Excuses, excuses

[Gellis Indigo]

After reading the thread about Michael Vick and people trying to justify why he was involved in the dog fighting, and a local incident, I'm just wondering what happened to the idea of personal responsibility?

A week and a half ago a local school assistant principal left her 2 year old in her car for 8 hours, on a day where the temp. rose to over 100 degrees. As soon as the story broke people started giving reasons why this woman may have done what she did. It was obvious that it was a mistake and she is very distraught over it. But the excuses I heard ranged from "School just started so she wasn't used to her routine yet", to "We don't know what kind of medications she was on or was supposed to be on that may have caused forgetfulness".
The local prosecutor's office has decided not to charge this woman for the death of her child. I have mixed feeling about this. How do all of you feel about this decision?

But again, my question is, what has happened to personal responsibility? What has happened to taking responsibility for your own actions? What has happened to holding people accountable?

[Jayden2298]

People have no personal accountability in today's society. People are not required to have it. Any issue can be justified away, especially if you are creative enough. It infuriates me.

[surlywench]

After reading the thread about Michael Vick and people trying to justify why he was involved in the dog fighting, and a local incident, I'm just wondering what happened to the idea of personal responsibility?

A week and a half ago a local school assistant principal left her 2 year old in her car for 8 hours, on a day where the temp. rose to over 100 degrees. As soon as the story broke people started giving reasons why this woman may have done what she did. It was obvious that it was a mistake and she is very distraught over it. But the excuses I heard ranged from "School just started so she wasn't used to her routine yet", to "We don't know what kind of medications she was on or was supposed to be on that may have caused forgetfulness".
The local prosecutor's office has decided not to charge this woman for the death of her child. I have mixed feeling about this. How do all of you feel about this decision?

But again, my question is, what has happened to personal responsibility? What has happened to taking responsibility for your own actions? What has happened to holding people accountable?



I'm really, really sorry, but the pain, agony and unending grief this woman will have to live with is accountability enough in that case. There's a difference between an awful, tragic accident such as this, and a deliberate attempt to 1. ignore the law and 2. willfully subject another being to torture and worse.

Accidents _happen_ .

[LadyLaura]

People want an explanation that they can rationalize, that makes sense to them, that is out of the ordinary "I just forgot", so that they can be comforted by the fact that THEY won't "just forget", and it won't happen to them. I think not charging her is due to the fact that the emotional pain that she will suffer because of the tragedy is more than the punishment any court could ever give her, and the fact that it wasn't an intentional act.

I think these things are a function of our society being just too much in a hurry about everything. People need to SLOW DOWN and stop trying to do a million things at once.

[MaidenFaeSnow]

Even though personal responsibility does need to play into this, and into everyones life - and obviously therefore it's a valid arguement, compassion needs to be a factor too. To argue solely for personal responsibility is to expect that everyone should act perfectly. Everyone will make mistakes, even moms. Unfortunately this was a horribly tragic one. The prosecutor obviously took that into consideration and I would hope that she would have at least been given some community service hours to complete if punnished, perhaps in educating others in the importance of NOT leaving children unattended in vehicles under any circumstance as I think that could also have assisted in her grieving process.

[Gellis Indigo]

So far the prosecutor is stating that they can not prove that any crime was committed. So there has been no official punishment.
And yes, I agree that the pain this woman will suffer with for the rest of her life is quite a punishment.
HOWEVER, having just finished watching the news, the police have done many interviews and discovered that this woman has a history of leaving this child in the car. A day care provider even requested that she no longer leave the child in the car when she picked up an older sibling.
And yes, mistakes happen. But most mistakes don't end up with the death of a 2 year old. Given that she did leave her child in her car on previous occasions and it was pointed out to her that it was not acceptable, it seems as if this was not merely a mistake, but a habit.

[surlywench]

So far the prosecutor is stating that they can not prove that any crime was committed. So there has been no official punishment.
And yes, I agree that the pain this woman will suffer with for the rest of her life is quite a punishment.
HOWEVER, having just finished watching the news, the police have done many interviews and discovered that this woman has a history of leaving this child in the car. A day care provider even requested that she no longer leave the child in the car when she picked up an older sibling.
And yes, mistakes happen. But most mistakes don't end up with the death of a 2 year old. Given that she did leave her child in her car on previous occasions and it was pointed out to her that it was not acceptable, it seems as if this was not merely a mistake, but a habit.

Is leaving a child in the car punishable under neglect in your state? If it is, then the court has a case against her. If it's not....then I dont know what they can do aside from go straight for unintentional manslaughter (or whatever the term is). There are a handful of "kids left in cars" cases every year, most are never prosecuted b/c they are well and truly accidents. If this was different, and they're able to move on it, I hope they do. But honestly, at this point there's nothing they could do that will be any worse than her life, every day, in the community.

[Drea Beth]

I'm really, really sorry, but the pain, agony and unending grief this woman will have to live with is accountability enough in that case. There's a difference between an awful, tragic accident such as this, and a deliberate attempt to 1. ignore the law and 2. willfully subject another being to torture and worse.

Accidents _happen_ .

Sorry, leaving a child in a car for 8 hours is not an accident. It's an act that requires a conscious decision, and, especially on a hot day, is "willfully subjecting another being to torture or worse". There is never a reason to leave a child that young in a car, or any small child, for that matter.

Can you imagine what that poor baby must have felt? The mother needs to be held accountable. It was mentioned that this happens a few times a year, and those cases are well publicized. One would hope that others learn from those cases, but I guess not.

[surlywench]

Sorry, leaving a child in a car for 8 hours is not an accident. It's an act that requires a conscious decision, and, especially on a hot day, is "willfully subjecting another being to torture or worse". There is never a reason to leave a child that young in a car, or any small child, for that matter.

Can you imagine what that poor baby must have felt? The mother needs to be held accountable. It was mentioned that this happens a few times a year, and those cases are well publicized. One would hope that others learn from those cases, but I guess not.

No, it does not require a conscious decision. Quite a few of these cases make national headlines and are almost always accompanied by psychologists' input on how something like this can happen when the parent is distracted, the routine is changed for some reason and the human brain goes on automatic pilot during a rushed morning. I challenge you to say in the faces of parents who have gone thru such a horrific experience that they did it on purpose. While in this case, the woman in question had a history of leaving the child in the car, in many other cases, that has not (at least publicly) been seen as a contributing factor.

And yes, I can very well imagine what that child went thru having been locked in a car when I was younger - ACCIDENTALLY. Much as I have issues with my mom, I would NEVER EVER accuse her of consciously deciding that locking me into the car was somethng she should do on purpose. Every single case is different but they all share the element of a distracted, rushed parent.

I realize I'm not going to change the minds of anyone who's decided that anyone who would leave their child in a car is an Awful Parent and should be punished to the fullest extent of human experience, but all I'm trying to say is that in many of these cases the parents are good, loving and responsible adults and parents. It's awful, horrific, and unthinkable....and that's the worst part..you *never* think it'll happen to you and your child b/c you're sooo much more responsible and better than "someone who would do that"..... but we're *all* capable of it. We're *all* human. We *all* have that "autopilot" switch in our brains.

I don't know how to make the point any better than this. So I'm going to leave it alone now.

[Bonnie Strangeways]

Hmm, I dunno... a newborn infant....that I can see... where a new parent is unused to a routine of getting the diaper bag, the baby, and then the other accoutrements of daily life in and out of the vehichle and into the house on a daily basis. I hear about those cases all the time, and I comminsurate with the tragedy of a young life lost, and the gut-wrenching grief that those poor parents must live with for the rest of their lives. It's HARD to get into that new routine...I remember, it's a complete life adjustment. (I used to always forget the diaper wipes...but that's another matter...)

But a 2 year old? I'm having a hard time with that one. That's a long time to have established the pattern, to have made that adjustment and gotten used to the routine of bringing the tot everywhere. (Even leaving aside the report that the woman *may* have had a pattern of abandonment.) A 2 year old has the beginnings of a sense of reasoning, and they, in many cases, can speak, so unless the tot was fast asleep, (which is entirely possible, rendering this part of the argument invalid) there would have been *some* noise to cue the absent-minded professor in the front seat that she might be forgetting something. (sorry, the sarcasm slipped) Even with the adjustment of school starting...ummm, yeah, the tot's 2, which implies that the child was alive last school year....so Mommy-dearest had a brain-fart over a three month vacation (do principal's even get the full 2 1/2 or 3 months that the kids do???) and suddenly forgot a routine that was well-established over 75% of the baby's existing life? (I'm not a matmatician...so yeah, I pulled that percentile out of you-know...but it seemed pretty reasonable.) Somehow, I'm not buying it.

On a side note, isn't it passing curious how the mother in these cases is rarely if ever prosecuted, yet if a Father does this very same thing, public opinion, and more often than not, the Prosecuting Attorney's office is more of the "hang 'em high" mentality?

[Bonnie Strangeways]

No, it does not require a conscious decision. Quite a few of these cases make national headlines and are almost always accompanied by psychologists' input on how something like this can happen when the parent is distracted, the routine is changed for some reason and the human brain goes on automatic pilot during a rushed morning. I challenge you to say in the faces of parents who have gone thru such a horrific experience that they did it on purpose. While in this case, the woman in question had a history of leaving the child in the car, in many other cases, that has not (at least publicly) been seen as a contributing factor.

And yes, I can very well imagine what that child went thru having been locked in a car when I was younger - ACCIDENTALLY. Much as I have issues with my mom, I would NEVER EVER accuse her of consciously deciding that locking me into the car was somethng she should do on purpose. Every single case is different but they all share the element of a distracted, rushed parent.

I realize I'm not going to change the minds of anyone who's decided that anyone who would leave their child in a car is an Awful Parent and should be punished to the fullest extent of human experience, but all I'm trying to say is that in many of these cases the parents are good, loving and responsible adults and parents. It's awful, horrific, and unthinkable....and that's the worst part..you *never* think it'll happen to you and your child b/c you're sooo much more responsible and better than "someone who would do that"..... but we're *all* capable of it. We're *all* human. We *all* have that "autopilot" switch in our brains.

I don't know how to make the point any better than this. So I'm going to leave it alone now.

Oh no Surlywench, I agree with you, we all have an "autopilot" switch, and we are DEFINATELY capable of horrible mistakes. I'm just not reallly convinced that this case is one. A newborn infant, or even a few months old... but 2 years old is a long time to have established that routine, to have gotten used to that symbiotic being in their life.

[MaidenFaeSnow]

The things that really rubs me the wrong way in this particular case is that the child was in the car EIGHT hours! ALL DAY! Even if mom is checking on her every 5 minutes, eights hours is far too long to be in the car. I know it happens, say, on long car trips to somewhere or something from time to time (and I would hope in those cases the child is brought out of the car every couple of hours to walk about and play a little) but this child was in the car all damned day!

My air conditioning will keep my car cooled fine with it sitting in one place (and from what we've seen on our local news she didn't have the air on for the child) but heat aside, I would get ansy and need to stretch my legs and move around after a while, how could this child have been feeling.

[Ravin' Raven]

Ironically, while reading this thread a news story came on about a father in Nevada who left his infant in the car for two hours WHILE HE WAS IN A BROTHEL!!!! You know they will throw the book at him...

Stupid, stupid, stupid.....:irked:

[lavender r dragon]

S A day care provider even requested that she no longer leave the child in the car when she picked up an older sibling.


as everyone has pointed out by 2yrs she should be used to having the baby...but she also has an OLDER child! she should definatley be used to it.

also, the older sibling was in a daycare, there are daycares that take 2yr olds (since some parents have to work) what was she planning to do with the 2yr old?

[Gellis Indigo]

as everyone has pointed out by 2yrs she should be used to having the baby...but she also has an OLDER child! she should definatley be used to it.

also, the older sibling was in a daycare, there are daycares that take 2yr olds (since some parents have to work) what was she planning to do with the 2yr old?

The older sibling was not in the car. I haven't heard where he/she was on that day.

One story I heard is that she stopped at the school to drop off doughnuts for the staff and was just going to run in and then take the 2 year old to her childcare provider. But apparently she got side-tracked or something and never made it back to her car.

[lavender r dragon]

that makes a little more sense, thanks!

[Gellis Indigo]

Here's a link to a local news station that broke this story. It includes the released video of the mother answering police questions.

http://www.local12.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=20084@video.wkrc.com&navCatId=5

If you watch past the first segment you see much more of the police interview.

Yes, she is distraught. Yes she shows remorse. But if we go by the "we don't charge people for accidents" theory, then there would be a lot of people getting away with a lot of crimes.

Don't get me wrong. I feel for this woman, I truly do.
But the fact that the law against endangerment of a child doesn't include negligence makes me sick to my stomach.

[Gemdrite]

Ya know, I might have agreed at one point in time about how the mother should be held responsible, for a lot of the reasons I am hearing in this thread. Until yesterday.

I was leaving school and ran into a parent who was dropping her son off to band practice. The mom and I started chatting, particularly about how crazy our days were because the band schedule had changed and she came early...anyways, we were standing there talking for awhile when we heard a baby crying. She realized it was her youngest son, who is one year old. We were standing right in front of her car, and since she had planned on dropping her son and leaving, she had left the youngest in the car. Then we started talking, and she just forgot. She got him out immediately, but in the fifteen minutes we had been talking he got all sweaty and flushed. She felt awful, and it made me think of this thread. I don't consider her a bad mother. The schedule changed, she ran into someone she hadn't seen in a while, and it just happened. She is a mother of 4, so it isn't like she isn't used to the routine. These things just happened, and we were lucky we hadn't moved away from the car, so she could hear him cry. But it made me think about, what if we had walked into the church, or to my classroom, or even just farther away from the car?

That being said....8 hours? You forgot you had a 2 year old for 8 hours? Man, if I hadn't heard the child in half an hour, I would have been concerned. Plus, this woman has a history of doing it. I guess, overall, I just would have to hope the police get all the details and make the right decision.

[Bean]

If she was just running into the school to drop off donuts, how do you get distracted for 8 hours??

[Gemdrite]

If she was just running into the school to drop off donuts, how do you get distracted for 8 hours??
Now, I know this was posted as a joke, but how many of us nodded our heads while reading it because we've at least done something similar?

http://www.wench.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19231&highlight=attention

Not saying this is what happened, but getting distracted for that long isn't necessarily as rare as you might think.