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View Full Version : Does the oath of office have to be taken on the bible?


kyrana
12-01-2006, 08:48 AM
Personally, I'd prefer that politicians (all of them) take the oath with their hands clutching the Constitution and the Bill of Rights like the documents are a tank of oxygen and they're in danger of drowning, but this man does have a point. I can see both sides as they are presented in the article - honestly, what's to prevent someone from taking the oath on a copy of Calvin and Hobbes comics, other than good taste? (Not that C&H are in bad taste, but in this situation it'd be ... inappropriate imho). However, if the bible doesn't hold any significance for you, why on earth would you swear an oath on it?

This is the only article I found, so I'm cutting and pasting it (Star Tribune requires a log on).
http://www.startribune.com/484/story/846590.html

WASHINGTON - Rep.-elect Keith Ellison's decision to take his oath of office on the Qur'an is stirring a debate among academics and conservatives, with some of them saying it's only appropriate to take an oath on the Bible.

The Minnesota Democrat says that the Constitution gives him the right to use the Muslim holy book, and that is what he intends to do on Jan. 4.
"Mr. Ellison, America, not you, decides on what book its public servants take their oath," radio talk show host and author Dennis Prager wrote in his online column this week. He said that American Jews routinely have taken their oath on the Bible, even though they don't believe in the New Testament, and that if Ellison refuses to do so, "don't serve in Congress."
But Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at the University of California, Los Angeles, said the Constitution authorizes people not to swear their oath at all, protecting atheists and agnostics.
"Why would Muslims and others not be equally protected?" he wrote for National Review Online.
Ellison, who told the Star Tribune shortly after his election victory that he planned to use the Qur'an, was attending meetings in Washington on Thursday and could not be reached for comment, according to Dave Colling, his spokesman. But Ellison defended his plan to use the Qur'an, Islam's holiest book, in an interview with Abdi Aynte, a reporter from Minneapolis who writes for the Minnesota Monitor, an independently produced political news blog.
"The Constitution guarantees for everyone to take the oath of office on whichever book they prefer," Ellison was quoted as saying. "And that's what the freedom of religion is all about."
Ellison's decision drew support from one prominent conservative firebrand, Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo, who champions a fence along the border with Mexico and who says that unfettered immigration endangers American culture.
"He wants to take his oath on the Qur'an, that's fine," Tancredo said. "I think whatever you believe is necessary for you to uphold your obligations to the Constitution, that is fine with me."
In his weekly column, Prager said Ellison's act is "an act of hubris that perfectly exemplifies multiculturalist activism." He warned that allowing Ellison to use the Qur'an could pave the way for a racist to use "his favorite book" to take the oath of office.
"When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization," Prager wrote. "If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9/11. It is hard to believe that this is the legacy most Muslim-Americans want to bequeath to America."
Ellison is the first Muslim in the nation, and the first black person from Minnesota, to become a member of the U.S. House. His campaign and election have attracted national attention because of his groundbreaking status.
Five years after 9/11 and with the ongoing raw debate about clashing civilizations and Islamic extremism, Ellison downplayed the role of religion in his drive for office. He nonetheless has acknowledged that his election has thrust him into position as a spokesman for Islam in the United States.
In the National Review, Volokh noted that two former presidents -- Franklin Pierce and Herbert Hoover -- didn't swear their oath but chose to affirm it.
He said that the Supreme Court has long held that Americans have the right to be treated equally, regardless of their religion, and that forcing Ellison to use the Bible would violate his rights.
"Letting Christians swear the oath of office, while allowing members of other denominations only to swear what ends up being a mockery of an oath -- a religious ceremony appealing to a religious belief system that they do not share -- would be [discriminatory]," Volokh wrote.
Said Ron Eibensteiner, former state Republican Party chairman: "It doesn't matter if he wants to be sworn in on the Qur'an; that's perfectly fine. We have in this country freedom of religion and free speech."
Tammy Lee, who ran against Ellison as an Independent in the Fifth Congressional District, agreed. "This country was founded on principles of freedom of religion. Our Constitution guarantees it, and as a newly elected member of Congress who's going to uphold the Constitution, he has every right to choose what religious traditions he wants to practice."
Radio talk show host Dan Barreiro said he has been "a bit bewildered" by the concern expressed, mainly on blogs, about Ellison's choice. The topic came up Thursday on his afternoon show on KFAN. "The general consensus I got was that most people were not terrified at the prospect that this was something that he might do," Barreiro said.
"Certainly there is no law that mandates that a person put their hand on a Bible as any kind of litmus test of their loyalty to the country," he added.
In 2003, Minnesota Sen. Norm Coleman, who is Jewish, was sworn in with a Bible given to him by a priest who is a friend of the family. The late Minnesota Sen. Paul Wellstone, who also was Jewish, was sworn in in 1991 with a Bible from his wife Sheila's family.

Staff writers Joy Powell and Lesley Clark contributed to this report. Rob Hotakainen is a correspondent in the Star Tribune Washington Bureau.
Rob Hotakainen • rhotakainen@startribune.com (rhotakainen@startribune.com)

Dmitri
12-01-2006, 08:54 AM
He's Muslim... He takes the oath on the Qu'ran... If swore on the bible, it wouldn't be an oath...

what the fuck is the deal with people...

kyrana
12-01-2006, 08:58 AM
what the fuck is the deal with people...

It may not be people - it may be Minnesota. This is a very, very odd place, politically speaking. I almost left immediately after moving here - these people elected a professional wrestler govenor!

Dmitri
12-01-2006, 09:07 AM
It may not be people - it may be Minnesota. This is a very, very odd place, politically speaking. I almost left immediately after moving here - these people elected a professional wrestler govenor!

I don't know... I happen to agree with ALOT of what Jesse had to say... I would've voted for him...

One of my fav quotes from him: "Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

Pathos
12-01-2006, 09:27 AM
these people elected a professional wrestler govenor!
He's also a father and family man. A Vietman veteran. Navy SEAL. Successfull businessman. Lots of things.

And I think he had the highest popularity voting in Minnesota's history. He would've been re-elected in a cakewalk but decided not to run again due to the constant media attacks on his family.

I didn't have any regard for him as a wrestler...but I developed some respect for him during his political career.

8-)

Artemisia
12-01-2006, 10:49 AM
"When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization," Prager wrote. "If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9/11. It is hard to believe that this is the legacy most Muslim-Americans want to bequeath to America."

That tells me Prager is Mr. Scared-Out-Of-His-Irrational-Wits.

The very same item should be the constitution. I really like that idea. :aok: You'd have to lay your hand on the glass case though - don't want muss up the paper.

DoņaNina
12-01-2006, 10:51 AM
"He wants to take his oath on the Qur'an, that's fine," Tancredo said. "I think whatever you believe is necessary for you to uphold your obligations to the Constitution, that is fine with me."

OH MY GOSH exactly. I'm a firm believer in the idea that what you believe in affects you, not what others believe in. If God comes to him in the form of Allah, let dude do what he needs to do! At least he's not playing lip service to something he doesn't believe in. Isn't that more offensive than letting him do his thing?

Bean
12-01-2006, 10:54 AM
Well, if you can opt not to swear on a bible in a court of law, what's the big deal about using another book or no book at all to take an OATH OF OFFICE. He is swearing to uphold the constitution, not the bible. It seems that people forget that little tidbit.......

I'm right there with using Calvin and Hobbes, though. :lol:

Katie O'Connell
12-01-2006, 12:03 PM
In his weekly column, Prager said Ellison's act is "an act of hubris that perfectly exemplifies multiculturalist activism." He warned that allowing Ellison to use the Qur'an could pave the way for a racist to use "his favorite book" to take the oath of office.
"When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization," Prager wrote. "If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9/11.

Yeah, um... Mr. Prager... would this be the very same 'value system' our elected leaders have been using for a few decades now? :unamused:

Don't know about you, Mr. Prager, but I'm willing to give another 'value system' a try here.

:roll: Man... I may subsribe to the general western Christian dogma, but you will never hear me claim that 'Christian Values' and 'Christian morals' are any better than any other religion. It just drives me nuts when people make that kind of arrogantly assumptive statement.

Personally, I'd prefer that politicians (all of them) take the oath with their hands clutching the Constitution and the Bill of Rights like the documents are a tank of oxygen and they're in danger of drowning, but this man does have a point.

Now THERE is a fine suggestion (imho). ::clappin: That's the common thread that we all share as US citizens. Maybe we should call more attention to that as our 'unifying value system' instead of mentioning religion at all.

I wonder what Prager would say to that?

Selena
12-01-2006, 01:25 PM
Hmph-- as if the oath of office actually means something anymore.

"Oath of Office" = however the politician sees fit to interpret said oath.

Ysobelle
12-01-2006, 01:43 PM
In his weekly column, Prager said Ellison's act is "an act of hubris that perfectly exemplifies multiculturalist activism." He warned that allowing Ellison to use the Qur'an could pave the way for a racist to use "his favorite book" to take the oath of office.

My advice to Mr. Prager, then, would be to not vote for a racist.



Oh, and Dmitri? just to make a point: my religion-- Reform Judaism, which is what most American Jews practise-- pretty much forbids me from "sticking my nose into other people's business." Unless they ask me to.

Dmitri
12-01-2006, 01:46 PM
Oh, and Dmitri? just to make a point: my religion-- Reform Judaism, which is what most American Jews practise-- pretty much forbids me from "sticking my nose into other people's business." Unless they ask me to.

good to know... ;)

Magdalene
12-01-2006, 03:25 PM
How 'bout "elected candidate may take Oath of Office swearing on the Holy Book officially used by the religious organization of his/her choice, or none at all"?

Then people can swear on the Bible, Koran, Torah, whatever official religious books without worrying that somebody will try and sneak in "Calvin and Hobbes" or "Mein Kampf"....

Or am I being too simplistic?

Bean
12-01-2006, 04:05 PM
They already can use any book they choose, or nothing at all to take the oath of office. Because Mr. Ellison is exercising this right is what is making some people a little bit crazy. I say good for Mr. Ellison to use what is important to him.

daBaroness
12-01-2006, 05:53 PM
The fact this is an issue just makes me want to sit on a chair and drool mindlessly!

I think if I ever run for and win elected office, I want to be sworn in either on the Tao of Pooh, a LOTR book (leather-bound version), a Robert Jordan, Eye of the World book (also leather bound) or maybe something by A.N. Rouquelear(sp) aka Anne Rice (definitely leather-bound). Then again, maybe Peter Pan would fit the bill too!

<snerk>

Blue Pixie
12-05-2006, 12:45 AM
Ok, I just don't understand why people are making a big deal about this. It's his religion, so he's swearing on his bible- isn't that what people want. I mean you wouldn't want him to swear on something that he didn't care about and would rather use as kindling?! But that's may story.

Ysobelle
12-05-2006, 04:39 AM
Just a note: I've since discovered that the new members of Congress are taken into a room, where they all raise their right hands and repeat the oath of office. Some of them elect to carry a Bible, some don't. They're not required to do anything in particular.

daBaroness
12-05-2006, 02:36 PM
Some Christian denominations don't allow "swearing" or oath-taking to anyone but God. I had a former coworker who belonged to the Church of Christ and when she had to testify at a trial, she had to have them change her swearing in to something like "I promise to tell the truth."

And no, a swearing-in doesn't require the use of any book, our word is supposed to be our bond. But some people like to use a Bible or other religious book symbolically.

This guy is off his freakin' rocker and ought reread the Bible.

Christ on a cracker.

Sylvie-Rose
12-05-2006, 03:15 PM
The fact this is an issue just makes me want to sit on a chair and drool mindlessly!

I think if I ever run for and win elected office, I want to be sworn in either on the Tao of Pooh, a LOTR book (leather-bound version), a Robert Jordan, Eye of the World book (also leather bound) or maybe something by A.N. Rouquelear(sp) aka Anne Rice (definitely leather-bound). Then again, maybe Peter Pan would fit the bill too!

<snerk>

How about your IWG Little Brown Book?

Perin
12-06-2006, 07:14 PM
Ok, I just don't understand why people are making a big deal about this. It's his religion, so he's swearing on his bible- isn't that what people want. I mean you wouldn't want him to swear on something that he didn't care about and would rather use as kindling?! But that's may story.

Is there really an uproar or just this one dumb-ass columnist?

Swearing on the bible is just a way to make it so they wouldn't dare break that oath. 200 years ago I'm sure it meant a whole lot more than it does today to most people.

Why would you have an atheist swear on the bible? WTF does he care if he breaks his pledge? Not like he would be worried of God's vengeance... :roll:

Pathos
12-06-2006, 07:33 PM
http://www.acc.umu.se/%7Ezqad/cats/1161445934174.b.jpg

Vixynne Rose
12-06-2006, 07:58 PM
aaaaaaand Vix's laptop gets baptized...


...with Diet Coke!

*rotfl*
Tank ewe, Pathos!

Cyranno DeBoberac
12-06-2006, 08:20 PM
Why would you have an atheist swear on the bible? WTF does he care if he breaks his pledge? Not like he would be worried of God's vengeance... :roll:

It doesn't speak well of one's character if one needs to be in fear of some invisible man in order to honor to one's word.

Ysobelle
12-07-2006, 01:00 AM
I dunno if it's so much fear as a way of saying, "I don't just make this promise to you, I make it to G-d as well."

Mistress Morigianna
12-07-2006, 01:38 AM
how bout they swear on the american flag as a represntative of the american people??