State faults teachers of English learners

[Capt. Stamina]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0831ellmonitor0831.html

Hundreds of students in Arizona are trying to learn English from teachers who don't know the language, state officials say.

The kids are taught by teachers who don't know English grammar and can't pronounce English words correctly. Last year, for example, a Mesa teacher stood in front of a class of language learners and announced, "Sometimes, you are not gonna know some." A teacher in Phoenix's Creighton Elementary District asked her kids, "If you have problems, to who are you going to ask?" A Casa Grande Elementary District teacher asked her kids to "read me first how it was before."

Each year, the state evaluates a sampling of classrooms where kids are learning English. Last year, officials visited 32 districts and found similar problems at nine. Some teachers' English was so poor that even state officials strained to understand them. The state also found that students learning English at all ages were being taught by teachers who did not have appropriate training or materials. At a dozen districts, evaluators found teachers who ignored state law and taught in Spanish.

<snip>

[Pansy Faye]

And people wonder WHY I'm an advocate against Ebonics.

I am constantly correting poeple's English, no matter where I am. It drives people crazy but if they are not corrected they don't know they are wrong and since there is no reinforcement at home or school, what I do is no good, but I do it anyway.

Someday, English will be one of those ancient languages, like Latin, that is only taught in college for linguistics majors.

[FairieTink]

As someone that lives in the fine state.



DUH; we had a vote not to many years ago on if English should be the state lang. or not. And as a small note, every district they brought up is one of the poorer areas. Not that it means they can not speak well but the teachers they can afford to hire are going to be lower end.

At my kids old district there was a girl in my daughters 7th grade class who spoke no english, the teacher spoke no spanish and yet the girl passed every year since 1st in this district.

[Mistress Morigianna]

I am always correcting people at our store- It is INCENSE not INSCENT

[Pansy Faye]

Well Tink, My thinking is this. Teachers are college educated, even if the lower end of the graduating class. You would think that by the time they graduated college they would be able to speak proper english. I mean REALLY - they're going to be f****g teachers!! One of the things they should excell at is communications and proper English is a big part of that.

Really, christonacracker, get with the program people!:augh:

[FairieTink]

Well Tink, My thinking is this. Teachers are college educated, even if the lower end of the graduating class. You would think that by the time they graduated college they would be able to speak proper english. I mean REALLY - they're going to be f****g teachers!! One of the things they should excell at is communications and proper English is a big part of that.

Really, christonacracker, get with the program people!:augh:

Not totally correct
We have such a shortage here that you can be getting your degree and still teach. You do not need to have finished school at all. And honestly let's look at a lot of college students, how well do they speak.

[Capt. Stamina]

I wonder if this is one of those 'multicultural' issues. You know where the people are hired because of their sex, ethnical background, or both rather than finding the best person for the job.

[LadyLaura]

Even when I was in GRAD SCHOOL, I was shocked at some of the papers my classmates turned in. I wouldn't think they would have passed for HIGH SCHOOL work. No organization, poor grammar, and spelling errors. I have no idea how they made it through undergrad, but they made it through grad school, too. Very sad.

And as for how some of these people end up teaching, there are "alternate routes" to certification that skip a lot of the required classes, and rush people through over a summer program. In areas where there are shortages of teachers, they use these programs a lot. They take people from all different fields, and turn them into "instant teachers". A four-year degree is required, but it can be in any field. In my experience, these people are usually woefully unprepared, and most don't last very long. There are some exceptions, of course.

Districts also have the option of taking student teachers and giving them regular classes and pay under "hardship", if they can't find qualified (certified) teachers to fill the position.

[FairieTink]

I used to teach at a college, just a small note, I have never went to college myself. It isn't required to have ever went to college to teach at one. :ilu:

[Gellis Indigo]

No Child Left Behind is supposed to be fixing this issue by requiring that all teachers be "Highly Qualified" in the areas they are teaching.
However, the system for considering a teacher as "Highly Qualified" is one of self-reporting, with no checks in place. So people can fill out the form and claim they are "Highly Qualified", even if they aren't.

[surlywench]

I wonder if this is one of those 'multicultural' issues. You know where the people are hired because of their sex, ethnical background, or both rather than finding the best person for the job.


It's more likely a "ZOMG WE NEED TEACHERS WILLING TO WORK FOR PENNIES!!!!!!!" issue. They need teachers, NOW, and can't pay enough money to lure candidates with better resumes...so they hire .....pretty much anyone with a teaching cert and a clean background check....

[surlywench]

No Child Left Behind is supposed to be fixing this issue by requiring that all teachers be "Highly Qualified" in the areas they are teaching.
However, the system for considering a teacher as "Highly Qualified" is one of self-reporting, with no checks in place. So people can fill out the form and claim they are "Highly Qualified", even if they aren't.


WHHHEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

Well HEY YA'LL!!!!! I are Highlee Qualifyed becuz I haz a Phd in electrochemicular matheeematical star searchin!!!! Now gimmeh mah monez!!!!!!


:headdesk:
that's just so wrong..

[MaidenFaeSnow]

It's more likely a "ZOMG WE NEED TEACHERS WILLING TO WORK FOR PENNIES!!!!!!!" issue. They need teachers, NOW, and can't pay enough money to lure candidates with better resumes...so they hire .....pretty much anyone with a teaching cert and a clean background check....

We've had incidents here where they've used uncertified people for full school years (I know of at least one who taught several years in a row) and they just call them 'long term substitutes' who do what the teachers do, same responsibilities, etc, the school wasn't looking to replace the one I knew, they were very happy with the job she was doing. She ended up moving on when she got married and started a family.

[Peaches O Malley]

It's more likely a "ZOMG WE NEED TEACHERS WILLING TO WORK FOR PENNIES!!!!!!!" issue. They need teachers, NOW, and can't pay enough money to lure candidates with better resumes...so they hire .....pretty much anyone with a teaching cert and a clean background check....

Thanks Surlz. :wink:

I have to chime in here as a future teacher in the fine state of Az. NCLB has very few good things about it IMHO, not the least of which being written by men that had NO backround in education...WTF??? That being said, it also has a hell of alot more that is crap IMHO. There is not enough room here for me to bitch about it. As far as the quality of teachers, yes there is a major shortage and unfortunately sometimes it's just about a warm body to fill a spot.
For the un-enlightened, some things need to be pointed out.
1. Arizona is one of the lowest on the rung in education..49 or 50 I believe.
2. There are too many schools in this state operating on pennies (we do however have a shiney new football stadium, thank you very much.)
3. Yes we have a high population of Spanish/Mexican/ whatever students...anyone heard of the "browning of America?" Regardless of how you feel about the immigration issue, I will not stop a child from learning because mom and dad are illegal. Will I teach in Spanish? I will do what is required by my school, district, state.

Teaching is NOT a 7-3/8-4, summers off job people. It's an up-hill battle fought by mostly highly qualified teachers making NOT highly qualified money. I am tired of seeing a few crap teachers being held up as an example of "who are teaching our children."

I am choosing to teach because I love it, and I love the children.
Come spend a day with me.....I'm just student teaching.

Rant over. ;-)

[surlywench]

Thanks Surlz. :wink:
...
2. There are too many schools in this state operating on pennies (we do however have a shiney new football stadium, thank you very much.)



anytime girliemine!

also? football = shiney smecksie incoming $$$

edumacashun = uhm.........:crickets:


yeah.....that sums it up....

[Bean]

Back in the day my grandmother taught school..... and she never even graduated high school. That said, this was back in the 30's.

Anyway, there are too few teachers out there who teach because they love the job. It's like that in any industry. There are alot of issues with the NCLB the least of which is teaching to the pace of the slowest learner in the class. No wonder the American education system ranks as one of the lowest of industrialized nations. If a child can't learn the material in a year, make them repeat the grade. It worked when I was in school.....

[Peaches O Malley]

Back in the day my grandmother taught school..... and she never even graduated high school. That said, this was back in the 30's.

Anyway, there are too few teachers out there who teach because they love the job. It's like that in any industry. There are alot of issues with the NCLB the least of which is teaching to the pace of the slowest learner in the class. No wonder the American education system ranks as one of the lowest of industrialized nations. If a child can't learn the material in a year, make them repeat the grade. It worked when I was in school.....

There are many instances where teachers are told they can't hold a child back..for any reason.

Also, for an ELL (English language learner) to aquire the English language...it takes approx 5-7 years. And contrary to what some people seem to think..children do not all learn at the same speed/level and in the same way....un-like what NCLB seems to think. :unamused:

[Gemdrite]

Anyway, there are too few teachers out there who teach because they love the job. It's like that in any industry.
I am going to have to slightly disagree. Teaching isn't worth getting into if you don't love it. It doesn't pay enough, and the only benefits truly worth the job aren't something that someone who doesn't love the job would understand (that light when a child finally understands something, for example.) That being said, the amount of work expected of teachers nowadays from parents, students, and the government burns teachers out soooo much quicker than it used to, and it is hard to stay positive, optimistic, and just plain happy. We start out gung-ho, excited, thinking we are going to change the world through the children. After so many years of the government telling us what to do, parents blaming us for their children, children not being held accountable for their actions (or the lack thereof,) teachers are worn out. But it is the absolute sucky parents, the ones who got into the job because they thought they would have summers off and long vacations, who make it in the news for the stupid things they do.

As far as the language thing that started this thread...unfortunately, college grad doesn't mean squat when it comes to the English language. Our world, or at least America, has gotten very lax in its use and abuse of the English language, and speech that would not have been acceptable in our grandparents world is unfortunately commonplace today. Many people don't even know it's wrong anymore. And it drives us English majors crazy!!!! :lol:

[Winifred Baskerville]

Teaching is NOT a 7-3/8-4, summers off job people. It's an up-hill battle fought by mostly highly qualified teachers making NOT highly qualified money. I am tired of seeing a few crap teachers being held up as an example of "who are teaching our children."

My mom's a teacher in Northern (lower) Michigan, and from my experience with that and from what I've heard elsewhere, what Peaches says is true almost across the board. I saw the boy's basketball team get spiffy new uniforms every year (which came from the school budget, iirc-extras like warm-up togs and sweatshirts were gotten thru fund raising), while the art teacher had to take money out of her own meagre paycheck to purchase basic materials for her class. Now, with funding cutbacks, the art teacher and the computer sciences teacher are wondering if they'll have jobs in the next 2-3 years!

The current educational climate, along with NCLB, are among the reasons that I've chosen not to become a teacher. The main one is that while I think I'd be a cool teacher, I wouldn't be an effective teacher, and would probably burn out after 3 years.

[Winifred Baskerville]

As far as the language thing that started this thread...unfortunately, college grad doesn't mean squat when it comes to the English language. Our world, or at least America, has gotten very lax in its use and abuse of the English language, and speech that would not have been acceptable in our grandparents world is unfortunately commonplace today. Many people don't even know it's wrong anymore. And it drives us English majors crazy!!!! :lol:

One thing I picked up from my grandad, which I am very grateful for, is his habit of correcting grammar and pronunciation. *grin*

[Bean]

We have things that come out of our corporate office that sound like they were written by a third grader. That is completely unacceptable to me. I don't understand how hard it is to proof read something. But, if the education level of the proofer isn't any better than the writer, I guess this is what comes out of it.

One of my biggest pet peeves............ than vs. then

[Gemdrite]

My mom's a teacher in Northern (lower) Michigan, and from my experience with that and from what I've heard elsewhere, what Peaches says is true almost across the board. I saw the boy's basketball team get spiffy new uniforms every year (which came from the school budget, iirc-extras like warm-up togs and sweatshirts were gotten thru fund raising), while the art teacher had to take money out of her own meagre paycheck to purchase basic materials for her class. Now, with funding cutbacks, the art teacher and the computer sciences teacher are wondering if they'll have jobs in the next 2-3 years!
Please keep in mind though, that fundraising is exactly what the art teacher could do too, if she wanted to, and that donations to the school are generally earmarked for specific purposes. I actually talked to my principal about this in high school cause it bugged the heck out of me that the boys basketball teams got new unis every single year, down to the shoes, but the girls teams had to fundraise or make do. He said that the money that the boys get for their uniforms comes from people donating the money to the school, but saying, "Use it for the boys basketball team." Or whatever department. Now, I am not saying this is always the case, but it is something to keep in mind when looking at what appears to be unfair.

[surlywench]

We have things that come out of our corporate office that sound like they were written by a third grader. That is completely unacceptable to me. I don't understand how hard it is to proof read something. But, if the education level of the proofer isn't any better than the writer, I guess this is what comes out of it.

One of my biggest pet peeves............ than vs. then

You're = you are
your = possessive

their= possessive
they're = they are
there = a place

That being said.....the english language does go thru a certain amount of flux, but most spellings have been standardized for about what, 100 years or so now? I get a kick out of reading letters written in QEI's time. The shorthand notations are nuts, and it really gives you an idea of just how phonectically even the Queen approached the written word ;)

[Gemdrite]

You're = you are
your = possessive

their= possessive
they're = they are
there = a place

That being said.....the english language does go thru a certain amount of flux, but most spellings have been standardized for about what, 100 years or so now? I get a kick out of reading letters written in QEI's time. The shorthand notations are nuts, and it really gives you an idea of just how phonectically even the Queen approached the written word ;)
Phonetics would be so nice. It would be much easier to spell. There would be no need for the letter C.

And you just hit on two of my pet peeves, along with:

to - a preposition
too - in addition; excessively
two - 2

And you do not ax someone a question, you ask them. You didn't seen something, you saw it. I will not borrow you something, but I will lend you it.

[surlywench]

Phonetics would be so nice. It would be much easier to spell. There would be no need for the letter C.

And you just hit on two of my pet peeves, along with:

to - a preposition
too - in addition; excessively
two - 2

And you do not ax someone a question, you ask them. You didn't seen something, you saw it. I will not borrow you something, but I will lend you it.

a lot = much of something

:)

you know it's funny when it's a macro...but infuriating when it's a document....why is that? lol

[LdyJhawk]

Here in Mountain View there is a business that has a sign out front proclaiming "BAD CREDIT?! YOUR APPROVED!"

It never fails that I almost start twitching with the desire to go in and ask them, "My WHAT is approved?!"

[Mistress Morigianna]

we need those school house rock videos again!!!!

[Winifred Baskerville]

Phonetics would be so nice. It would be much easier to spell. There would be no need for the letter C.

Or the letter X...

I will not borrow you something, but I will lend you it.

Rather, I will lend it to you. ;)

[Winifred Baskerville]

One of my biggest pet peeves............ than vs. then

ooh... "Effect vs. Affect" and "Accept vs. Except"

[Gellis Indigo]

Wander vs. Wonder.

Fiscal vs. Physical.

[Capt. Stamina]

Not being a teacher I have to ask. What would school be like if there wasn't any federal involvement in it?

[RaevynCait]

IMHO, a huge part of the problem with the current education system (at least here in TX) is that teachers aren't allowed to teach what the kids will need in the real world, like grammar, but rather they have to teach to the TAKS (our current standardized, statewide test that the kids take during certain grade years). All they are teaching the children, really, is how to take a standardized test. Let me think :thinking:, when was the last time I used my ability to take a standardized test.... :oooh: OOH, I know, 1997, when I took the GRE, thinking I would go to grad school! Before that, 1984 or '85 when I took my SAT's.

That being said, I considered teaching, and had I gone that direction, I would have been a 3rd generation teacher in TX. By the time I was ready to start taking the education courses, in about '95, I saw the drama & BS that the local schools (which at one time were among the best in the area) were going through, and knew that I did NOT want to be involved in that mess!

I too have had a tendency to be offended by the poor grammar that seems to run rampant. Never mind the spelling errors I see on a regular basis, in all sorts of documents! My mother & grandmother were both English teachers and had no qualms about correcting our grammar growing up, as well as reading most of our papers before we turned them in when we were in high school. (I'm here to tell you, it sucks being graded at home before you even turn your homework in) {I came very close to vetoing my assistant when we interviewed her because her resume states "memos, filing, coping" as one of her skills. Now, I assume that she intended it to say copying, but I might be wrong. It comes as no surprise to me that of the dozens of resumes she's sent (some of them faxed from here) in search of a full time position, she's not had a single interview.}

One of my grandmother's favorite sayings was "Behind the preposition at" when someone said "Where is XYZ at?" I periodically channel her and hear it coming out of my mouth ::whistle::

[LadyLaura]

With all this talk about teaching today, I just have to comment on behalf of my mother. She was a teacher for 30+ years, and retired about 8 years ago. She is still involved part time. My sister teaches ESL now, she is actually in charge of ESL for a district, and I am in school counseling. My mother says that with the direction that teaching has gone in now, she would never even consider going into teaching again. It is all about scores, and preparing for standardized tests. Class sizes are huge. Resources are slim. Teachers and students are often asked to provide basic supplies such as crayons, rulers, pencils and glue that were normally provided by the school. Students are expected to begin reading in kindergarten. According to my mother (a former reading consultant as well as a classroom teacher), that is just too early developmentally for many of them, and sets the stage for failure if they can't keep up. The schools only provide extra help for those who are failing very badly. Those who are also struggling, but squeeking by, don't receive help. A lot of the work is expected to be completed at home, with the help of a parent. When that doesn't happen, once again, the child is out of luck. The climate in the schools because of NCLB and other mandates is turning cut throat and nasty. My mother said it never used to be that way, colleagues used to help each other, now it seems to be everyone for themselves. The focus on the children and teaching them the best way possible has been thrown over in favor of teaching to the tests and jumping through administrative hoops. It is getting tougher and tougher to be a great teacher in the climate that is being created today. She is very much saddened by the state of the schools now, as opposed to what things were like back when she started, and through most of her career. She is hoping that this is another "phase" and that things will get turned back around somehow. I hope she's right, but I don't see any end in sight.

[surlywench]

Not being a teacher I have to ask. What would school be like if there wasn't any federal involvement in it?


I'm not sure how many private (religious based) schools get *any* help from the federal government, but they have the revenue from their associated church to help with costs. If I can, I'll be sending my daughter to private school simply because in this area the class sizes are smaller and the quality of environment higher. The issue is that for the parents who cant afford private schooling (or who don't want any religion in the classroom) where will the schools get money to operate (state and local taxes aren't cutting it)? How will they be held accountable for the money they do get? NCLB, much like communism, really only was a good idea....until someone tried to implement it.

[Gemdrite]

Or the letter X...



Rather, I will lend it to you. ;)
That is the easier way to say it, and more pleasing to one's ear, but technically, the way I said was grammatically correct, just, odd. I said it that way to match my first two examples though.

And I'll be honest, affect and effect still confuse me. That one I can forgive, mostly cause I probably won't know if it is wrong. No matter how many times I study those two, I still mix them up. Maybe someday it will click.

As far as how private schools get money from the government? The money *must* be used for non-religious things, such as calculators, desks, math textbooks...those kinds of things. And, believe it or not, religious schools don't get nearly the money they need from the church. The average cost of educating one student for a year these days is approx. $10,000 (according to statistics read by the first grade teacher to the parents at our back to school night, so I can't give you links or anything for proof. But it isn't the first time I've heard that number.) Most religious schools don't ask parents to pay ten thou in tuition, so the money has to come from somewhere. And class sizes across the country are getting higher even in religious schools. With many religious schools shutting down due to lack of funds, and more people wanting to get into them for the "better" education, class sizes are soaring. I just found out that my old school raised class limits to 30 per class, from 24, and they cut the funding for the aides in the lower classrooms. It's ridiculous in all schools, not just the public ones.

[LdyJhawk]

aks vs oh..ask. OMG ASK people! SERIOUSLY

Irregardless? = not a word. Take that to heart

I love the internet but, god knows, it is probably the worst thing that has happened to the english language in a long time

[Bean]

My nephew is a senior. He had English homework the other night and I happened to be there. He was to read some information and then visually depict the info. I read the assignment. The first sentence wasn't even a sentence; no subject or verb, just alot of descriptors. Then there was "uninterruptedly". Is that even a word? And the use of punctuation was sketchy at best.

I remind you, he is a high school SENIOR..........

[Selena]

My mother says that with the direction that teaching has gone in now, she would never even consider going into teaching again.

Same here. Both of my parents were teachers. My father made it to retirement, bitching about it the entire way, but my mother quit teaching long before retirement. She loved teaching... but hated the establishment.

[Gellis Indigo]

Same here. Both of my parents were teachers. My father made it to retirement, bitching about it the entire way, but my mother quit teaching long before retirement. She loved teaching... but hated the establishment.

Wow, that sounds like someone I know.....oh wait....it's ME!! :unamused:

[Capt. Stamina]

On a fluke I turned on a movie named Idiocracy (sp?) about an average guy who gets frozen for 500 years and comes out of deep freeze and is the smartest guy on the planet. I know it was done tongue in cheek, but damn I could see some similarity to the world around us.

[Selena]

[quote=Capt. Stamina;223938]On a fluke I turned on a movie named Idiocracy (sp?)


Own it. Many similarities to today's world. Yup.

[lavender r dragon]

about an average guy who gets frozen for 500 years and comes out of deep freeze and is the smartest guy on the planet.

bet he was the only man with "personal responsiblity" too. that seems to be getting rare these days too;-)