet recently that breastfeeding is unsexy and bad for your marriage. In fact, if you breastfeed your son? That's like committing adultery, because those breasts you're using? They belong to your husband."

Cannot take someone SO serious because they cannot use English correctly. Incomplete sentences, blah blah blah.

"Boteach" ?? Are we sure this isn't a satire site??

Satire or not, I got news for this rabbi - my tits are on MY body and they belong to ME, not my husband, my fiance, my boyfriend or even God. I can do with them what I damned well please

[DoñaNina]

This makes me more and more scared of having kids, someday. :-(

[Ysobelle]

Really. Read the article. He was taken completely out of context. Truly.

[Rhonda_Melones]

Ya know, I have heard about this. They say when a woman has a baby the husbands sometimes get jealous and have problems because now the baby is the forefront of the woman's life. Sometimes the guy just needs to get a hobby and get a life but sometimes it's a woman who you know will have problems cutting the apron strings later on, seems to be especially with mothers and sons than mothers and daughters. As for watching the birth from ringside well, I could see how that could put someone off:-P I think the hubby wouldn't mind seeing the birth from that view but personally I rather have him up with me so I could break his fingers while I give the final push;)

[DoñaNina]

personally I rather have him up with me so I could break his fingers while I give the final push;)

That sounds comforting.:smile:

[Alianne]

Really. Read the article. He was taken completely out of context. Truly.

And it's not like anyone has to hunt for the article. I posted it in its entirety.

[surlywench]

For those of you whose eyes went :stunned: at the "church fires female Sunday School Teacher for being Female" thread, I give you:

Rabbi Says Breastfeeding is Adulterous (http://www.bloggingbaby.com/2006/08/17/breastfeeding-is-unsexy-and-ultimately-bad-for-your-marriage/)

Where are the torches and the pitchforks? I say it's time to storm the castle! Who's with me??

::fire::


VIX!!!
I'm really shocked!
Torches and Pitchforks?!
HELLO?!?!?!!
This is the 21st CENTURY!!!




we use NAPALM.......*eg*

[surlywench]

"I told the mother that in being so devoted to her son, she had committed the cardinal sin of marriage, which is to put someone else before her spouse, even if that someone is your child. Furthermore, I said, her obsession had turned one of her most attractive body parts into a feeding station, an attractive cafeteria rather than a scintillating piece of flesh."



You have to wonder, what was the husband doing all this time? Did he *NEVER* offer to feed the baby if she would be willing to pump? Did he otherwise engage with the child to give her a break?

Some women can't multitask, it's either the marriage or the kid until the kid is weaned. You can't explain to a hungry, crying baby that "sorry, can't feed you, daddy needs mommy too..." you can *say* it all you want, but an 11 month old can't understand what that means!

and the primary function of a breast *IS* a feeding station. The fact that men find them so scintillating is incidental, but also linked to the urge to procreate (deep, deep down...).

and he *is* saying that your kids shouldn't come before your spouse. sorry, my kids come first, and N feels the same way. He puts me before him, and I put him before me, so we've got each other covered.
It's a triangular relationship, rather than a pecking order...

and bless him, he watched Eowyn's emergence, and found it an amazing experience. he was the first person to see her. and believe me, it didn't have ANY effect on his sex drive.

rather than tell this woman that she was being sinful for breastfeeding so much, he should have given her the number to La Leche league and some good babysitters. She need the support to know that she *can* detatch from the baby, and a few nights out on the town! NOT a guilt trip about how she's a bad wife for not being sexually available to her husband and a bad mother for putting her child's needs (real or percieved) first.

while he probably isn't some chauvanistic asshat, he certainly needs a lesson in tact, and could also use a refresher on just how harried those first few months can be.....

[Alianne]

At 11 months, a baby can certainly be starting the process of drinking expressed milk from a cup. At 11 months, the average baby isn't feeding every 2 hours. The example the Rabbi cites gives a specific illustration of a woman who appears to refuse to put the baby down, will not let the baby sleep without her (and not even in a family bed situation -- she booted her husband out of the bed).

We're not talking about those 'first few harried months', where this would be more the norm. We're talking about a child almost a year old, closer to toddlerhood than helpless infancy, after all.

The Rabbi is speaking from a perspective which may seem a bit unusual religiously if you're not Jewish. Judaism has *always* had a very strong element of praising the sensual, sexual aspects of marriage -- think the 'Songs of Solomon', for example. Unlike other religions that appear sexually repressive, Judaism revels in marital sensuality -- enjoying each other's bodies for their own sake (and not just for the purpose of reproduction) and for pleasuring your husband or wife. As much as a nursing child's needs are important, from a Judaic point of view, paying attention to spousal desires and being part of a sexual partnership is also important.

It's always been emphasized that (as I mentioned in an earlier post) that to have a happy family, you first must have a happy marriage. Happy, successful marriages take hard work to achieve. If you are sacrificing your marriage for *anything*, even if that 'anything' is your child, then you end up doing your child/ren an injustice because you risk the marriage and the entire family unit by doing so.

He's using a specific example of one woman to illustrate that there has to be *balance*. As a mom, an 11 month old baby does *not* need to be attached to Mommy and her breasts 24/7. That baby should be starting to learn self-eating skills -- drinking from a cup, using a spoon, eating baby foods and age-appropriate finger foods. The baby should be put down to explore, to play -- to begin to interact with the world around him or her.

If Mommy refuses to put the child down under the umbrella of breastfeeding, she's not only doing her marriage an injustice, but she's also doing the *child* an injustice because the child isn't getting enough opportunity to explore, learn and grow into a curious, engaging toddler (and beyond).

[surlywench]

Yes, and the point I'm trying to get across is that perhaps she lacks the mental and emotional resources to DO JUST THAT. The point is that referring her to such resources to provide her with a support network to help her detach from the baby and help get her back to being a woman and not just a human milk jug would have been a better course than telling her that her behavior was sinful.
Who knows? Her husband may have elected to sleep elsewhere, rather than her "booting" him out.

As I said, not every woman comes equipped with an "okay, I GOTTA put this kid down!" switch. Especially if she has little to no experience with babies. Mothering is a learned skill, and sometimes you need someone to give you permission to pull back a little bit. There are women who simply cannot disengage b/c they feel that it makes them a bad parent, the extremity of her behavior certainly suggests that there may be other issues at work in her head, and perhaps even her relationship.

What I'm upset by is his tatic, not his viewpoint. This woman needed compassion and understanding, and a guiding hand to some real parenting help and marriage counseling, not a guilt trip and judgement.

[Buxom Wench]

As I've said since the day I had my first child...

I didn't see an instruction manual fall out along with the infant.

[Selena]

As I've said since the day I had my first child...

I didn't see an instruction manual fall out along with the infant.


Rob-- and I love ya for it... that just cracked me up.

but you're right.

And I wish it would "fall out along with the infant" with every single birth!!!

[surlywench]

I'm for the "materializes at bedside" ....'cause I don't know about you ladies, but I couldn't have crammed one milimeter more into my belly than I did!!!!
(12 lbs. of baby was *WAY* more than enuf!!)

[Buxom Wench]

I'm for the "materializes at bedside" ....'cause I don't know about you ladies, but I couldn't have crammed one milimeter more into my belly than I did!!!!
(12 lbs. of baby was *WAY* more than enuf!!)

EGADS Woman!.... that's just under BOTH my daughters, together! :stunned:

[surlywench]

EGADS Woman!.... that's just under BOTH my daughters, together! :stunned:

Yeah, I'm a little scared to have another...they're supposed to get bigger every time!!!

I don't think I could handle that.....

[Buxom Wench]

Yeah, I'm a little scared to have another...they're supposed to get bigger every time!!!

I don't think I could handle that.....

Mine were 6 lb. 8 oz. and then 7 lb. 0 oz. (and I only gained 24 lb. each time)

If I were you, I'd make your hubby carry the next one. :wink:

[surlywench]

really? that makes me feel better about it....the mid wives weren't too convinced Eowyn was a fluke, me? I'm *all* over the fluke theory...


and I'm waaaaaaaaay ahead of you on that one...I gained 55 lbs. in nine months....between boobs and belly....he is SO taking the next one for the team!!!!

[Ysobelle]

Mine were 6 lb. 8 oz. and then 7 lb. 0 oz. (and I only gained 24 lb. each time)

If I were you, I'd make your hubby carry the next one. :wink:


I would fucking PAY to see that!

And I don't agree with a Rabbi across the board every time, but I think he was just saying that you MUST have balance to keep a family going, and that this one woman was going overboard. Just because she wants to breastfeed forever and a day doesn't mean she should. He used the example just to make that point: balance, balance, balance.

[surlywench]

and I totally agree with the need for balance.

but I just don't think that the woman in question *wanted* to be a baby bottle. maybe she did, but if she was speaking to the rabbi, maybe there was something inside her going "hey....maybe hubby has a point...maybe you *are* using the bf as an excuse..." you know? Or maybe she thought the rabbi would back her up. It's hard to see what the situation really was, since that isn't the focus of the piece.

it's his method of addressing it that bothers me, really. a healthy marriage/relationship is extremely important whether their are kids involved or not. I just don't see how telling a woman with some other rather more pressing emotional issues that her behavior is sinful is going to help get her turned in the right direction.


*LOL* yeah, so would I, but only if he has a 12 lber too! Any smaller, and it's, well, I don't see what the big deal is about....and bigger and it's well, I had a 13 lber and I did great! bit of a catch 22 situaton, there!!

[Alianne]

In reading the original article, except that the Rabbi refers to keeping the baby attached to mom 24/7 as an 'obsession', I don't get where the whole 'other pressing emotional issues' is coming from as fact.

I think maybe the best thing to do is wait, watch the episode where this couple is featured and see what's what.

As far as maybe mom doesn't know to put the baby down thing...I dunno. I mean, my kids didn't come with owners' manuals, either....but having children didn't drain my *brains* away, either. I had *major* difficulties with nursing #1, and I at least had enough 'smarts' to ask the pediatrician, who was able to provide direction and resources.....

[surlywench]

In reading the original article, except that the Rabbi refers to keeping the baby attached to mom 24/7 as an 'obsession', I don't get where the whole 'other pressing emotional issues' is coming from as fact.
...


She's unable to detach herself from the kid either due to mental or emotional issues (either doesn't know *how* to wean the baby or just doesn't feel *right* about doing so), her marriage is falling apart, and she may well feel as though she's failing as a wife and a mother since she can't make everyone happy.

It's great that she wants to breastfeed for so long, but maybe she just doesn't realize that she can wean the baby onto expressed milk. Also, since she's been pretty much glued to the kid, the baby may not have any other self-soothing techniques *except* nursing, thus crying out of frustration when mom puts him down.

And just because many of us here (thank heaven!!) would have the brain to talk to the pediatrician or *someone* about what to do when we've got issues and questions doesn't mean that everyone else in the world is equipped to do so. Many women feel like they're simply supposed to 'know' how to be a mother, and are afraid to ask for help or advice b/c they don't want to be criticized and seen as a bad parent. It's silly to us, but women *do* feel that way.
We can't judge others by 'well, I did', when we haven't walked that proverbial mile in their shoes.

What channel does the show run on, and I wonder if my local market carries it....hmmm...off to find out!!

[Alianne]

What channel does the show run on, and I wonder if my local market carries it....hmmm...off to find out!!

"Shalom In the Home" runs on TLC. I don't recall the day and time (it's currently off schedule awaiting the new season), but the info should be on TLC's website.

[surlywench]

kewl! thanks!