Lucy on tour

[Selena]

I agree with him (Leakey). With the internet and all you can see online, is it really necessary to do this?? I think not. If one really wishes to see this figure in person, they can go where it belongs... just as it's been done for centuries. Why potentially destroy this is what I don't understand....


From the Austin American Statesman...

Paleontologist Leakey denounces Lucy skeleton tour of U.S.

By KHALED KAZZIHA
Associated Press Writer

NAIROBI, Kenya — One of the world's leading paleontologists denounced Ethiopia's decision to send the Lucy skeleton on a six-year tour of the United States, warning Friday that the 3.2 million-year-old fossil will likely be damaged no matter how careful its handlers are.
The skeleton was quietly flown out of Ethiopia earlier this week for the U.S. tour, which is scheduled to start in Houston later this month.
Paleontologist Richard Leakey joined other experts in criticizing what some see as a gamble with one of the world's most famous fossils. The Smithsonian Institution also has objected to the tour, and the secretive manner in which the remains were sent abroad has raised eyebrows in Ethiopia, where Lucy has been displayed to the public only twice.


"It's a form of prostitution, it's gross exploitation of the ancestors of humanity and it should not be permitted," Leakey told The Associated Press in an interview at his office in Nairobi.


Ethiopian officials could not immediately be reached for comment, but have said proceeds from the tour would be used to upgrade museums in one of the world's poorest countries.


Dirk Van Tuerenhout, the curator of anthropology at the Houston Museum of Natural Science, where Lucy will be on display from Aug. 31 to April 20, said his museum would treat the relic with "the greatest respect and sense of protection — something we in the museum world do all the time."
"On the one hand, I would say we definitely share the concern that people have to safeguard fossils like Lucy, or for that matter any other fossils," Van Tuerenhout said. "Where we part company, in a sense, is the decision that was made to allow her to travel."


He emphasized the decision to allow Lucy to travel abroad was made by the Ethiopian government, and that Houston was honored by its selection.
Van Tuerenhout also noted the exhibit's story line was broader than just Lucy and offers other educational aspects.


"We are definitely going to be able, with Lucy's presence, to tell the story of Ethiopia — not only the prehistoric part, but also the historic part," he said. "This is one of those exhibits that covers quite a lot of history."
Lucy, the fossilized partial skeleton of what was once a 3 1/2-foot-tall adult of an ape-man species, was discovered in 1974 in the remote, desert-like Afar region in northeastern Ethiopia. Lucy is classified as an Australopithecus afarensis, which lived in Africa between about 3 million to 4 million years ago, and is the earliest known hominid.


The State Department approved the exhibit for temporary importation into the U.S., saying that display of Lucy and the other artifacts is in the national interest because of their "cultural significance."
Stops beyond Houston have yet to be finalized, but Ethiopian officials have said they include New York, Denver and Chicago.


Leakey said the skeleton will almost certainly get damaged.
"These specimens will get damaged no matter how careful you are and every time she is moved there is a risk," he said. "A specimen that is that precious and unique shouldn't be exposed to the threats of damage by travel."


He also said keeping Lucy in Ethiopia would lure tourists to the country.
"The point is, what is the benefit of taking one of the most iconic examples of the human story from Africa to parade it around in second-level museums in the United States?" he said.
Leakey is one of the world's most renowned paleontologists. His team unearthed the bones of Turkana Boy — the most complete skeleton of a prehistoric human ever found — in the desolate, far northern reaches of Kenya in 1984.
He is also a conservationist credited with helping end the slaughter of elephants in Kenya during the 1980s.
___

[Bean]

Unfortunately it's all about the mighty dollar. However, I wouldn't travel to Ethiopia to see Lucy no matter how badly I might want to.

[Buxom Wench]

Unfortunately it's all about the mighty dollar. However, I wouldn't travel to Ethiopia to see Lucy no matter how badly I might want to.

And to think, Himself thought about going to see Lucy when he's in Ethiopia. :roll:

He'll be there and she'll be here. OY!

[Ysobelle]

Unfortunately it's all about the mighty dollar. However, I wouldn't travel to Ethiopia to see Lucy no matter how badly I might want to.

I'm wondering if that's exactly the problem right there. And I completely understand where Dr. Leakey's coming from, but I have to acknowledge that Ethiopia can use all the help it can get.

[Pathos]

Unfortunately anthropological science like that isn't near as glamorous as other kinds of historical science so they can surely use the money.

And the tour will definately generate a lot of money.

[WenchLadyKate]

I see no problem with this. It can be seen by thousands who want to see it who may not have the means to travel to Ethiopia. Then the money that's made will benefit the museum in Ethiopia. Maybe when the museum is more of a tourist attraction they won't have to send stuff out to make money. I see this as a win win.

The thing I don't get though, is that apparently eyebrows have risen because she was secrectly removed. That's where I start questioning motives...

There's really nothing like seeing this kind of thing first hand and being close to it. To me, things like that just can't be fully appreciated online.

[Buxom Wench]

...The thing I don't get though, is that apparently eyebrows have risen because she was secrectly removed. That's where I start questioning motives...


Ethiopia is a very religious country.
If there were any thoughts whatsoever that Lucy had some type of religious aspect to the country, that alone would be reason enough to 'sneak her out' of the country.
Any religious object, no matter how big or small, cannot leave the country unless blessed by a religious leader and also cleared with the government.

[WenchLadyKate]

Granted, I have absolutely no idea what Lucy is. A little reading by me will be done when I can do the google or wiki search when I get home.

But cool. Then, I see no harm here. Everybody wins. And hopefully, enough care will be taken that no damage will be done.

I know I've said it before and I've been criticized for it, but I see no problem when money is the motive when it isn't for personal gain. If the museum makes the money it seems to need, great! I hope the tour is a success for them. :-)

Good thing Lucy has so many people that care about her!

[Selena]

Granted, I have absolutely no idea what Lucy is. A little reading by me will be done when I can do the google or wiki search when I get home.

But cool. Then, I see no harm here. Everybody wins. And hopefully, enough care will be taken that no damage will be done.

I know I've said it before and I've been criticized for it, but I see no problem when money is the motive when it isn't for personal gain. If the museum makes the money it seems to need, great! I hope the tour is a success for them. :-)

Good thing Lucy has so many people that care about her!

Lucy = a very very important find on the chain between ape and man and the an extremely important find for the bipedal lineage.

Actually, I disagree. Not everyone wins. IF Lucy were to experience disrepair, your future generations will never know the likes of a three and a half million year old homind, to which they can learn.

Leave her alone, where she belongs, where she once lived.

Why chance destroying her?


Why? Because it's in our human nature to do so.

[WenchLadyKate]

Lucy = a very very important find on the chain between ape and man and the an extremely important find for the bipedal lineage.

Actually, I disagree. Not everyone wins. IF Lucy were to experience disrepair, your future generations will never know the likes of a three and a half million year old homind, to which they can learn.

Leave her alone, where she belongs, where she once lived.

Why chance destroying her?


Why? Because it's in our human nature to do so.

Okay, I do know more than I thought.

I'll still stand by it. People need to see this kind of thing up close and personal. I'm sure she won't be destroyed, and I'm sure every little centimeter, no, milimeter of her has been studied, photographed and documented. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a 3D rendering done of her. Since, as you say, she is so important.

With all that, she would still exist, even if there is a new repair here or there, so future generations would not miss out. With the things they can do, we'd probably be hard pressed to tell where those repairs were...

The museum needs money, this will generate it. People need to see this extremely important find, with a tour, they will. I'm sure the caretakers know just how important she really is, probably better than us, I'm sure nothing will damage her to obliteration.

[Bean]

The people of Ethiopia need the money more than the museum does. Why not make a replica and send THAT out on tour. I'd pay to see a replica.

[Selena]

The people of Ethiopia need the money more than the museum does.

Yes, but please... do you really see them giving the money to the people of Ethiopia?? I certainly don't...

[Selena]

[quote=WenchLadyKate;219534 People need to see this kind of thing up close and personal. I'm sure she won't be destroyed, and I'm sure every little centimeter, no, milimeter of her has been studied, photographed and documented. [/quote]


As I'm certain you would be okay if your ancestors' bones were transported across the ocean for examination, to cities across Europe, for everyone to see who can't come to the States to view... the risk of destroying the remains be damned.

But there will always be photos to prove it's existence!


::edit::

it's a physical process that travel, no matter who or what you are, causes a sort of stress. Just how do you feel when you travel across the ocean? Just think... for just a moment, what that would do to a THREE MILLION and a half year old body.

[Isabelle Warwicke]

...your ancestors' bones...

She is our ancestor. ALL of ours. As a woman and an anthropology student, I would like to see her. Course, I have NO desire whatsoever to go to Ethiopia.

I like Bean's idea of making a cast and showing the replica. They did that with Sue, the t-rex at the Field Museum in Chicago. But I think that Sue really did tour for a while first. She came home safe.

There is always risk involved when one country lends it's priceless artifacts to museums in another. I remember seeing the Kremlin Gold collection and the day it opened there were Russian Guards in the rooms with the treasures (some said they were constumed, some say differently.) I also remember seeing the Titanic artifacts, including the actual piece of the ship that was brought up. Much care goes into the transport and display of these items. I'm certain Lucy will have the utmost in delicate care. She is very precious.

[Buxom Wench]

...Course, I have NO desire whatsoever to go to Ethiopia...

I thought the same thing until Himself came home with GORGEOUS pictures and feeling as though he had been with long lost friends instead of a country full of strangers.

[Selena]

She is our ancestor. ALL of ours. As a woman and an anthropology student, I would like to see her. Course, I have NO desire whatsoever to go to Ethiopia.

I like Bean's idea of making a cast and showing the replica.

You know, you're right. You are so right. And I don't wish to take that chance on destroying what we treasure.

I do like the idea of making a cast and showing the replica. It's oh so much better than the mere chance ... just a CHANCE of fucking up the real thing.

[Buxom Wench]

Here's just a small sample of how beautiful Ethiopa is...

http://i19.tinypic.com/6ewqhr4.jpg

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

I just hope the tour won't be used as an opportunity for the flat-earthers to try and destroy Lucy, since her very existance contradicts a couple of their core beliefs.

[WenchLadyKate]

It's not as if she's going to turn to dust if she goes a visiting. I'm also pretty sure that the 3D rendering can be used to create a replica.

I personally, don't think I'd spend the money to see the replica, and no matter how beautiful photos might be, I still have no desire to travel to Ethiopia.

I would, however, pay good money to see Lucy. The care that is taken to transport her, I'm sure, will be more than enough. There's always a risk, but I'm sure it's already been calculated to be acceptable.

And yes, if it were my personal ancestors remains, I might have a problem. However, if my great great grandmother was the first woman in the world to have formed some miracle of evolution and her bones were that important, I'd want the world to see.

[Selena]

I just hope the tour won't be used as an opportunity for the flat-earthers to try and destroy Lucy, since her very existance contradicts a couple of their core beliefs.

Well, yeah... now that you mention it. ::tinfoil:::tinfoil:::tinfoil:

[Selena]

It's not as if she's going to turn to dust if she goes a visiting.


You sure 'bout that??

I don't mean to pick on you Cricket... but dangit... if you tell me you are a paleontologist, I'd believe you.

Transporting at three million year old body ain't easy. I don't claim I know... but...

pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack... air plane... whoooopssss... damned turbulence. what'a-pain! damn that hurts me legs! fuck... it's now turned to dust!!

[Lucy]

THREAD JACK!

Okay...read the topic fast and was like..."Huh?? Where the hell am I going??" LOL!


Now back to your regularly scheduled Lucy tour info.

[Pathos]

pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack pack unpack... air plane... whoooopssss... damned turbulence. what'a-pain! damn that hurts me legs! fuck... it's now turned to dust!!
You make it sound like she's tucked away in someone's carry-on.
8-)

I think there's a lot more going on. Lot's of high-tech "state-of-the-art" equipment being deployed for this. She's not going to be tossed around aimlessly.

Besides...every time we do more research on her...we damage her. Every little flake that has to be removed to do some new test. Every radiation-spreading scan we do to check some new theory.

Truth is...she may be better off on tour.

[Selena]

You make it sound like she's tucked away in someone's carry-on.8-)


The Smithsonian Institution also has objected to the tour, and the secretive manner in which the remains were sent abroad has raised eyebrows in Ethiopia, where Lucy has been displayed to the public only twice.


Sounds like it to me....

[Pathos]

I'm curious as to why you speak of Lucy with an almost religious deference. As if this tour is somehow wrong from a moral point of view.

The Smithsonian Institution is just that...an institution. It's not the be-all-end-all of the academic world. They have their staff made up of regular people just like the rest of us. They can be right...they can be wrong. But they have to worry about a lot of politics.

And Ethiopia is well...it's Ethiopia.

Lucy is bigger than that.

[Isabelle Warwicke]

...the secretive manner in which the remains were sent abroad ...

Some one had to have given permission. I'm sure that we didn't go in and snatch her like Elian Gonzalez in the middle of the night.

Wanna get up in arms about snatched artifacts being ferreted out of countries...look up the Elgin Marbles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parthenon_Marbles) from the Parthenon. I've seen that first hand and it turned my stomach.

[Bonnie Strangeways]

I hate to be the one to stradle the fence (well, not really...it can be quite comfortable if you do it just right...nevermind) but I can see both sides.

Yes, it could be potentially hazardous...even disaterous for Lucy to go out and about. *cheeky grin at Miss Buckles*

However...it is NOT so easy to go a-visiting little ole Ethiopia either. And, Lucy being *all* of our ancestors (please, no creationism/evolution debates here, I'm just throwing this out to make a point) I think it is fair to say that we ALL deserve the oppertunity, the once-in-a-lifetime chance to physically see her. To come to terms with where we came from, and to perhaps catch a glimmer of where we might be heading in the future. Are we done...is this all that we were meant to be? Can Lucy answer this...mebbe...mebbe not. But I sure would like the chance to gaze at her and ask myself that riddle.

This find isn't the property of the country of Ethiopia alone...it's in their trust, but Lucy belongs to all mankind. Now, I'm more than happy to help contribute to the cost of mainting that trust, I'll happily pay to go and see Lucy if I am fortunate enough for her to visit close enough to me, but I still think that it's right that she be brought to the public view. I think it passing suspicious and almost cruel that the politicans of Ethiopia would keep her locked away from us all, as if only they the chosen few were "good enough" to see her. Piss on that.

Insofar as "sneaking her out", is there any back story on whether there were any prior communications/requests that were repeatedly turned down? Betcha there were plenty, and they're not going to publicize that part, because then they aren't the victims. (Not that I don't think the English aren't sneaky ba&^%&ds anyway...hello...I'm IRISH! *snort*)

Believe me, I do understand that she's special, delicate, and irreplacible. I've had 2 quarters of Anthropology pounded into me...I KNOW. But, she's also a huge part of us all, and we all deserve to see her, and this may sound trite, SHE deserves to see us.

[Gemdrite]

Wanna get up in arms about snatched artifacts being ferreted out of countries...look up the Elgin Marbles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Parthenon_Marbles) from the Parthenon. I've seen that first hand and it turned my stomach.
Were you the lookout?


Sorry, the way you worded that, I just couldn't resist. *holds wrist out for slapping*

[Bonnie Strangeways]

Lucy is bigger than that.


Thank you Pathos, for stating it so very eloquently!

[Isabelle Warwicke]

Were you the lookout?

:unamused: Brat. No, I was in Greece and when you walk through the Parthenon Museum there is one whole, large, empty room that was built for the Marbles. It's bleak and feel wrong and at the time I was there they had planned to leave it empty to stand as a testament to them.

[RubyRedAnn]

I have a minor in Paleoanthroplogy from U of M. I know for a fact that the Field Museum has a copy of Lucy. I'm examined it. Most of the major fossil finds, including the hoax of Piltdown Man, can be purchased through specialized dealers. The replicas are made of a plastic material and can be ordered even on the net.

My opinion of moving her city to city is that it shoudn't be done. As much as I'd love to see the actual bones, the general public has no real need. The replicas can tell you all you need to know about bone structure. As an undergrad, I wrote a paper that was published on my choice of ancestors, Lucy, known as A. Afracanus or A. Aferensis. I didn't need the actual bones to make my decision. The bones are only needed for maybe DNA and it's rare to get DNA from bones that old. See, fossils aren't easily made. You have to have the right soil and conditions. Fossils are made very slowly by having rock/minerals trade places with the bio material. The actual fossils are needed for carbon dating if that can be done. Not all fossils can be carbon dated either.

The man who discovered Lucy, or at least took the credit, Donald Johanson (http://www.asu.edu/clas/iho/people/johanson.html), has a reputation that he's all about the fame. The Leaky family are famous but have been in the fossil game longer and found more specimens. The Leakys don't try to be famous.

I think the excitement over the tour would benefit science in general. Look what happened to the interest in Egyt and mummies when King Tut was found. But...gold is alot less fragile than fossils. As a person who accepts the theory of evolution, any way to educate people is a issue close to my heart. But this fossil may not be the way to do it.

Annabella

[Bean]

Depending on her schedule, I might be very tempted to go see her. But, as I said, I'd go see a replica, too. Is there any place on the web that has a schedule of her tour?

[WenchLadyKate]

There's something different about seeing the real bones rather than seeing a replica. Something about standing near something that's 3 and a hlaf million years old or however old she is. No, I'm not a palentologist, heck, I can't even spell it, but yea. Aren't fossils rocks? Indeed, the thing I'd be most wary of is extremists blowing up the transportation. And somehow, I'm thinking security would be tight. Plus, it's not like she's being checked onto a JetBlue flight.

Hopefully, she'll make an appearance at the Museum of Natural History in NYC. Or even in DC would be close enough for me to go see.

[Bean]

If she comes near DC, you're welcome to crash here Cricket!

[WenchLadyKate]

If she comes near DC, you're welcome to crash here Cricket!

Aw, thank you! I might take you up on that! It's a drive that can be done in a day for me, but leads to exhaustion the following day. DC is such a wonderful place, I've actually been itching to go anyway. I love the national museum.