Tax Rebates earmarked for Illegal Residents

[Isabelle Warwicke]

I have been opposed to this fracas since it was a twinkle in their eye. Now I really oppose it.

WASHINGTON — The $146 billion stimulus package intended to jolt the economy by giving taxpayers rebates up to $1,200 includes cash returns for illegal immigrants who pay taxes.

Under the plan passed by the House, illegal immigrants who qualify as "resident aliens" and earned a minimum of $3,000 would be eligible for rebates of between $300-$600, FOX News has learned.

Only those illegals who have been assigned an Individual Tax Identification Number that allows them to file income taxes would be eligible. Resident aliens are defined as people who spend a "substantial" amount of time in the U.S. and have not been deported.

The provision has irked illegal immigration opponents, who say the assigning of TINs and collection of taxes from illegals sanctions their presence in the country.

Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., told FOX News that the bill will certainly stimulate "more illegal immigration."

The stimulus plan met with overwhelming bipartisan support Tuesday, passing the House 385-35 with little debate after House leaders and White House negotiators came to agreement last week.

Full Story (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,326346,00.html)

This is a bad idea. Very bad.

[BryanPopp]

Most of the illegal & legal workers from Mexico that I have delt with send most of their money back to family in Mexico. So that's a lot of money stimulating the wrong economy.

[Capt. Stamina]

Remember, if the Dems don’t do any Hispandering at all, they’re not going to get the illegal’s to vote for them.

[Just a visiting rogue]

I may well be missing something, but doesn't the fact that they have the TIN's and are paying taxes on their income, etc, make them something other than illegal residents? Can anyone get these TINs, or does it require a work visa or something similar? Are they actually here illegally, or as legal, documented workers who happen to hold citizenship somewhere else?

For clarification, I am not arguing if they should get the rebate or not, just trying to understand their actual status.

[Phoenix McHeit]

I have been opposed to this fracas since it was a twinkle in their eye. Now I really oppose it.



So, what are your reasons for being opposed to it from the get-go. I mean, if this new detail 'really' makes you oppose it, what was the problem before?

And no, I'm not trying to be snarky, just curious what you see as wrong with this plan?

[KissMeKate]

I may well be missing something, but doesn't the fact that they have the TIN's and are paying taxes on their income, etc, make them something other than illegal residents? Can anyone get these TINs, or does it require a work visa or something similar? Are they actually here illegally, or as legal, documented workers who happen to hold citizenship somewhere else?

I think it's a limbo kind of thing. If you don't claim more than $3K in income, you don't have to file your taxes. That's my understanding from what I have heard from the news, but I have not looked into it.

[Phoenix McHeit]

Under the plan passed by the House, illegal immigrants who qualify as "resident aliens"



How can one qualify as the other?


resident alien –noun

1.an alien who has legally established residence in the U.S.

2.an alien who has legally entered the U.S. as an immigrant with the intention of becoming a citizen.

[LdyJhawk]

Now I could be wrong but my resident alien friend Kim (who, despite being married to a US Citizen and living here since she was 8..she's now 31) has to pay taxes and so forth. She is here legally. You can't be qualified as a resident alien if you aren't here legally...they have paper trails, tax numbers..it's all drawn out.

Erik, another res alien LEFT the US Because they were going to revoke his status as a resident alien when he was unemployed for over a year.

[DoñaNina]

Hispandering? o_O

[RichardMacHugely]

>>>Hispandering<<<

Republicans of a certain ilk are just trying to cause widespread hispanic.

[DoñaNina]

Wait, you mean they're trying to get people to panic about Hispanic people? Or they're trying to get more Hispanic people to vote for them? For somereason when I saw you write "hispanic" I thought it might by a combination of "Hispanic" and "panic". Please correct me, I'm a little confused.

[Tink]

Most of the illegal & legal workers from Mexico that I have delt with send most of their money back to family in Mexico. So that's a lot of money stimulating the wrong economy.

I agree. It negates the whole reason for giving a rebate if the money doesn't end up being spent IN America.

Personally, I'm not so sure that giving ANYONE this rebate is going to help stimulate the economy and it worries me that we already have a huge deficit and now we're adding to it to hand out money with no guarantee that in doing so, it will fix our economic issues here. I mean I get the idea of it; that to most people it will be like "found" money and they'll run out and spend it on something, rather than invest it, therefore the money will go back into circulation and boost revenue for businesses, etc. which will hopefully stimulate the economy. However, I don't know if it will do enough to warrant doing it at all if we have an even larger deficit as a result. :shrug:

[Tink]

Wait, you mean they're trying to get people to panic about Hispanic people? Or they're trying to get more Hispanic people to vote for them? For somereason when I saw you write "hispanic" I thought it might by a combination of "Hispanic" and "panic". Please correct me, I'm a little confused.

I think what Richard was going for in a comedic manner, was that some Republican's create panic amongst the Hispanic population. Just playing off the word Captain Stamina used: "hispandering" meaning that politicians say what Hispanics want to hear in order to gain their votes at election time.

However, they can better clarify for themselves. I suppose. ;-)

[DoñaNina]

Ah ha, that makes sense. Thank you!

[Capt. Stamina]

And captain, concerning pandering to illegals: no one panders more than your damned Republicans. It was bush that crawled on his knees to Mexico City to lick Fox's boots and to promise him that we would not dare enforce our immigration laws and that he would work for amnesty. It was bush that allowed Fox to tour American cities decrying our laws and rallying illegals. McCain is an open border / amnesty advocate (except he flip flops so rapidly you need a stop action camera to catch him holding the same opinion for more than a second). Romney has flipped recently but will flop with the political winds. Of all the candidates, only Paul understands the issue but he is insane on all other issues and unelectable, thus not worth mentioning. Bush opened the doors for this latest flood because his buddies need cheap labor to exploit and he will leave the mess for Democrats to deal with.


OK, first of all they aren't 'my' Republicans. I'm not a 'Republican'; I am a conservative. I believe in free enterprise and limited Government intervention into our lives and there are those with a "D" and an "R" behind their name that actually meet that criteria.

Personally I didn't like the amnesty the CIC was willing to push down our throats. I don't like the fact that many in congress went along with the amnesty plan and am very happy that the shamnisty bill was rejected. In fact I still have a listing as to who voted for and against the bill and will make reference to it when it comes time to vote for my state representatives.

Juan McAmnisty (John McCain) was one of the biggest culprits of the illegal shamnisty fiasco and I do not trust him to hold the position of CIC because he would most likely pass some law similar to the shamnisty plan if in office. I also believe he is too ill tempered and is too liberal in his voting record to ensure a positive progression of our country in the future.

But since you did bring it up, I would really like to see evidence from your allegations. I want to see the evidence that our Pres was on his knees crawling to Mexico city. I would also like to see the confirmation of him licking someone’s boots. If you don't have this, then perchance you might have some written documentation from creditable sources that this all occurred. If so, present them. I'm sure that everyone here, including myself, would be most anxious to see your proof. Same goes with all of your other accusations. Where is your verification that this is totally an "R" responsibility? Present it; and sorry, but one editorial from the Treason (NY) Times won't suffice. You'll need to produce something more than a Dan Rather type memo. Or is it that you have no corroboration? Maybe you're content with having illegals in our country? That's your decision and you're free to have it. I really don't want to know.

Maybe the problem I have is that I understand that the Pres is mostly a figurehead for the country and it's easy to put the blame on him and not on our Congress for many of the problems the country has. However the Pres does provide a direction for which the country does tend to move.

The current CIC has less than a year remaining. Rather than take pot shots at someone that's not going to have much of an impact in the future for our country, I am now putting my focus on the limited choices that are being presented to lead our country for the next four years. While not being impressed with any of the candidates being presented, maybe instead of exerting all of the effort in bashing the current Pres, we all might want to invest a bit of time in researching the background of the candidates currently running and make an informed decision as to who we'd like to lead the country. And rather than pay attention to whether they have a "D" or an "R" behind their name, look at what they stand for, how they voted on key legislation, what they are saying, what they have done, and what they intend to do when they take office. Once you've done that, then do the same for those who represent you for congress. Perchance then we all might have representatives we can all be proud of to present our country to the world.

[Isabelle Warwicke]

So, what are your reasons for being opposed to it from the get-go. I mean, if this new detail 'really' makes you oppose it, what was the problem before?

And no, I'm not trying to be snarky, just curious what you see as wrong with this plan?

The money that is going to be "rebated" to us is being borrowed from China.

[Phoenix McHeit]

The current CIC has less than a year remaining. Rather than take pot shots at someone that's not going to have much of an impact in the future for our country, I am now putting my focus on the limited choices that are being presented to lead our country for the next four years. While not being impressed with any of the candidates being presented, maybe instead of exerting all of the effort in bashing the current Pres, we all might want to invest a bit of time in researching the background of the candidates currently running and make an informed decision as to who we'd like to lead the country. And rather than pay attention to whether they have a "D" or an "R" behind their name, look at what they stand for, how they voted on key legislation, what they are saying, what they have done, and what they intend to do when they take office. Once you've done that, then do the same for those who represent you for congress. Perchance then we all might have representatives we can all be proud of to present our country to the world.

Y'know Capn - there are times when steam comes out my ears from reading some of your posts. But not this time.

Thank you; well said.

[RichardMacHugely]

>>>>Wait, you mean they're trying to get people to panic about Hispanic people?<<<<

Yes, exactly. I was riffing on the Capt'n's use of the word "hispandering". Just as Mr. Bush has spent the last seven years trying to keep us in a state of fear over terrorism, Republicans are now trying to make people afraid of illegal immigration.

[Capt. Stamina]

This isn't grade school. I asked you for something and now I have to show you something first? I want to see something that shows the CIC crawling on his knees and licking someones boots. Those are your words, now back them up.

And I don't care what the main-stream media said about it. There's been a non-stop anti-Bush slant from these people since he took office, so using them doesn't provide a basis of support to me.

I'm glad you feel that you get your dollars worth from your taxes and that the Govt. doesn't interfere in your life. I guess I see things differently when I see the Fed. Govt. extorting money from states unless they change their DUI laws, or try to limit free speech with the McCain-Feingold Act, or passing a bill outlawing incandescent light bulbs. I must be me.

As for quotes, here's a few from Hillary:

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."

"Fairness doesn't just happen. It requires the right government policies."

"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

[Perin]

"We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society."

"Fairness doesn't just happen. It requires the right government policies."

"We are going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

I'm not a fan of Hillary's, but taken in context, I can't see how these "quotes" are so horrible.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speech/view/?id=1839
Now, we have seen for more than a century that fairness doesn't just happen. It requires the right government policies. And no one should be surprised, human nature being what it is, people will go as far as they possibly can get away with.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/marxist.asp

Headlining an appearance with other Democratic women senators on behalf of Sen. Barbara Boxer, who is up for re-election this year, Hillary Clinton told several hundred supporters - some of whom had ponied up as much as $10,000 to attend - to expect to lose some of the tax cuts passed by President Bush if Democrats win the White House and control of Congress.

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said. "We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

[Perin]

"hispandering"
"shamnisty"
"Juan McAmnisty (John McCain)"
"Treason (NY) Times"


I never understood this kind of thing. There's a conservative radio host here in Boston that does it also. Along with always calling Hillary a "fat cow" and a marxist. I don't get it. I don't find this particularly witty and to me it diminish the message you're trying to make. Is it just a way to piss off the liberals? Has anyone ever seen something like this and said to themselves, "Holy cow, the amnisty bill really is a sham!" What's the point?


The current CIC has less than a year remaining. Rather than take pot shots at someone that's not going to have much of an impact in the future for our country,

Why do I think that if it was Hillary with a year left you'd have no issues with taking pot shots?

[Isabelle Warwicke]

I'm not a fan of Hillary's, but taken in context, I can't see how these "quotes" are so horrible.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/speech/view/?id=1839


http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/marxist.asp

I can. Government is going to interfere with how *you* conduct *your* business. I want what's right for my country, not the "common good," which in this day and age, seems to pander to some of the lowest common denomonators. (She keeps using the phrase "common good." It sound Socialist to me.)

[DoñaNina]

>>>>Wait, you mean they're trying to get people to panic about Hispanic people?<<<<

Yes, exactly. I was riffing on the Capt'n's use of the word "hispandering". Just as Mr. Bush has spent the last seven years trying to keep us in a state of fear over terrorism, Republicans are now trying to make people afraid of illegal immigration.

That makes sooooo much sense. Thank you.

[Gellis Indigo]

I can. Government is going to interfere with how *you* conduct *your* business. I want what's right for my country, not the "common good," which in this day and age, seems to pander to some of the lowest common denomonators. (She keeps using the phrase "common good." It sound Socialist to me.)


::clappin: :bow: ::clappin:

[Capt. Stamina]

Don't be stupid; he obviously did not literally lick his boots.

Let’s see, you’ve done something that you complain about others doing; you lied. But since I caught you in it, you’ve resorted to insulting me. I will not lower myself to grade school mentality nor afford you the opportunity to claim being the victim and label me the evil troublemaker. Since debating has turned into personal attacks; I am now done with this thread.

[Phoenix McHeit]

Let’s see, you’ve done something that you complain about others doing; you lied. But since I caught you in it, you’ve resorted to insulting me. I will not lower myself to grade school mentality nor afford you the opportunity to claim being the victim and label me the evil troublemaker. Since debating has turned into personal attacks; I am now done with this thread.

metaphor
nouna figure of speech in which an expression is used to refer to something that it does not literally denote in order to suggest a similarity

So... you can use metaphors, insults and name-calling and it's ok - but when others do it they're 'lying' and you're suddenly above all that and are "now done with this thread".

Hmm - interesting.

And as far as 'lowering yourself to grade-school mentality' - changing the name of something to reflect your disgust or disbelief in the validity of it? That's somehow not grade-school?

I seem to recall a teacher I had in ... 7th? grade, I think. Named Mr. Weiner. That's WHY-ner. You can imagine what many of the kids called him. Compare that to your 'Hispandering, Juan McAmnesty, Treason Times' slams. That's different? How? Oh yes, my bad... 7th grade is secondary school, not grade school.

Just once - ONCE... I'd like a political debate to be about the ISSUES, without it devolving into the Slams, personal attacks, and name-calling that is so prevalent in these threads.

[Selena]

You got a picture of her with a Che tee shirt on or something.

Yeah... it's white, tight... and it's wet, baby! *rotfl*

Dude... where's my photoshop! :wink:


sorry, couldn't resist.

[Perin]

I want to see something that shows the CIC crawling on his knees and licking someones boots. Those are your words, now back them up.

Don't be stupid; he obviously did not literally lick his boots.

Let’s see, you’ve done something that you complain about others doing; you lied. But since I caught you in it, you’ve resorted to insulting me.

Are you f***ing kidding me?

[RichardMacHugely]

>>>This isn't grade school. I asked you for something and now I have to show you something first? I want to see something that shows the CIC crawling on his knees and licking someones boots. Those are your words, now back them up. <<<


I'm fairly confident that anyone above grade school level would recognize that Lefty's original comments were metaphorical. Clearly no-one is claiming that Mr. Bush LITERALLY licked anyone's footwear.

If this is the way you intended to conduct yourself in this debate, you will not be missed now that you've left!

[RichardMacHugely]

Oh, and if you're going to use military acronyms, it's CINC (or less often C-in-C), not CIC.

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

I can. Government is going to interfere with how *you* conduct *your* business. I want what's right for my country, not the "common good," which in this day and age, seems to pander to some of the lowest common denomonators. (She keeps using the phrase "common good." It sound Socialist to me.)

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


"Promote the general Welfare", isn't that the same as "common good"?




edit: okay, so someone beat me to it... I really gotta stop replying before I read through the whole thread....

[Isabelle Warwicke]

Maybe she could fax a copy over to little Bush and he could get someone to read it to him.

Don't be petty.

[Isabelle Warwicke]

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


"Promote the general Welfare", isn't that the same as "common good"?


general:of or pertaining to all persons or things belonging to a group or category
welfare:the good fortune, health, happiness, prosperity, etc., of a person, group, or organization; well-being

common:belonging equally to, or shared alike by, two or more or all in question. coarse; vulgar
good:morally virtuous, rightous. advantageous; satisfactory for the purpose. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree. right; proper; fit

I suppose for argument's sake that common good could be generalized as the same thing as general welfare, however it is a vulgar bastardization of what our ForeFathers had in mind when they put forth the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.

"General welfare" was a simple concept in it's inception at a much simpler time. "Common good" just feels like pandering.