woman faces fine/prison for aiding illegal immigrants

[surlywench]

http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/3733041.html

IOWA CITY - An Iowa City native faces up to a $500,000 fine and fifteen years in prison for her work on the U.S.-Mexico border.

"No one deserves to die the way people are dying to come to this country," Shanti Sellz said.

Sellz volunteered with an organization that provides medical help to people near the border.

"A perfectly healthy person can go from standing to barely able to crawl within hours without adequate water and shade," Sellz said.

Last year, Sellz was bringing a group of injured immigrants to a U.S. hospital. Then, border patrol officials stopped her vehicle and arrested her.

The government says she violated federal law by transporting illegal immigrants. She claims her actions were legal.

Sellz's mother can't believe what her daughter is going through.

"I don't trust our country anymore. I don't trust the way people think anymore, but I keep hoping this is going to have a good ending," Susan Rogusky, Sellz’s mother, said.

Sellz now speaks about her experience to groups like these seniors before she goes on trial.

"I just admire people who have that kind of compassion and I'm grateful there are people speaking up about this really difficult issue," Ruth Clement said.

Sellz plans to fight the government's charges because she believes she hasn't done anything wrong.

In recent months, the U.S. government has placed more resources into patrolling the border.

President Bush says illegal immigrants are harming the citizenship process for everyone.

*********************


I don't know enough about immigration law, but if they were already over the border, and needed humanitarian medical aide, aren't we supposed to treat them? and *then* send them back?

does anyone know for sure what the line would be here? thanks!!

[LdyJhawk]

I'm torn, really. If I have an emergency and get taken to an ER, I'm still expected to pay..

If they come here they get free medical care in an emergency and shipped back. Hmmm..pays to be illegal I guess

[Rhonda_Melones]

That's what I'd like to know, if they'd crossed the border already aren't doctors, nurses etc. supposed to treat them if they're in a life and death situation? Now if she transported them across that's different but if they're already here I didn't think she'd be allowed (or even in good conscience) to just leave them lying on the ground etc. Again, I think I'd like more info on the story before I can say either way.

[Dmitri]

If I come upon a criminal, I know they are a criminal (or even don't), and I provide aid to that criminal, I become an accomplice.

That is the LAW.

She broke the law because she helped those in the act of breaking the law.

Cut and dry IMHO.

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

If she wanted to help them, she should have driven them back to a Mexican hospital.

[surlywench]

If I come upon a criminal, I know they are a criminal (or even don't), and I provide aid to that criminal, I become an accomplice.

That is the LAW.

She broke the law because she helped those in the act of breaking the law.

Cut and dry IMHO.
If she's just trolling the back passes looking for people, then yes...but....
It gets a little murkier when the aide is medical in nature. If it's a life or death situation, even military doctors will try and save someone who may or may not be an enemy. If the person is incoherent when you find them, how are you to know? Medics are sworn to do no harm, and to help those who need it.
What about the illegal immigrants who cross over specifically to give birth? Doesn't that automatically make the baby a U.S citizen?

Does anyone know if the federal immigration laws are webbed? i'd like to see if anything specific is mentioned. I'm off to google!

[Eric McTavish]

If I come upon a criminal, I know they are a criminal (or even don't), and I provide aid to that criminal, I become an accomplice.

That is the LAW.

She broke the law because she helped those in the act of breaking the law.

Cut and dry IMHO.

Yes BUT under some laws if you come upon a criminal (in dire need...say medical assistance...dieing etc...) and you do not offer aid (render 1st aid...transport to hospital) you are libale for that persons death by not rendering aid.

[Buxom Wench]

Yes BUT under some laws if you come upon a criminal (in dire need...say medical assistance...dieing etc...) and you do not offer aid (render 1st aid...transport to hospital) you are libale for that persons death by not rendering aid.
Basically.... you're damned if you do, damned if you don't! :roll:

[Torra]

Basically.... you're damned if you do, damned if you don't! :roll:

I wonder if that extends to Good Samaritan laws. If you don't know the person is a criminal and needs aid, I would think you'd be able to make a good case for your defense under those.

[Rhonda_Melones]

What about the illegal immigrants who cross over specifically to give birth? Doesn't that automatically make the baby a U.S citizen?

Does anyone know if the federal immigration laws are webbed? i'd like to see if anything specific is mentioned. I'm off to google!

It used to be but I think they changed it a few years ago because so many people were doing that. From what I understand they'll still send the parents back baby and all if they catch them.

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

What about the illegal immigrants who cross over specifically to give birth? Doesn't that automatically make the baby a U.S citizen?
Unfortunately, yes.

[Gemdrite]

Basically.... you're damned if you do, damned if you don't! :roll:

It's the American Way!

[daBaroness]

Good samaritan laws wouldn't apply to this woman because this wasn't just a chance meeting of someone in need of medical assistance. The article clearly states this woman volunteers with an organization that provides medical assistance to Mexican citizens near the border. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it's apparent to a blind person that the reason the Mexican citizens are near the border and in need of medical assistance is because they're without proper documentation to legally cross and their chosen method of trying to cross the border has rendered them sick or injured BECAUSE it's illegal.

I'm not against humanitarian aid - but c'mon folks, we all wear big boy and girl pants and know that these people are making the choice to take the risks associated with crossing the border into the U.S. illegally. Organizations like the one this woman volunteers with have their own agendas and I'm sure truly believe they're helping people - but IMHO their real agenda is to assist people in crossing the border. They view themselves as a sort of modern day Underground Railroad. But regardless of how they view themselves and how ultruistic they believe their mission to be - they're aiding in the commission of a federal crime in the U.S. and justifying it by waving the white flag of medical assistance. If the Mexican citizens weren't choosing to take extreme measures to enter the U.S., there would be no need for these organizations in the first place.

I'm all about being compassionate, humanitarian and the overall global concept of being our brothers' and sisters' keepers - but on this issue I'm steadfast in my belief that in a self-described nation of immigrants, where most of our forebearers "earned" their U.S. citizenship, it flies in the face of that legacy and that priviledge that thousands of uneducated, unskilled, non-English-speaking people are flooding into our country illegally. They're purposely bearing children here in an attempt to become legal, they're straining and abusing our social services and quite frankly - at the risk of sounding like a racial purist or something - they're changing our social structure.

Personally, I'm freakin' sick and tired of having to listen to, "for English, press 1, por Espanol, presse numero dos" every time I call somewhere with an automated switchboard (another pet peeve). I'm tired of having to read through instructions, directions, menus, etc. in English and Spanish. I may be a snob, but dammit, the U.S. has, since it's founding had English as it's official language. Immigrants who've sought a better life have made it a point of pride to learn the language and earn citizenship. In my estimation - all of the illegals are just slapping them and us in the face - thumbing their noses at us, waving the Mexican flag in our faces and reaping the benefits of living in the U.S. without paying the price.

Am I mad at individual illegals? Sure I am. I'm resentful because they refuse to learn and speak the language and do it with impunity knowing once they're here, their odds of being sent back are limited. But I'm angrier at the Mexican government, who refuses to do anything constructive to better the lives of it's own citizens and welcomes the flight of the poor, the illiterate, the criminal - to the United States where they no longer pose a problem for Mexico.

I'm angry with our own politicians who've wheeled and dealed with the Mexican government, and other governments for their own gain and left we hard-working, tax-paying citizens to foot the bill and deal with the problems of a growing illegal immigrant population. I'm angry with U.S. businesses who find legal loopholes and ways to employ illegals - paying them far less than their American counterparts, providing no benefits and effectively lowering the wage table and availability of jobs for our own citizens. Big cities and small rural burgs throughout the Southwest and Midwest (and elsewhere) are sagging under the weight of fast-growing enclaves of often illiterate, uneducated, unskilled people to fill the greedy needs of American businesses and industries.

I don't know all the answers - I only have concerns, questions and like most U.S. citizens, a growing contempt for the Mexicanizing of my native land. Perhaps if many of the legal loopholes for employers of illegals were closed, if the rules for providing social services, automatic birth citizenship and other "carrots" were changed, perhaps it wouldn't be so temping for people to risk everything to cross the border.

I just know for the first time in my 50 years, I'm feeling a growing resentment towards a single subgroup of our society and definitely towards all the accommodations being made for them

[Torra]

Baroness, you made the one of the best arguments I've seen for this outside of political articles (and my opinions on those vary since they're mostly so self-serving nowadays). I strongly agree with what you've said. Here's a conundrum for that: supposing one meets a person who is Mexican on the US side of the border in need of medical aid. Does one help said person without knowing for sure his or her nationality because they are in the states, or if the nature of the cause for needing aid is suspicious, do we turn them in somewhere because they sustained injuries as a result of crossing the border, ie taking them to a police station where they could be taken by officers of the law to a hospital if deemed necessary?

[daBaroness]

Torra - good question. My own actions would probably be to get medical help through traditional channels (dialing 911 mostly likely) rather than trying to render help myself by loading a sick or injured person into my personal vehicle and driving to a doctor or hospital. I would do that with anyone for several reasons, first being I'm not a medical professional and I wouldn't risk doing the wrong thing for an injured or sick person other than giving assurances and comfort. Secondly - it puts the person and the "incident" formally in the system where people who have positional power to gather information and make decisions regarding the sick or injured person - and I, as an individual don't assume responsibility that is not mine to assume.

My guess is the woman in the story and the organization with which she is affiliated tries to circumvent proper channels because they know once an illegal is in the system they will ultimately be returned to Mexico. It would also be my assumption that, except in extreme cases they can't handle, they're providing makeshift medical attention themselves rather than taking the people they find to proper hospitals or clinics BECAUSE they'll then be identified as illegals. Frankly, being the cynic I am these days, I'm guessing their main goal is to shepherd illegals across the border under the guise of giving medical assistance, and if my assumption is even remotely true, then this woman should indeed have been arrested, IMHO.

I don't believe that we're an uncharitable, heartless lot - were that the case, I wouldn't think we'd have the vast problem of illegal immigration we currently face. So my personal opinion is that I would definitely question the ultruism of these so-called rescue groups. Everyone these days has a scam and every group panders to the tender heart in most Americans and exploits that charity and compassion for their own selfish ends. Personally, rather than hanging individuals with prosecution, I'd be doing some investigating of these "humanitarian" groups - how they're funded, how they recruit and what their REAL mission is.

[DoñaNina]

You know, as a Hispanic American, I'm getting pretty tired of being blamed for crap I didn't do.

I never asked for anything to be put in Spanish instead of English.

You think that all of the European immigrants who came to the US spoke English when they first got here? I know there's bad people in every group who won't learn English, but there's plenty who do. I'm not saying illigal immigration is a good thing, but what about all of the legal immigrants who are still getting shit just because they happen to be Hispanic? The hell did I ever do to you? I'm sooo sorry I went to college and make more money than your precious son, who's forefathers founded the country, and all that crap. Maybe if his dad worked as hard as mine, came to this country legally with FIVE DOLLARS and NO FUCKING ENGLISH, you would know what it's like to suffer, and stop fucking complaining because some newbs are flooding your server.

Oh gee, my bad. My mom came to this country as a nanny for ten American children without speaking English. I'm so sorry she had to learn the language later in life. I'm so sorry that we're successful through hardships. I'm so fucking sorry that no matter what we do, we get blamed for having dark skin and going to work every day, so your precious lineage can eat off of clean dishes and look at nice landscaping while they're getting high on weed and dropping out of high school. Please don't let them succumb to the evils of another culture. They're far too busy mooching off of welfare with their twelve kids and belly button piercings at fourteen.

/sarcasm off

Seriously though, stop blaming the evil Hispanics. The illigal immigrants, fine. Sure. They broke the law. Okay, punish them. But leave the rest of us out of it. Just because we fall under the brown category doesn't make us all the same.

[daBaroness]

Dona, I'm sorry you've chosen to take on the burden of personalizing this issue. No one, myself included, is singling out any one individual, family or group of people and heaping blame on them. It's merely a fact that because of geographic proximity, a predominance of the illegal immigrants in the U.S. are from Mexico and/or Central/South America. I would venture a guess that it is that proximity which makes immigrating here from Mexico or Central & South America or Cuba or Haiti so worth the risk for so many people. Were we located on the continent of Africa - I'm guessing we'd be facing the same challenges, just with a different group of people.

If you read my first post, I spoke of how we are a country of immigrants - and most of all our forebearers dealt with similar hardships and struggles, no matter their country of origin. The reason they came here in the first place was because conditions in their land of origin were bad - it's the reason people of all races, creeds, colors and religions still come here. I'm not blaming anyone for wanting to immigrate here to seek a better life - except for indiginous people, none of us would be here had it not been for someone in our family history who sought those very things.

I just believe that for very practical reasons, as well as mere pride that it is not only unfair, but insulting to everyone who has pursued (and achieved)these goals through proper channels that those who refuse to follow the prescribed path by would be rewarded with amnesty and citizenship for breaking the law. I would think it would be particularly insulting to members of the Hispanic community who, like your family, have worked so hard, followed the rules and surely paid the price for their citizenship - only to be lumped into the same category as those who purposely break the law or have no regard for it.

My frustration is not with the individuals seeking a better life - it's with the gross mismanagement, philosophies and corruption of governmental bureaucracies that created the problems in the first place - including our own. My frustration is with businesses in this country who knowingly get around the laws meant to protect our economy and our own workers by hiring undocumented immigrants through temp agencies - knowing if INS comes in and illegals are found, the responsibility falls on the temp agency, not the actual employer. The immigrant workers get less pay and no benefits because they're not going blow the whistle - so the temp agencies and the employers make out like bandits while immigrants get treated like crap and then must rely on taxpayer-provided services to take care of many of their medical needs.

As for becoming a bi-lingual country - I still stand by my dislike for this trend. Again - I'm not blaming anyone personally - but if you want to be offended and take that burden on, that's certainly your perogative. Your family and so many thousands of others similar to yours aren't part of the problem. In the for-profit business sector, marketing bilingually just makes good sense and enhances the bottom lines of companies that do so. But in terms of taxpayer- supported services that have been forced to provide bilingual services because their populations of non-English-speaking clients have virtually exploded, I don't think I'm out-of-line in my belief that legal immigrants who can be freely hired by businesses are less likely to need publically-funded services than illegals who have no access to insurance and don't make competitive wages because of their status.

My beef isn't with anyone who is a legal, naturalized or in-the-process-of-becoming citizen of the U.S. - or with any of their forebearers. My gripe IS with anyone of any nationality, race, color, creed, religion or gender who seeks to cheat and abuse the system on the backs of others' hard work and sacrifices. While the process to becoming a legal U.S. citizen is admitedly often long and painstaking - millions have done it legally and earned the sense of pride they feel in so doing.

The great and glorious thing about being an American is the right to have and express our own opinions. I personally believe in doing so, I am personally obligated not to step on the rights of others while expressing my own. I regret, Dona, that you take so much of this personally when I have gone to great lengths to be very clear that I not lump everyone of a similar background into one big heap and make sweeping generalizations. The only condemnation I purposely express is to those individuals who choose to knowingly break the law and refuse to take responsibility for their (individual) actions. It is not my intention to make you or anyone else feel as they have to defend the choices and actions of an entire group.

I don't expect or want you to defend the actions of every Hispanic on the face of the Earth, just as I would never take on the burden of responsibility for the actions of every other 50-year-old woman or every other WASP or every other redhead (oh lord would that be a job!).

I still stand by my original opinions, but I hope I've clarified some points and adequately explained I'm only condeming the truly guilty.

[DoñaNina]

I'm sorry, I wasn't complaining to you personally. My rant was for all of those who DO lump us all together.

However, I'm still a little weirded out by people being offended by the fact that America is taking a differen't turn. And by different, I mean more like it was before. The US is a young country. Before it was the US, it was made up of various tribes. A lot of the US was Mexico at one point. Many Native Americans (and Central Americans, for that matter) were nomadic, and roamed through the many nations. All of a sudden, bam. The Spanish. Then the other European countries take over, and make the USA. That's awesome. They made a new country, but not that long ago. You have to expect change is going to be a part of this nation, seeing as how it was founded by immigrants from accross the Atlantic ocean. Isn't it natural to expect the connecting countries to blend a little?

Just look at Europe. There are a lot of Africans in Spain, why? Because it's right on top of Africa! You can expect them to get offended when languages and cultures begin to blend. That's why there's so much beautiful Muslim arcitecture in Spain. Same thing with England and France. And Germany and France. And Italy and Greece. Why do you think the Roman gods are so similar to the Greek ones?

The US is going to become more Hispanic, because it's natural. There's no society on Earth that is set in stone.

[Dmitri]

Nobody blames legal hispanics... most are so happy to come to this country and make a better life for themselves. Many go thru terrible adversity to get here LEGALLY... When Vel's father was in Spain trying to immegrate to the US, that dirty fuck Castro put her mother and her grandmother in a work camp (see concentration camp). No sleep, propaganda bellowed out of loudspeakers all day and nite, calling them traitors to the cause and worse... their privacy ripped from their. their humanity stolen... for Two fucking years...


But they perservered. Why? because of a better life for themselves and their children.

Did they demand ATMs in Español? Nope! Listen to Vel speak you'd never know english was her second language. But how do you think it makes her parents feel that some of these illegals might get amnesty? Might just get allowed to stay. They followed the rules and were beaten down for it and these fuckers waltz across the border and break the law and get citizenship for the trouble!?!

Let's just say Spanish has some of the coolest curse words...

ANY LAW ABIDING, LEGAL HISPANIC IMMGRANT SHOULD BE FUMING AND SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER AT THE THOUGHT OF AMENSTY FOR ILLEGALS! Not rallying for Hispanic rights...

You're not Hispanic anymore, fucker... You're American...

Here we speak english... Or rather our version of it. Speak you native tongue, god love ya, but learn to function in an english speaking society... If I moved to Japan, I'd HAVE to learn Japanese... period...

[Dmitri]

There are a lot of Africans in Spain, why? Because it's right on top of Africa!

No... It's because the African Moores conquered Spain and were in charge for the better part of 800 years... Most people of the Iberian penninsula before that were blond blue-eyed celts...

Same thing happened to Sicily...

[Eric McTavish]

Here we speak english... Or rather our version of it. Speak you native tongue, god love ya, but learn to function in an english speaking society... If I moved to Japan, I'd HAVE to learn Japanese... period...

Same in Germany, to immigrate to Germany you HAVE to pass Volkschool... a Language training school where your immersed into the German language...untill you pass that school (at which time you WILL speak German fluently) you are not elegiable to even apply for a job!

[DoñaNina]

No... It's because the African Moores conquered Spain and were in charge for the better part of 800 years... Most people of the Iberian penninsula before that were blond blue-eyed celts...

Same thing happened to Sicily...

Yes, because it's right on top of Africa! What were they gonna conquer, Canada?

And there are still a lot of Celts in Spain, mostly towards the North. Their music is very Irish sounding.

And yeah, I agree with you, but honestly, I don't know any Spanish speaking people who ever asked for ATMs in Spanish. I know my parents never whined about it. I don't know who did, but they're making the rest of us look bad.

Except in big cities, where there's a lot of tourists. That, I can understand. The ATMs are usually in tons of languages, in DC.

[Dmitri]

Vel put it best:

"Busniesses offer language services as a nicety...it shouldnt be expected. My folx recently called aol's spanish line to fix a pc problem...while they speak perfect english, it was much easier for them to understand the instructions in spanish.

However, I am appalled by ppl who come here & expect to never have to learn the language. I am appalled by my godparents who've been here 30+ yrs & can't have a conversation with an english speaker becuz they've been ensconced in little havana. I think if ur gonna have a little anything (chinatown, little italy, etc.) that's fine, but u had better know english becuz this is friggin america. You can have ur little slice of your country, but make it available to ALL of us to share, or go home."

[Leyla]

Personally, I'm freakin' sick and tired of having to listen to, "for English, press 1, por Espanol, presse numero dos" every time I call somewhere with an automated switchboard (another pet peeve). I'm tired of having to read through instructions, directions, menus, etc. in English and Spanish. I may be a snob, but dammit, the U.S. has, since it's founding had English as it's official language.

Um actually, the United States doesn't have an official language, and it never has had an official language. Some states (http://www.proenglish.org/issues/offeng/states.html) have made English the official STATE language, but our nation has yet to declare an official language.

And I don't think Donas rant was any more out of place than those that choose to rail at her comments regarding Gypsies despite how often she said, "I know they aren't all like that." Seems people here are using the same sort of "broad brush stroke" comments regarding people who share her heritage and trying to pass it off with the "well yeah, not everyone is like that." :roll: She has just as much right to be offended when people DO actually make the comments for all spanish speakers, and offensive comments have been made here and on other threads.

[daBaroness]

Dmitri - we've got to stop agreeing like this or lord knows what will happen to the Universe as it tries to right itself! :rofl:

[Holly]

Leyla-
What i am finding intersting is that you are defending somone who is feeling what it is like to be on the OTHER side of her arguement.

Donanina-
how does it feel to be under that big fat paint brush?

[LdyJhawk]

Vel put it best:

"Busniesses offer language services as a nicety...it shouldnt be expected. My folx recently called aol's spanish line to fix a pc problem...while they speak perfect english, it was much easier for them to understand the instructions in spanish.

However, I am appalled by ppl who come here & expect to never have to learn the language. I am appalled by my godparents who've been here 30+ yrs & can't have a conversation with an english speaker becuz they've been ensconced in little havana. I think if ur gonna have a little anything (chinatown, little italy, etc.) that's fine, but u had better know english becuz this is friggin america. You can have ur little slice of your country, but make it available to ALL of us to share, or go home."



I agree! No for serious, I do. I know people who came here legally yes, but they can't speak a word of english after about 20 years and they can't teach their kids in any language but their native tongue which perpetuates a cycle. When the people in my family came here they did so and they learned english or they failed. No one was going to translate sale signs for them and put a mcdonald's menu in 3 other languages. If you want to keep your heritage FINE but please make an effort to at least function in an english language society. I know people who just moved here from other countries for jobs who speak better english than people who have come here and lived here for many many years from non-english speaking nations. They considered it a sign of respect to learn the language (albiet unofficial) of their new home.

I don't believe for a moment that everyone who doesn't speak english is an illegal alien. I don't think everyone who doesn't speak english has been here for 30 years and is just being stubborn, but it's becoming a sad trend that there are people who simply refuse to try and then get upset when no one goes out of their way to accomodate them. I would not expect all of france/germany/the netherlands (bad example..but still) to suddenly flip to all english because I was there...

Let's be fair, my friend had to try for over a year just to get a permit to work in Holland...and before she CAN work she must pass a basic proficiency in the language course. She MUST speak dutch or she cannot stay and be a citizen.

[Gemdrite]

Um actually, the United States doesn't have an official language, and it never has had an official language. Some states (http://www.proenglish.org/issues/offeng/states.html) have made English the official STATE language, but our nation has yet to declare an official language.

Which, for some reason, I find sadly amusing. We want a patriotic country, we talk about standing together and being a giant melting pot...but we won't even have a national language. How are we supposed to unite under one flag, live as one country, and share national pride if we are constantly segregating ourselves. We aren't a melting pot at all. We are a tossed salad, if anything.

[WenchLadyKate]

All I have to say is, I had a stopover in Puerto Rico. I learned a few key phrases I thought might come up, even though at the airport, it's easy enough to find someone to speak English. Basically, I learned "what time is it", "where is the bathroom" and "where is gate #?"...

Sure, I asked the english speaking girl at the gift shop if they took american money yea, but Hell, I tried to do it en Espanol... (in my defense, it was a really bad flight and I took 2 tranqs...)

[Alianne]

Seems people here are using the same sort of "broad brush stroke" comments regarding people who share her heritage and trying to pass it off with the "well yeah, not everyone is like that." :roll: She has just as much right to be offended when people DO actually make the comments for all spanish speakers, and offensive comments have been made here and on other threads.

The difference is that da Baroness made it *very* clear from the start that she was *not* talking about all immigrants, let alone those who came here legally from Spanish speaking countries. She was very clearly discussing *illegal* immigrants, and nothing else but. A subset of the conversation was regarding those who have come here (legally or not) who refuse to learn English and expect our government, which may not have English as it's "official" language, has been clearly a country whose primary language is English. Two specific discussions, two specific topics.

I don't see how that can be seen as a 'broad brush stroke' at all. Never at any time did she say or imply 'all Hispanics are X, Y or Z'.

[Capt. Stamina]

Which, for some reason, I find sadly amusing. We want a patriotic country, we talk about standing together and being a giant melting pot...but we won't even have a national language. How are we supposed to unite under one flag, live as one country, and share national pride if we are constantly segregating ourselves. We aren't a melting pot at all. We are a tossed salad, if anything.

Ah, you now understand ‘multiculturalism’. The ‘PC’ crowds are the ones advocating that no matter where you came from, you have the ‘right’ to live just as you lived in the ‘old’ country. It’s not ‘PC’ for you to have to lean English, and anyone that tells you otherwise is just being a bigot and racist.

[Capt. Stamina]

The Media Research Center has an interesting article:

How The Broadcast Networks Promote Illegal Immigration

http://www.mrc.org/SpecialReports/2006/sum/sum082806.asp

In summary:

■ Advocates of opening a wider path to citizenship were almost twice as likely to speak in news stories as advocates of stricter immigration control. Advocates for amnesty and guest-worker programs drew 504 soundbites in the study period, compared to just 257 for tighter border control. (Sixty-nine soundbites were neutral). On the days of pro-illegal-alien rallies, their critics nearly disappeared from the screen. For instance, on the night of April 10, the soundbite count on the three evening newscasts and ABC’s Nightline was 43 to 2 in favor of the protesters. When the debate shifted to Capitol Hill in May, coverage grew more balanced.

■ While conservative labels were common, liberal labels were rarely or never used. In the study period, reporters referred to "conservatives" or "conservative" groups 89 times, most intensely during legislative debate in May, when President Bush was presented as having to "appease" his "conservative" base. NBC’s Matt Lauer even referred to Bush’s base as the "far right." By contrast, the "liberal" label was used only three times – all of them by ABC. CBS and NBC never used the word, even as hard-left protest organizers described the House bill on public radio as full of "horrendous and macabre clauses, fascist clauses."

■ While protests centered on underlining the vital role illegal aliens play in the American economy, the burdens of illegal immigration in added government costs or crime were barely covered. While the networks poured out their air time to the sympathetic stories of hard-working immigrant families, only six out of 320 stories mentioned studies that illegal aliens cost more to governments than they provide in tax dollars. Only six stories gave a mention to the problem of the cost or threat of criminal aliens.

■ The networks have not dropped the word "illegal" in favor of "undocumented" immigrants, although some reporters struggled to adopt clumsy liberal-preferred terminology. Groups like the National Association of Hispanic Journalists have urged their colleagues to never use the word "illegal," but the word was still more than five times more common than "undocumented." In 320 stories, there were 381 uses of the word "illegal," and 73 uses of "undocumented." But some reporters struggled to please: NBC’s Kevin Tibbles actually referred to protests by "those who critics call illegals."
The report concludes with recommendations for a more balanced picture in network news coverage of the immigration debate.

[DameGoode]

My grandmother was always angry at her father (for more than one reason) for not teaching her to speak German like the adults in the family. He told her and her brothers, "No! You are an American! You will speak English and go to school"

Her sister-in-law was almost denied entry and citzenship because she had 1 too many cavities in her mouth! She was from Ireland.

Now, I'm sure everyone has family stories like this, but let's try to keep in perspective. Everyone (races, cultures, religions) have had issues. Let's not forget the millions of Jewish people who applied for visas to come to the US to get away from Hitler that were DENIED. Pretty much condemming them to death, literally.

But I don't understand the sense of entitlement some people seem to display.

[DoñaNina]

Ah, you now understand ‘multiculturalism’. The ‘PC’ crowds are the ones advocating that no matter where you came from, you have the ‘right’ to live just as you lived in the ‘old’ country. It’s not ‘PC’ for you to have to lean English, and anyone that tells you otherwise is just being a bigot and racist.

The problem isn't that most Hispanic people refuse to learn English. Sure, some do. But nobody EVER asked for everything to be dual language. Companies did that so that they could make more money by appealing to a growing population. All of a sudden, everything is half Spanish half English. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. While I agree, people should learn English to come to the US, is it that much of a horrible thing that things are dual language? If you go to Canada, everything is required to be dual language. It's not like another language choice is hurting you. Now, if a place doesn't speak English, sure. That's bad. But if they're giving the option? Don't most people have to take a foreign language in high school, anyway? Haven't we already discovered that learning another language not only makes you more educated, but helps with learning your own language better?

I can see why people feel offended if an immigrant refuses to speak English. The problem I have is with people complaining that the US is losing it's culture, losing it's heritage and all that... when really, this country IS new, it WAS founded by invading European settlers, and it's much easier for people to take a brisk walk than to sail accross the Atlantic ocean. Geographically speaking, the cultures are going to mix eventually.

[Mighty Rontor]

We need walls, armed sentries, dogs, electric fences and mine fields. Bottom line: Mexicans that come to the U.S. illegally are invaders. They might not be an army per se, but they are a horde. They aren't supposed to be here. They take what should be available to those who are here by right. Thus, they are thieves. It has to be said that Mexicans aren't the only people who cross the border illegally. It is a real threat to national security. Illegals from ANYWHERE should not be suffered so easily by this country, and those complicit in their furtherance should be punished.

While English is not the official language, it is the unifying language that immigrants from anywhere can use to communicate, even to each other. In spite of this, I don't think that English should be manditory. Eventually a non-English speaker here will either come around if they HAVE to speak English or they will find an environment and make do without. My folks came from Brazil back in the 50s' and learned English from the radio. Mom still pronounces "Tuesday" like "Chewsday." I think it's cute as hell. =)

Consider this:
"Press one" does not exist to help people. It exists to make more money. Governments and NPO's only do it for public relations and to give that warm fuzzy feeling.If it's a local interest and there's no Hispanic base to speak of, the interest isn't going to do the Press One option because it costs more than it would bring in. Nation-wide interests do choose the option because the Hispanic base is there to be tapped.

Personally, I like Spanish speaking folks because they're the only local crowd big enough that I can truely go nuts with during World Cup. World Cup is serious, dammit! =)

[Dmitri]

I can see why people feel offended if an immigrant refuses to speak English. The problem I have is with people complaining that the US is losing it's culture, losing it's heritage and all that... when really, this country IS new, it WAS founded by invading European settlers, and it's much easier for people to take a brisk walk than to sail accross the Atlantic ocean. Geographically speaking, the cultures are going to mix eventually.

Ok... You and Vel and others you know are the EXCEPTION not the rule... if you took a pole of Hispanics that immigrated to this country that do not have coversational english as a skill I think you'd be surprised. Most illegals don't learn the language cause they don't need to. Foremen will translate for English only people. And english only people will point at which patch of lettuce to pick.

The bi-lingual thing came as a neccessity, not at demand. Again, I don't have an issue with you coming here and bringing your culture and adding it to the mixing pot...

But like my German, gaelic, italian, gypsy, hungarian, french, lebanese and native american ancestors, they have to learn to function in the parameters of the society. One unifying statement is language...

Speak your language in your house, teach your kids, but teach them english so they can function in America.

That is the single biggest dividerin this country. The Language barrier. And it is self imposed by the immigrants that refuse or are too fucking lazy to learn, and the government that enables and fosters that indifference that is to blame.

[DoñaNina]

Mexicans that come to the U.S. illegally are invaders.


I agree. However, so were the European settlers when they made this country. Karma's a bitch, ain't it? I have some Native American friends (and family *coughdadcough*) who are laughing their asses off, right now.


Personally, I like Spanish speaking folks because they're the only local crowd big enough that I can truely go nuts with during World Cup. World Cup is serious, dammit! =)

DAMNED STRAIGHT!

[Pathos]

I have some Native American friends (and family *coughdadcough*) who are laughing their asses off, right now.
I have Native American friends and family as well.

None of them are laughing though.

[Dmitri]

I agree. However, so were the European settlers when they made this country. Karma's a bitch, ain't it? I have some Native American friends (and family *coughdadcough*) who are laughing their asses off, right now.

Different times, and they easily turned on one another... The surrounding tribes and Spain vs the Aztecs, the French and Huron vs the English and Mohicans. The Pawnee and US vs the Souix...

Had the Plains tribes united, we never would have made it past the Mississippi...

We have a set government, with set borders, with set laws and set language.

We have to protect ourselves from these invaders that want me to pay their way... Read the other thread... GOVERNMENTAL DEPENDENCE... i.e. STATE AID, STATE MEDICAL, STATE FOOD...

Al Gore wasn't a democrat, Al Gore is a socialist. And socialism will destroy what makes this country great...

[DoñaNina]

Al Gore wasn't a democrat, Al Gore is a socialist. And socialism will destroy what makes this country great...

We have slim pickings for good politicians, I think. But not everyone's ever going to agree. Thems are the breaks for democracy.

[Mighty Rontor]

...Karma's a bitch, ain't it? ...



DAMNED STRAIGHT!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!

*applaudes*

[Dmitri]

We have slim pickings for good politicians, I think. But not everyone's ever going to agree. Thems are the breaks for democracy.

Christ! Are you always this apathetic? Or do you just have an Eeyore complex?

[daBaroness]

Good golly I've missed these awesome idea exchanges on this board! Damned shame corporate America puts content blocks on their Internet. <snerk>

Seriously though, thank you one and all for your thoughts, opinions, experiences and honesty - it's good to have the brain cells shaken AND stirred!

[DoñaNina]

Christ! Are you always this apathetic? Or do you just have an Eeyore complex?

I've recently discovered that shits gonna happen that'll make someone somewhere unhappy, so you should make the best of what you've got right now.

And seeing as how Peter Cullen voiced Eeyore, I'm flattered by the suggestion.:-D

[Dmitri]

I've recently discovered that shits gonna happen that'll make someone somewhere unhappy, so you should make the best of what you've got right now.

Then shouldn't you try and make or help make the right decisions? No? Instead just shrug and say, "oh well."

Aren't you a bit young to be THAT disillusioned?

[Pathos]

so you should make the best of what you've got right now.
Making the best for the future is a good idea too.

8-)

[DoñaNina]

Then shouldn't you try and make or help make the right decisions? No? Instead just shrug and say, "oh well."

Aren't you a bit young to be THAT disillusioned?

I'm not shrugging and saying oh well, I'm doing the best with what I've got right now. Doesn't mean I'm not going to try and change things for the better, I -am- a voter, but if things don't go my way I'm going to try (key word is try) not to get to upset.

[Dmitri]

I'm not shrugging and saying oh well, I'm doing the best with what I've got right now. Doesn't mean I'm not going to try and change things for the better, I -am- a voter, but if things don't go my way I'm going to try (key word is try) not to get to upset.

if we don't get upset, that's when apathy seeds...

[DoñaNina]

if we don't get upset, that's when apathy seeds...

Don't worry, I'm not at the risk of not getting angry every once in a while. I don't think anyone is.

[Dmitri]

I'm not at the risk of not getting angry every once in a while.

course not... you're hispanic...

[DoñaNina]

course not... you're hispanic...

*GASP!* How dare you! What a racist thing to say! Why, were it not for it's complete accuracy, I would be offended indeed.

[Dmitri]

*GASP!* How dare you! What a racist thing to say! Why, were it not for it's complete accuracy, I would be offended indeed.

Hey I'd hate you if you weren't my frelling Kryptonite... (Hispanic bellydancing goths with a penchant for drow....

[DoñaNina]

(Hispanic bellydancing goths with a penchant for drow....)

You managed to sum me up in eight words. Bravo, good sir.

[Dmitri]

You managed to sum me up in eight words. Bravo, good sir.

Yeah, well it describes Vel to a tee as well... Hell, Veldrina is "Shadow" in drow...

http://www.wolfgaardarmoury.com/images/aboutusimages/aboutus_ana.gif

[DoñaNina]

Yeah, well it describes Vel to a tee as well... Hell, Veldrina is "Shadow" in drow...




She's lucky you appreciate all that. My boyfriend doesn't care for bellydancing, or dancing at all really. It's a little disheartening.

[surlywench]

She's lucky you appreciate all that. My boyfriend doesn't care for bellydancing, or dancing at all really. It's a little disheartening.


uhm....are you sure he's not dead?

[Psyche]

uhm....are you sure he's not dead?I was going to ask the same thing... :lol:

[DoñaNina]

uhm....are you sure he's not dead?

He died on the operating table twice, so maybe there's something to that theory... hmmmmm.....

[Dmitri]

She's lucky you appreciate all that. My boyfriend doesn't care for bellydancing, or dancing at all really. It's a little disheartening.

umm... How can he be with a latin and NOT be into your dancing? I don't dance (2 left feet) but I love watching Vel dance! As much as she loves to watch me swordfight... it's something she does amazingly well and she throws her emotions into it, especially the african tribal stuff.

Plus when guys at faire are watching her on stage (see: drooling) I can sit back and say... "Try all you like, but she;'s going home with me!"

[DoñaNina]

umm... How can he be with a latin and NOT be into your dancing? I don't dance (2 left feet) but I love watching Vel dance! As much as she loves to watch me swordfight... it's something she does amazingly well and she throws her emotions into it, especially the african tribal stuff.

Plus when guys at faire are watching her on stage (see: drooling) I can sit back and say... "Try all you like, but she;'s going home with me!"

I was going to be a dancer for a club, but he wasn't comfortable with it. I was also (in my thinner days...) going to be a fetish model, but he wasn't cool with that either. He's pretty protective.

[Dmitri]

I was going to be a dancer for a club, but he wasn't comfortable with it. I was also (in my thinner days...) going to be a fetish model, but he wasn't cool with that either. He's pretty protective.

There's a difference between 'protective' and 'possessive'. Protective is that he wants you safe. Most modeling sessions the photog allows the S.O. of the model to be there. (if not, they want more than what's in the contract) Being a model, for anything, shouldn't be cause for "protection'... Fetish modeling on the Internet or in print can bring in some SERIOUS money... I know several grrls that put themsleves thru school that way and kept doing it as an aside and NEVER wanted for extra money.

Now if he's saying: "I don't want other guys looking at my girl that way!" That's not protective, that's not jealousy, That's possessivness and no human should be 'possessed"... I don't know your SO, but I've known LOTS of this type of guy. They are all pricks who want to 'own' their girlfriends:

"Where were you? Who did you talk to? Did some guy come on to you? I'll kill him..."

Pet peeve are people that treat their S.O.s like toys. "NO! It's MY truck, you can't play with it!!!!"

Now stripping, on the other hand, I can understand. (if that's what you meant by 'dancing' at a club) ONLY, because nowadays the only way girls can make money is with lap dancing. I can see the issue with that. Sexual contact and all...

[DoñaNina]

No no, I would have been bellydancing for a club. But I can see what you're saying, and it's not that he says "no, you can't do that!" he's actually more like, "I won't stop you, but it makes me feel uncomfortable..." and I felt so bad that I couldn't do it.

And yeah, the modeling was $400 for a single shoot... *sigh* But he's worth more than $400. Now if only I could get him to come with me to Pennsec.