Obama, you have a Houston problem. [Archive]

Margaret

02-13-2008, 10:45 AM

I take any and all information from a biased source with a grain of salt.

From Wikipedia: Bolding mine

Little Green Footballs (LGF) is a political blog run by California web designer Charles Johnson. In the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks, Johnson - who describes himself as "pretty much center-left before 9/11"[1] - transformed his blog's discussion of bicycle racing, programming, web design, and the occasional humorous news item into a very active discussion of the War on Terror, Islam and the Arab-Israeli conflict. Media observers have described the site as "ultraconservative" or "right wing"; observes Johnson:

I'm not pretending I'm giving equal time to both sides. But I do think what I'm advocating, and what I believe in, is the right side.

Peaches O Malley

02-13-2008, 10:57 AM

Interesting....I am having my students do research for Black History Month. Barack Obama is one of the subjects, and one of first things out of one of my students mouth was, "oooh, he's Muslim!" I spent the next 10 minutes or so explaining that Mr. Obama is not Muslim, but even if he was it wouldn't make him a bad person.

It makes me wonder....what are we teaching our children? :unamused:

DoñaNina

02-13-2008, 11:24 AM

I've heard from a respected family member, "I'm not voting for Obama because he's half Muslim."

And it made me respect them just a bit less.

Seriously, how can you be half Muslim??

If McCain wins this election, I think half of it will be for the wrong reasons, and that really sucks.

Mylilpinkpig

02-13-2008, 11:26 AM

This is one of my pet peeves. Posting something that "seems" to be true with out any proof that it is or isn't true. It's not just done with Obama it's done with all the candidates. All this false information gets out and the issues sort of take a back seat.

Gemdrite

02-13-2008, 01:10 PM

I guess you did. Is there a Muslim running?
No, I didn't miss that. He's Muslim, he's not Muslim, who cares? I was referring to the comment that he needed to "clean house." Who really cares if he is Muslim? Why does it really matter? He didn't fly the planes into the buildings, radicals did. So whether he is Muslim, he has some supporters who are Muslim, or NOBODY is Muslim, why does it matter?

Selena

02-13-2008, 01:29 PM

No, I didn't miss that. He's Muslim, he's not Muslim, who cares? I was referring to the comment that he needed to "clean house." Who really cares if he is Muslim? Why does it really matter? He didn't fly the planes into the buildings, radicals did. So whether he is Muslim, he has some supporters who are Muslim, or NOBODY is Muslim, why does it matter?

Because it matters to the perception of the right wing conservative vote.

You're right, it shouldn't matter... but it does. I personally know someone who follows that right wing crap hook line and sinker... and gets very pissed at me when I counter.

Cyranno DeBoberac

02-13-2008, 01:42 PM

*cough*Swiftboat*cough*

:roll:

Cyranno DeBoberac

02-13-2008, 01:42 PM

So wait....we aren't voting for someone, because they are Muslim? Or did I miss something in there...?
Nation of Islam : Muslim :: Fred Phelps' Church : Christian

Now, whether or not Obama actually has anything to do with NOI is another story altogether (and a story that one is more likely than not to find in the Fiction section of the bookstore).

The Wizard

02-13-2008, 01:49 PM

No, I didn't miss that. He's Muslim, he's not Muslim, who cares? I was referring to the comment that he needed to "clean house." Who really cares if he is Muslim? Why does it really matter? He didn't fly the planes into the buildings, radicals did. So whether he is Muslim, he has some supporters who are Muslim, or NOBODY is Muslim, why does it matter?
Is anyone else having a flashback to 1960? Because JFK was a devout Catholic there was a big brouhaha about whether he would try to enforce that church's strictures.

DoñaNina

02-13-2008, 01:53 PM

Is anyone else having a flashback to 1960? Because JFK was a devout Catholic there was a big brouhaha about whether he would try to enforce that church's strictures.

But he totally didn't, and I don't expect Obama to be any different if he wins.

The Wizard

02-13-2008, 02:02 PM

But he totally didn't, and I don't expect Obama to be any different if he wins.
My point being that the religion has changed but the public's attitude hasn't.

The Wizard

02-13-2008, 02:10 PM

not really, the swift boat campaign was lies.
The Swiftboat campaign started when Kerry published a picture of all the Swiftboat guys he served with and a huge group of them told him to leave them out of his campaign. They were against him and didn't want people to think otherwise. From then on it was he said/they said.

Ravin' Raven

02-13-2008, 02:13 PM

:mmph::mmph::mmph:

Bob- as usual....:bow:

Pathos

02-13-2008, 02:19 PM

there is little on the web about the church except extremist views. msnbc did do this:
It could be argued those two are one and the same.

Capt. Stamina

02-13-2008, 02:20 PM

And Kerry still hasn’t signed the release to have is 201 files open to the public, so it's still unresolved.

letitflyantiques

02-13-2008, 02:20 PM

It could be argued those two are one and the same.

but could it be argued well?

If the word 'black" on Obama's church's website was changed to "white" and "African" to "European," no candidate could belong to it without a huge uproar from liberals, moderates and anyone with sense.

Imagine if McCain was a member of a church that proclaimed itself "proudly Euro-centric."

HRC is looking better again to me.

Selena

02-13-2008, 02:25 PM

Point missed.
He needs to clean house in Houston and be rid of the people that would display a Cuban flag with a murderer' picture superimposed on it.

Errmm, no you missed my point.

I wasn't arguing with you regarding your stance about cleaning house. I didn't even address it. I was referring to Gem's statements about the rumor mill regarding Obama's religious stance and why it is a subject of discussion. That's why I quoted her in my reply.

letitflyantiques

02-13-2008, 03:04 PM

Errmm, no you missed my point.

I wasn't arguing with you regarding your stance about cleaning house. I didn't even address it. I was referring to Gem's statements about the rumor mill regarding Obama's religious stance and why it is a subject of discussion. That's why I quoted her in my reply.

I miss lots of points. Pointless, I guess. None of this is an argument for me. I just like information.

Pathos

02-13-2008, 03:13 PM

I just like information.
You just don't like linking it for others.

:snicker:

Selena

02-13-2008, 03:39 PM

I miss lots of points. Pointless, I guess. None of this is an argument for me. I just like information.

Point taken.

;-)

Lis Elfwench

02-13-2008, 06:47 PM

Well, it is true that if you check out Obama's church, they publish a magazine called "Trumpet News". And guess what the current issue has an article about? " The Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan", as they call him. And if you haven't read any of Farrakhan's speeches lately on Jews and Whites, you should. I wouldn't call him an 'honorable minister' - it would be hard to find a more hate-filled person.

http://www.trumpetmag.com/home.cfm

And also, the church has recently honored Farrakhan, as 'person of the year' I believe.

Pathos

02-13-2008, 07:10 PM

That's nothing more than guilt by association, in my opinion.

Cyranno DeBoberac

02-13-2008, 07:44 PM

That's nothing more than guilt by association, in my opinion.

Exactly. You can't really accurately judge a man by his friends, but you can get a good measure of him by his enemies.

Given the dubious nature of the people coming out swinging against Obama, I can only conclude that he's going to be a great President.

Kae

02-13-2008, 07:50 PM

Again, read all the information. If we wish to condemn the magazine for their choice of Social Leader then we should also be condemning all their supporters - don't go fly American anymore.

Obama was not on the committee that chose the winners. If he was, we would have something to talk about. Most of the other articles date back to over a year. The ones that do not, are actually favorable. There is the one article that is not but no sources can be named and none of the information can be backed up. There is a lot of information out there. I would like to look at it in the proper light. If it was written a year or two ago - let me know. Things do change and people do grow. If it was written recently - let me know. However; in all of them the accusations need to be backed up by real research not biased pandering.
Kae

Pathos

02-13-2008, 08:39 PM

A reasonable call for accountability:

http://www.jewishtimes.com/index.php/jewishtimes/news/jt/local_news/be_wary_of_obama/

Did you miss this? It's at the bottom of the page.

Editor’s Note: Sen. Obama in the past week, in comments to the Jewish media, directly addressed the above issues. For more, see http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/article/2008012820080128obamacall.html.

8-)

Pathos

02-13-2008, 09:22 PM

I think he was wrong when he said his minister had never made an anti - Semitic or anti - Israel remark but I don't want to research it.
You don't want to research it...you just want to believe it?

Not being snarky...just asking.

Pathos

02-13-2008, 10:09 PM

I think I read some along the way but don't feel like backtracking. Didn't say I believe it. it takes so long to dig through blogs to get to facts and i don't feel like doing it. i wish i could google stuff and skip the endless bloggers but i can't.
Not to be antagonistic dude but it seems over these past few weeks you just want to be able to spout your personal opinion without the annoying inconvenience of sources or any type of reference.

That's fine and all...it's your right to say whatever you want.

Just don't act surprised or offended if people start to ignore your personal opinions.

Just saying...

8-)

Isabelle Warwicke

02-14-2008, 12:41 AM

HRC is looking better again to me.

Really, she's using "Rodham" again? I thought she had dropped in for poitical purposes.

See, I won't vote for a woman who uses her original identity on a whim, depending on what she is running for. Afterall, she did leave it out of her website address. www.hillaryclinton.com (http://www.hillaryclinton.com) You either are, or you aren't. Your identity, as a woman, is not disposable.

Ysobelle

02-14-2008, 01:53 AM

I think Steve was just using it. It's what he calls her. But come on, you know you weren't going to vote for her anyway!

The Wizard

02-14-2008, 10:48 AM

I doubt if you are having a flashback to '60, you look a tad young to remember 1960.
Calling JFK a "devout" Catholic is a bit of a push. The church has a thing about the sanctity of marriage and all that so I don't think he would qualify as exactly devout.

JFK addressed the religion issue straight on and forthrightly. Obama needs to explain how he can embrace both his church and the presidency just like JFK did. If he does, no problem but he needs to do it.

Thanks for the compliment but I was in 9th grade and we had a mock presidential election. Calling JFK 'devout' was part of the flashback--that's how he appeared to everyone at the time so it was difficult for the doubters to believe that he was being forthright when he said that his religious beliefs wouldn't rule him.

My point is that if a white candidate belonged to a euro - centric church that gave a lifetime achievement award to the Grand Dragon, the media and the Obama supporters on here would be raising hell yet no one says a peep about Obama's associations. It is an issue that deserves investigation but it will be left to nutty bloggers to write about it. The media will not.

Actually there is a Democrat Senator who was a Grand Dragon and no Democrat says anything about it. For the Grand Dragon to be a problem he'd need to be a Republican/Conservative/Libertarian.

Margaret

02-14-2008, 11:18 AM

I don't find it offensive if she uses her middle initial.

The offense does not come from a woman using a middle initial or a hypen. It comes from using is depending on who she is talking to.

Such as:

Day one: Speech to 'Homemakers of America' get introduced as Hilliary Clinton.

Next Day: Speech to 'Feminists USA' get introduced as Hilliary Rodam-Clinton.

Margaret

02-14-2008, 05:38 PM

But does she actually do that? Pathos makes me post links to anything I say.
It does not matter tyo me if she uses a middle initial, that is a non-issue.
Every candidate is into marketing. Clinton and others suddenly have a drawl in the south that fades away in the north and west. Obama's speaks differently to different audiences. They all cater to their current audience.

Her middle initial is R so that seems honest enough to me.

Does she actually do that - I could not tell you. I don't believe she does.

However, Isabelle was reacting to your use of HRC here:
Really, she's using "Rodham" again? I thought she had dropped in for poitical purposes.

See, I won't vote for a woman who uses her original identity on a whim, depending on what she is running for. Afterall, she did leave it out of her website address. www.hillaryclinton.com (http://www.hillaryclinton.com) You either are, or you aren't. Your identity, as a woman, is not disposable.

and you stated this:

I see her referred to as HRC for shorthand. It took me a while to figure it out. typing is difficult for me so getting out Hillary Clinton takes a while. I don't find it offensive if she uses her middle initial. (emphasis mine, so we can follow the conversation)

I was merely giving an example of "how" using her middle initial one a whim would be offensive

Isabelle Warwicke

02-16-2008, 11:14 PM

The offense does not come from a woman using a middle initial or a hypen. It comes from using is depending on who she is talking to.

Such as:

Day one: Speech to 'Homemakers of America' get introduced as Hilliary Clinton.

Next Day: Speech to 'Feminists USA' get introduced as Hilliary Rodam-Clinton.

Thanks you, Margaret, for understanding my point and supporting it so simply and eloquently.

Lis Elfwench

02-17-2008, 12:37 AM

Obama, of course, had a totally different name until he took his current name in his early teens but no one fusses about that or sees it as deceitful.

What was his original name?

Perin

02-17-2008, 08:12 AM

Barry Soetoro

here is a link to a very anti- Obama site that gives a year by year history. I have spot checked the facts and all have seemed true. The interpretations of the facts presented is, of course, subjective and negative:
http://www.freedomsenemies.com/_more/obama.htm

According to "Freedom's Enemies",

Barack Hussein Obama Sr. (Senior) was born (http://genealogy.about.com/od/aframertrees/p/barack_obama.htm) in Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya.

Barack Hussein Obama Jr. is born on August 4th, 1961 in Honolulu, Hawaii, six months after (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/chi-0703270151mar27,0,5157609.story?page=4) they Senior and Anna wed.

He was registered under the name Barry Soetoro, serial number 203. School documents listed Barry Soetoro as an Indonesian citizen and his religion was listed as Islam.

Catholic schools accept non-Catholics worldwide. Non-Catholic students are typically excused from religious instruction and ceremony.

You'll excuse me if I don't necessarily believe his given name was Barry Soetoro.

letitflyantiques

02-17-2008, 09:20 AM

According to "Freedom's Enemies",

You'll excuse me if I don't necessarily believe his given name was Barry Soetoro.

Whatever. He does not deny it and I think he discusses it in his book.
I guess I can only suggest you search both names and weigh the evidence. He changed names when he decided he wanted to be more identified with the black community.

Here is a completely pro - Obama article from Jakarta. His teacher shows his name in the Catholic school registry as Barry Soetoro. Maybe everyone from his past, including his teachers, are all confused.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/weekender/6reporter.asp

Pathos

02-17-2008, 09:22 AM

You'll excuse me if I don't necessarily believe his given name was Barry Soetoro.
You'll excuse me if I don't necessarily believe anything from that site.

Margaret

02-17-2008, 09:52 AM

does your computer not search. try any of the hundreds of other sites.

Well, I did a Google search of "Barack Obama Real Name" and found nothing to the fact that he had ever changed his name. However, I did fine this:

http://www.mysticgames.com/famouspeople/BarackObama.htm

(Bolding is mine)

Biography: Barack Obama Barack Obama was born at the Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii to Harvard-educated economist Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a native of Kenya, and S. Ann Dunham, of Wichita, Kansas. At the time of Obama's birth, both his parents were students at the East-West Center at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Barack initially followed his Muslim father's religion, but later became a Christian.
Of his years in Hawaii, Obama has written, "The irony is that my decision to work in politics, and to pursue such a career in a big Mainland city, in some sense grows out of my Hawaiian upbringing, and the ideal that Hawaii still represents in my mind."

When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced. His father eventually returned to Kenya, and he saw his son only once more before his death in 1982. Ann Obama then married his stepfather, Lolo, another East-West Center student from Indonesia. In his early childhood while growing up with his mother, Barack used the name 'Barry'. The family then moved to Jakarta, where Obama's half-sister Maya was born (Obama has other half-siblings from his father's other marriages). When Obama was ten he returned to Hawaii under the care of his grandparents, and later his mother, for the better educational opportunities. He was enrolled in the fifth grade at Punahou School, where he graduated with honors in 1979.

I don't know how reputable the site is but according to them, 'Barry' is a nickname. So very not the same as a name change. Oh, and BTW all other hits that I pulled with that Google search state that his name is Barack Obama Jr.

So, just move along there.

Selena

02-17-2008, 10:09 AM

I don't know how reputable the site is but according to them, 'Barry' is a nickname. So very not the same as a name change. Oh, and BTW all other hits that I pulled with that Google search state that his name is Barack Obama Jr.

So, just move along there.

Thank you.
Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what name he was born with. Who cares. If the man is able to lead this country and do a good job if elected, it really don't matter to me.

letitflyantiques

02-17-2008, 10:10 AM

There is no evidence that he was ever a Muslim. His mother exposed him to different points of view, a good thing.

His name is definitely Barack Obama, Jr. It is the name he has chosen to use, thus it is his name. But until the age of 10 or 12, people knew him as Barry Soetoro. I would guess the Barry was derived from Barack, perhaps and Soetoro was his mother's name. All sensible as BHO, Sr. had departed the scene.
I am not saying it makes hime some sort of Manchuriam Muslim Candidate but I do not like the fact that so much of his life is a little foggy. He has hit the rarefied level of being untouchable by the mainstream media. They just fawn and bluster. Even snopes seems to be eager to dismiss any questions about him. Yet Clinton is bashed for using or not using her real name the exact same way 100% of the time.

Pathos

02-17-2008, 10:37 AM

Yet Clinton is bashed for using or not using her real name the exact same way 100% of the time.
With the exception of this thread I've never heard a single mention of any controversy regarding Hillary using Rodham or not.

Peaches O Malley

02-17-2008, 11:01 AM

Well, I did a Google search of "Barack Obama Real Name" and found nothing to the fact that he had ever changed his name. However, I did fine this:

http://www.mysticgames.com/famouspeople/BarackObama.htm

(Bolding is mine)

Biography: Barack Obama Barack Obama was born at the Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii to Harvard-educated economist Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a native of Kenya, and S. Ann Dunham, of Wichita, Kansas. At the time of Obama's birth, both his parents were students at the East-West Center at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Barack initially followed his Muslim father's religion, but later became a Christian.
Of his years in Hawaii, Obama has written, "The irony is that my decision to work in politics, and to pursue such a career in a big Mainland city, in some sense grows out of my Hawaiian upbringing, and the ideal that Hawaii still represents in my mind."

When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced. His father eventually returned to Kenya, and he saw his son only once more before his death in 1982. Ann Obama then married his stepfather, Lolo, another East-West Center student from Indonesia. In his early childhood while growing up with his mother, Barack used the name 'Barry'. The family then moved to Jakarta, where Obama's half-sister Maya was born (Obama has other half-siblings from his father's other marriages). When Obama was ten he returned to Hawaii under the care of his grandparents, and later his mother, for the better educational opportunities. He was enrolled in the fifth grade at Punahou School, where he graduated with honors in 1979.

I don't know how reputable the site is but according to them, 'Barry' is a nickname. So very not the same as a name change. Oh, and BTW all other hits that I pulled with that Google search state that his name is Barack Obama Jr.

So, just move along there.

Amen sister.

Phoenix McHeit

02-17-2008, 11:13 AM

His name is definitely Barack Obama, Jr. It is the name he has chosen to use, thus it is his name. But until the age of 10 or 12, people knew him as Barry Soetoro. I would guess the Barry was derived from Barack, perhaps and Soetoro was his mother's name.

From the Jakarta article you posted the link to - do you not read your own links?

Barack Obama was born to a white American mother and a black Kenyan father. The couple split up when he was two years old. Then his mother fell in love with an Indonesian named Lolo Soetoro. She married him and moved with Obama to Jakarta in 1967.

Soetoro was his stepfather's name. Simple. Why is it so hard to understand that while he was very young - and had virtually no control over it - he was known in school by the last name of the man with whom he lived?

When he had the choice later, he went back to his birth cert name. Simple. And hardly 'deceitful', as you say in post # 55.

Gemdrite

02-17-2008, 12:31 PM

Not to mention, there is quite a difference in Barack's name being changed when he was a kid and had no control over it, but sticking with his birth name now, and Hilary sometimes using Rodham, sometimes not, in her campaign now depending on who she is talking to. One happened a long time ago and had nothing to do with politics. One *might*.

Now, that being said, I don't know if she is doing that or not. Someone said that they didn't like that she couldn't pick a name and stick with it, and someone else mentioned that it *might* be politcal. All I am saying is that, even if Barack's name was different when he was a kid, it doesn't have any bearing on the politics happening now because he isn't using it to garner support. Whereas, *if* Hilary is doing that, it would be an issue to address.

Phoenix McHeit

02-17-2008, 12:43 PM

with images of the psychopathic murderer Che

Wow. This wiki has quite thoroughly discussed him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara

Of note, Che biographer Jon Lee Anderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Lee_Anderson) has contended that through his five years of research that he was "unable to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed an innocent." [61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#_note-54)

Calling him a 'psychopathic murderer' seems a bit extreme.

Despite the violent nature of the conflict, Guevara gave medical attention to all of the wounded Bolivian soldiers whom the guerrillas took prisoner, and subsequently released them. Even after his last battle at the Quebrada del Yuro, in which he had been wounded, when he was taken to a temporary holding location and saw there a number of Bolivian soldiers who had also been wounded in the fighting, he offered to give them medical care. His offer was turned down by the Bolivian officer in charge. Doesn't seem like the work of a 'psychopath'.

A photograph of Guevara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara_%28photo%29) taken by photographer Alberto Korda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Korda)[168] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#_note-150) has become one of the century's most ubiquitous images, and the portrait, transformed into a monochrome graphic, is reproduced endlessly on a vast array of merchandise, such as T-shirts, posters, cigarettes,[169] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#_note-151) coffee mugs, and baseball caps largely for profit. This fact led Argentine business analyst Martin Krauze to postulate that: “The admiration for El Che no longer extends to his politics and ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology). It’s a romantic idea of one man going to battle against the windmills, he’s a Quixote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quixote).” While British journalist Sean O’Hagan has described Che as “more Lennon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennon) than Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin)”. Seems rather appropriate for "Change".

Margaret

02-17-2008, 12:49 PM

Well, that's what happens when you use opinionated blogs and websites as your source of information.

Ysobelle

02-17-2008, 01:23 PM

Holy crap.

I don't give a flying who uses what name. I don't care what Obama was called as a kid. I don't care if Hilary uses her middle name. Hell, I don't care if she uses OBAMA'S middle name. I don't care what some chick in Texas has on her wall.

Are you gonna be a good President? Are you gonna lead this country with intelligence, honour, and respect? Are you going to do the best damn job you can? Yes? Good. Let's talk.

surlywench

02-17-2008, 04:36 PM

Ravin' Raven

02-17-2008, 04:46 PM

I don't see the difference between HRC and HC. Those names have nothing to do with her identity, only how the public percieves her. I think there's more wrong with a bunch of people who judge a person b/c they did or did not keept their "own" last name when they married. Get over it. It's a name. It's not who or what you are, or what you stand for. It's a way to pick a person out of the several billion *other* people on the planet.

and it's not even always unique.

Especially as a woman who has changed her name four times (two marriages and back to "given" twice) and is about to change it for a fifth (AND FINAL!!!! time)....who gives a rat's ass (boy rat's have a lot of ass to give around here). And....It's not necessarily Hillary herself I see doing this but the various people introducing her and the news programs. Maybe even if she has a preference she just has more important things on her mind than to correct people constantly. Because you KNOW that if she did someone would blow that out of proportion and make a big deal out of it....

Apropos

02-17-2008, 05:00 PM

OMG call the Secret Service...call the Pentagon....call someone's mother. My daughter used another name in elementary school to make things easier. I remarried and instead of confusing everyone since I was a teacher in the district, we made the choice to register under my married name, not her birth name. Jimeny Christmas.

If the only thing against Obama is his childhood name, then good for him. I am not for or against anyone yet. I haven't made up my mind. BUT I sure and the Hell am not going to condemn anyone for making their life easier during school.

So says APROPOS, not my REAL NAME but everyone calls me Appie. Hello POTS!

Margaret

02-17-2008, 05:24 PM

See, my issue is not in what people are calling themselves. It really does not matter.

Where my issue stands is when "facts" are posted such as "Obama's real name" and then a "Does that not make him decietful?" is added. Then, when the source is called into question, we get a "Does your computer not search?"

If you are going to post facts and information about people, do so from a site that has no hard core political affiliations (Because, you will excuse me if I don't believe you can get any non skewed information on Hilliary that is run by Rush Limbah) and once you have those facts, be able to back them up without getting snippy.

letitflyantiques

02-17-2008, 06:26 PM

Well, that's what happens when you use opinionated blogs and websites as your source of information.

I never do, never have. I read them to see what some people think and to find facts that the mainstream media ignores but I check the facts before I believe them. I still rely of old fashioned footnoted and primary source material when possible. With Obama, I liked him when I read the stories in Newsweek, Time, NY Times but not so much after I went to his website and read hid words and when I researched his church that he has attended for 20 years.
His position papers include giving my tax money to US auto companies to develop better engines. Let their stockholders invest their money in their own company, not my tax dollars. He says he will sit down and talk with the leaders we are not friendly with. No, I don't think we should deal with the leaders of Syria, Libya, Iran as if they are legitimate rulers. They are despots that finance terrorism and the US president should not meet with the.

The "chick" with the Cuban flag: this is not a kid. She is 50 something and high enough to party with Obama and his wife and she is still a precinct captain in Houston. And Obama as well aware of the situation, he has spoken about it and he just doesn't seem to understand why a presidental candidate should not be hanging the flags of dictatorships on the wall and sitting their coffee cups on the American flag. I can't understand why anyone doesn't see a problem with it.

Che: wikipedia as a source? There were many sympathetic Che books churned out in the radical 1970's. My Latin American history professors slobbered over him. Redford made the silly movie. Real history, paints a different picture. Che failed at everything except shooting prisoners. Castro put him in charge of murdering people at his prison. Che wrote his father that he had finally found something he enjoyed, killing people.
There is no evidence that he ever got a medical degree. Google the story about hin treating Bolivian wounded and you will find that reliable sources say it is fabricated. He tried to ingratiate himself with his captors, offered to treat a wounded soldier and was refused.

Peaches O Malley

02-17-2008, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Margaret http://www.wench.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wench.org/forums/showthread.php?p=244208#post244208)
Well, that's what happens when you use opinionated blogs and websites as your source of information.

I never do, never have.

Pssst. --> http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915&only&rss = Blog

Isabelle Warwicke

02-17-2008, 08:11 PM

The Bush machine used and uses that irritating "W" that he had never used before but no one complains.

I believe that was done so that the public could differentiate between him and his father, sharing the same basic name and all. Remember John Adams? Which was which?

Isabelle Warwicke

02-17-2008, 08:17 PM

we made the choice to register under my married name, not her birth name. Jimeny Christmas.

You named your daughter JIMENY?!?!? CHRISTMAS!!!?

::snikker::

Phoenix McHeit

02-17-2008, 08:55 PM

Che: wikipedia as a source?

Ok fair enough, how about this:
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/COLDguevara.htm

When the guerrillas took control of territory they redistributed the land amongst the peasants. In return, the peasants helped the guerrillas against Batista's soldiers. In some cases the peasants also joined Castro's army, as did students from the cities and occasionally Catholic priests.
In an effort to find out information about the rebels people were pulled in for questioning. Many innocent people
were tortured. Suspects, including children, were publicly executed and then left hanging in the streets for several days as a warning to others who were considering joining the revolutionaries. The behaviour of Batista's forces increased support for the guerrillas.

Or maybe you prefer TIME Magazine?
http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/guevara01.html

Like so many epics, the story of the obscure Argentine doctor who abandoned his profession and his native land to pursue the emancipation of the poor of the earth began with a voyage. In 1956, along with Fidel Castro and a handful of others, he had crossed the Caribbean in the rickety yacht Granma on the mad mission of invading Cuba and overthrowing the dictator Fulgencio Batista.Or perhaps this one:
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/chebio.htm

An intellectual and an idealist, able to speak coherently about Aristotle, Kant, Marx, Gide or Faulkner, he also loved poetry, and was equally at home with Keats as with Sara De Ibáñez, his favorite writer. It is said that he knew Kipling's "If" by heart.
"I don't think you and I are very closely related," Che wrote in a letter to Señora María Rosario Guevara, "but if you are capable of trembling with indignation each time that an injustice is committed in the world, we are comrades, and that is more important." There is no evidence that he ever got a medical degree. Oh? Try this: http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/guevara.html

1953 - Guevara completes his medical degree in March. Or this one: http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_project/ernesto_che_guevara.html

He qualifies as a doctor in 1953

And a little bit of BBC, for good measure: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7028598.stm
"Che Guevara has become a brand. And the brand's logo is the image, which represents change. It has becomes the icon of the outside thinker, at whatever level - whether it is anti-war, pro-green or anti-globalisation," she says.

Winifred Baskerville

02-17-2008, 09:07 PM

Girl crush, Phee! ::flowers:

Pathos

02-17-2008, 09:12 PM

the Obama staff using the American flag as a tablecloth.
They used an actual American flag as a tablecloth? Or was it a tablecloth printed with the image of the American flag?

sitting their coffee cups on the American flag.
By that logic I guess I should be offended with all the paper plates, napkins, and plastic cups with the flag on them that are sold in every store every year for the fourth of July.

But you know what? I'm not offended.

At all.

Ysobelle

02-17-2008, 09:23 PM

Phoenix McHeit

02-17-2008, 09:32 PM

I appreciate the fact that Obama isn't functioning as the Thought Police, making anyone who has anything to do with him change their image.
*snip*
Obama seems more interested in what things are, rather than what they look like. I appreciate that.

I especially liked this quote, from a Conservative site, no less:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/obama_che_guevara_flag_scandal/

But, surely, Obama doesn’t need to publicly weigh in on the decorating choices of every low level staffer? Let alone “renounce” affinities which he’s never shown?
Johnson’s insinuation is simply beyond the pale: “Barack Obama won’t wear an American flag on his lapel, but on the wall of his Houston campaign office: a Cuban flag with a picture of Communist mass murderer Che Guevara.” As I noted when the ridiculous flap over Obama’s calling flag pins “a substitute for true patriotism” (http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/10/obama_wont_wear_flag_pin/) emerged,
I don’t mind people wearing pins or putting stickers on their cars as a show of support for their country or their cause. I am, however, irritated by the notion that so doing makes them somehow superior to those who don’t.
The suggestion that Americans need to start swearing loyalty oaths, though, is light years beyond irritating.

Phoenix McHeit

02-17-2008, 09:39 PM

he just doesn't seem to understand why a presidental candidate should not be hanging the flags of dictatorships on the wall Probably because HE didn't. A staffer did.

I can't understand why anyone doesn't see a problem with it. See above

Isabelle Warwicke

02-17-2008, 10:17 PM

Che Guevara Flag debate = http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb130/steelhog1/horse.gif

letitflyantiques

02-17-2008, 11:35 PM

Originally Posted by Margaret http://www.wench.org/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.wench.org/forums/showthread.php?p=244208#post244208)
Well, that's what happens when you use opinionated blogs and websites as your source of information.

Pssst. --> http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28915&only&rss = Blog

really, no kidding? and a radically bad blog at that. don't remember saying IK believed it.

letitflyantiques

02-17-2008, 11:36 PM

And YOU may not like Che, but other people do. And more than any implied message that may or may not exist in this ridiculous non-issue, I appreciate the fact that Obama isn't functioning as the Thought Police, making anyone who has anything to do with him change their image. Were this a Nazi flag, I'd have a problem. But it's not.

Obama seems more interested in what things are, rather than what they look like. I appreciate that.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9947002 (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9947002)

che on “indolent and lazy blacks’” his words, well known:

http://members.tripod.com/~Campello/che_part1.htmlnd (http://members.tripod.com/~Campello/che_part1.htmlnd)

After 40 years of the Che cult and many romanticized and fabricated biographies and movies, I know there is no chance his fans will believe either his own words or those of compatriots and witnesses:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535 (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535)

letitflyantiques

02-17-2008, 11:55 PM

They used an actual American flag as a tablecloth? Or was it a tablecloth printed with the image of the American flag?

By that logic I guess I should be offended with all the paper plates, napkins, and plastic cups with the flag on them that are sold in every store every year for the fourth of July.

But you know what? I'm not offended.

At all.

looks like a flag to me:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13912610@N06/1413166191/

The use of the flag on throw away stuff violates the old flag code but we have all become accustomed to it now. The flag of a dictator hanging on the wall of a major office of a presidential candidate's campaign office while the same people use the American flag as a tablecover should offend everyone. This was not some "chick." She can be seen on this same site with Obama and hugging Michelle Obama; obviously she is a force in the Houston campaign.
Obviously Obama did not order the Cuban flag put up in his office but he should have reacted strongly and did more than say, "it is not an official office" or whatever and canned the volunteer. She is still there and running the office.

Pathos

02-18-2008, 12:23 AM

looks like a flag to me:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13912610@N06/1413166191/
I don't see Obama in that pic.

In fact I don't see anything even remotely involving Obama at all.

Nor do I see coffee cups.

Cyranno DeBoberac

02-18-2008, 12:32 AM

The flag of a dictator hanging on the wall of a major office of a presidential candidate's campaign office while the same people use the American flag as a tablecover should offend everyone.
Except it's not offending anyone, so feel free to get over it now.

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 08:00 AM

I don't see Obama in that pic.

In fact I don't see anything even remotely involving Obama at all.

Nor do I see coffee cups.

it's his campaign workers and their attitude. no one sais Obama's in it. coffee mugs, fruit, whatever their Volvos; it is the flag, not a tablecloth.

Obama' s people finally woke up Friday and realized that his campaign offices should not be flying foreign flags, especially those of nations that consider us an enemy and issued an apology and disavowed the symbolism and ol' Che.

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 08:20 AM

(http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9947002)
che on “indolent and lazy blacks’” his words, well known:

http://members.tripod.com/~Campello/che_part1.htmlnd (http://members.tripod.com/%7ECampello/che_part1.htmlnd)

When trying that link, this message appears:
Sorry, but the page or the file that you're looking for is not here.
Try the search box below to find more information about your topic.

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 08:52 AM

When trying that link, this message appears:

looks like I picked up some stray letters. this should work. i think he was glorifying African blacks and dissing colonial region blacks:

http://members.tripod.com/~Campello/che_part1.html

And finally, the mainstream media is taking note of the flags. from the Boston Globe:

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/02/17/what_would_jfk_do/

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 08:53 AM

After 40 years of the Che cult and many romanticized and fabricated biographies and movies, I know there is no chance his fans will believe either his own words or those of compatriots and witnesses:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535 (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1535)

Ok that one was really very enlightening. If you could tone down the supercilious, know-it-all attitude, maybe we could have an intelligent, give & take discussion. Maybe we could both learn something, ya think?

The problem is - that's one article. I posted links to many that have the opposite viewpoint. I spent most of the evening researching what I could find, and they're positive. He's become - rightly or wrongly - a romanticized figure of overthrowing a tyrannical dictatorship.

I wasn't alive when this was all going on. Its history to me. I can only learn from what I read. The thing is - if there's one article condemning him & his actions... and 30 praising them... which ones am I most likely to believe? The one, or the 30?

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 09:01 AM

looks like I picked up some stray letters. this should work. i think he was glorifying African blacks and dissing colonial region blacks:

http://members.tripod.com/~Campello/che_part1.html (http://members.tripod.com/%7ECampello/che_part1.html)

Here's what it says - I read the opposite as you.
"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have conserved their racial purity by a lack of affinity with washing, have seen their patch invaded by a different kind of slave: The Portugese.... the black is indolent and fanciful, he spends his money on frivolity and drink; the European comes from a tradition of working and saving which follows him to this corner of America and drives him to get ahead."

Seems to me he was admiring the drive of the 'invaders'.

And this article also states that Che got his medical degree.
In 1953, Guevara passed his final exams and finally received the title of doctor.

Capt. Stamina

02-18-2008, 09:15 AM

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 09:16 AM

Ok that one was really very enlightening. If you could tone down the supercilious, know-it-all attitude, maybe we could have an intelligent, give & take discussion. Maybe we could both learn something, ya think?

sorry to constantly offend you. there has been a very vocal movement of historians, che's victims and others to fight the idolized image of che in the popular culture but it never gets anywhere. Castro sent che out to die so he could be done with him but he recognized his value as a propoganda icon and has had his sophisticated marketing machine puching che for decades.

I don't ever claim to know much about anything but I am always suspicious of the current popular rages, whether it is Che or a popular candidate that will probably win an election based on a vacuous claim to bring some undefined "Change."

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 09:19 AM

Here's what it says - I read the opposite as you.

Seems to me he was admiring the drive of the 'invaders'.

And this article also states that Che got his medical degree.
[/size]

You seem to be the only person that reads it that way. His admirers have been trying to deal with this statement for decades.

I have to concede on the dr issue. A current biographer says there is no evidence that he got a degree but more say he did. Still just a murderous thug.

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 09:23 AM

Ok that one was really very enlightening. If you could tone down the supercilious, know-it-all attitude, maybe we could have an intelligent, give & take discussion. Maybe we could both learn something, ya think?

The problem is - that's one article. I posted links to many that have the opposite viewpoint. I spent most of the evening researching what I could find, and they're positive. He's become - rightly or wrongly - a romanticized figure of overthrowing a tyrannical dictatorship.

I wasn't alive when this was all going on. Its history to me. I can only learn from what I read. The thing is - if there's one article condemning him & his actions... and 30 praising them... which ones am I most likely to believe? The one, or the 30?

i prefer the Economist personally. and books. the internet is fun and quick but a minefield of garbage.
I was around and wort the first Che shirts. After a while, I had the opportunity to meet people that saw Che shoot their families. The truth of Che has always been out there but the Korda photo trumps real history.

Ravin' Raven

02-18-2008, 09:24 AM

::doh::

As much I really do not want to join I'm just ill enough to get up the gumption...About the pic with the American Flag. There is a difference between using it decoratively (you'll notice it's askew with some other items placed on it as if to create a tableau) and using it as a tablecloth. In fact it looks to me like people have made a point of NOT placing drink objects on it.

About the only thing I've really learned from this and some other political threads is that some people are the same about politics as many people who used to have a habit are about that habit once they don't have it anymore...

Ron Paul - he's an ass!!!! (of course I was all for Ron until I actually read some things and then changed my mind...). Obama - he's not omniscient! He doesn't know what's going on in a state a thousand miles from where he is - we can't have that (but I'm still kinda on his side because, well, I haven't decided not to be yet....). Here's a bunch of stuff that is being presented as fact!!! (why are you beating me up for not backing up my claims...)

May I suggest education and information before proselytizing? Or be ready to have some reasonably intelligent people ready to call you on it.

There. I got involved. And I'm sick enough not to care. Be pissed off. But as Isabelle (I think in my sick haze) "pictured" it best - this horse is already glue...

And Phee...I lurvs you more and more - girl crush! Bob and Pathos, Isabelle, Selena - as always, thank you for trying to keep things reasonably articulate.

I'm going to go crawl into the hamster ball now....

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 09:29 AM

sorry to constantly offend you.

Apparently I'm not the only one who's being offended. I'm just the one who's said so more than once.

Raven - hope you feel better, sweets! Get your Hawk to fix ya some nice tea & broth, then tuck in for a looooooooooooong nap. Lurve you too, babes!

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 09:30 AM

Since this kind of goes along with this thread, I’m just curious. When Obama obtains the most public votes and gets the most state delegates and Hillary gets the votes of the super-delegates and wins the party nomination; are there going to be riots in the streets?

The super delegates may be deserting Clinton. One of her biggest super delegate is leaning toward Obama. Obama was down here unannounced this weekend to court Edward's support.
Unless Clinton can turn around and win big in Texas and Ohio, I think she is out.

I think Obama is unstoppable at this point. I like Clinton, feel comfortable with her experience but there are the nagging charater issues.

The Wizard

02-18-2008, 09:50 AM

One thing that I've heard Paul Harvey point out is that none of the candidates have run a business. I'd venture to add that none of them have even run a City or a State--they're all just politicians.

Ravin' Raven

02-18-2008, 10:06 AM

One thing that I've heard Paul Harvey point out is that none of the candidates have run a business. I'd venture to add that none of them have even run a City or a State--they're all just politicians.

Mitt Romney ran a business and was governor of MA. And don't politicians just run cities and states?

See above....:roll:

The Wizard

02-18-2008, 10:07 AM

Is Mitt still in the race? I thought he dropped out.

Meari

02-18-2008, 10:23 AM

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 10:34 AM

Is Mitt still in the race? I thought he dropped out.

Correct. Clinton has ran a law practice and has the history of investments that we had to spend millions investigating. McCain was military until his retirement which certainly is good excutive training but he has never had to live with a year end profit/loss statement. His wife runs a large business so he is not totally detached from business.
Obama was a lawyer practiced law and taught from 1991 until, I assume, he ran for office in 2003.
Edwards, Romney, Guilliani had business experience but they are all out.

Oh, of the remaining candidates, Ron Paul has the most extensive business background.

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 10:47 AM

I've tried to figure out what allt he fuss is about.... but man! I can't.

So let's see if I get this right....

1.) Obama was known by another name long ago (haven't we all?)
2.) somoene is a campaign office in a state he doens't live in has a cuban flag displayed (maybe the person is Cuban?)
3.) someone is wearing a Che shirt. (I used to own one.... does this make me bad?)

pardon my ignornace.... but I have to agree with many of the people here....

I don't see the problem.

1) the name means nothing and never said it did. used it to point out thatHRC has rec'd flak for using/ not using her given name while Obama changed his name completely and it does not elicit a peep. it means nothing to me and it is clear enough why he did it.
2) you don't see why a candidate having a flag of an enemy country, a country that shot down a US plane a few years ago, a dictatorship with no freedom, a dictatorship that opposes everything we stand for, you don't see that as a problem. This is the AMERICAN election, not Cuban (they don't have them). The important member of the campaign that hung the flag is American, though she said Cuban at first, she decided a second later that she is an American. The problem is not that someone hung this flag in an Obama officewithout is knowledge, the problem is that he did not take effective action at first. Once a couple of thousand bloggers got on it and, belately, the mainstream media took note, then his campaign apologized for the insult. But the woman still is an important member of the campaign. You should ask yourself why people that celebrate a communist dictatorship a running an Obama office and why are people opposed to democracy and freedom so drawn to Obama. Daniel Otega has endorsed him, also. The American flag should be flown in American campaigns and the candidates should understand why. Seems simple enough.

surlywench

02-18-2008, 11:03 AM

Ravin' Raven

02-18-2008, 11:27 AM

Has that ever happened within a party over the nomination? Just curious.

Probably the closest you can come to is the Democratic National Convention in Chicago - 1968...

Capt. Stamina

02-18-2008, 11:27 AM

Not riots per se, but I recall the incidents in 1969 and 1972. The Wikipedia description is here: wikipedia: Democratic National Convention (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_National_Convention)

But the highlihts of the 68 and 72 events are here:

The most historically notable—and tumultuous—convention of recent memory was the 1968 Democratic National Convention in Chicago, Illinois, which was fraught with highly emotional battles between conventioneers and Vietnam war protesters and a notable outburst by Chicago mayor Richard J. Daley. Other confrontations between various groups, such as the Yippies and members of the Students for a Democratic Society, and the Chicago police in city parks, streets and hotels marred this convention. Following the 1968 convention, in which many reformers had been disappointed in the way that Vice President Hubert Humphrey, despite not having competed in a single primary, easily won the nomination over Senators Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern (who announced after the assassination of another candidate, Senator Robert F. Kennedy), a commission headed by Senator McGovern reformed the Democratic Party's nominating process to increase the power of primaries in choosing delegates in order to increase the democracy of the process. Not entirely coincidentally, McGovern himself won the nomination in 1972. The 1972 convention was significant in that the new rules put into place as a result of the McGovern commission also opened the door for quotas mandating that certain percentages of delegates be women or members of minority groups, and subjects that were previously deemed not fit for political debate, such as abortion and lesbian and gay rights, now occupied the forefront of political discussion. That convention itself was one of the most bizarre in American history, with sessions beginning in the early evening and lasting until sunrise the next morning, and outside political activists gaining influence at the expense of elected officials and core Democratic constituencies such as organized labor (thus resulting in a convention far to the left of the rank-and-file of the Democratic Party).

The difference between then and now is it just seems that if some don't get what they want, it's an excuse to riot.

Isabelle Warwicke

02-18-2008, 11:46 AM

::doh::
But as Isabelle (I think in my sick haze) "pictured" it best - this horse is already glue...

I'm going to go crawl into the hamster ball now....

Again....
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb130/steelhog1/horse.gif

I hope you feel better.

Ravin' Raven

02-18-2008, 11:50 AM

Again....
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb130/steelhog1/horse.gif

I hope you feel better.

Okay - that just hurt *rotfl* (well, that and one of the previous postings - and not in a good way)....

Have some sympathy woman and leave poor Elmers alone already!! Or is he Alpo?

Thank you - and Phee - I'd take a nap but I dont think my boss would like it very much if I curled up under my desk. I threatened to take back all of the reviews/raises I just did for the people who started this whole thing...

Back to your regularly scheduled inanity....

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 12:02 PM

Has that ever happened within a party over the nomination? Just curious.

not that I recall. it is a relatively new thing and was contrived in 1980. it seems like Mondale and Hart were very close but Mondale had a hug lead in committed superdelegates. I believe it was the same time frame that Hart was self destructing over Donna Rice. Hart, and maybe RFK, are the closest things I can remember to the type of excitement that Obama has created.

Dean had a big lead in super delegates before the first primary in 2004 but Kerry still won.

I can't say I get the superdelegate concept. not sure if Republicans even have them.

Meari

02-18-2008, 02:53 PM

1) 2) you don't see why a candidate having a flag of an enemy country, a country that shot down a US plane a few years ago, a dictatorship with no freedom, a dictatorship that opposes everything we stand for, you don't see that as a problem. This is the AMERICAN election, not Cuban (they don't have them). The important member of the campaign that hung the flag is American, though she said Cuban at first, she decided a second later that she is an American. The problem is not that someone hung this flag in an Obama officewithout is knowledge, the problem is that he did not take effective action at first. Once a couple of thousand bloggers got on it and, belately, the mainstream media took note, then his campaign apologized for the insult. But the woman still is an important member of the campaign. You should ask yourself why people that celebrate a communist dictatorship a running an Obama office and why are people opposed to democracy and freedom so drawn to Obama. Daniel Otega has endorsed him, also. The American flag should be flown in American campaigns and the candidates should understand why. Seems simple enough.

America is a country made of people from other countries. There are cuban and Puetro Rican flags on the cars. My friend flies an Irish flag in his front yard.

Maybe, just maybe, the guy is Cuban. It IS possible to be a citizen here, and be born somewhere else. It's been known to happen from time to time.

Would I be offended if some dude in an office had a flag from a differnet country? No.

Heck, this was in Huston? I'm quite surprised that there wasn't a Mexican flag.

Honestly, this is being blown WWAAYYYY out of proportion.

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 03:17 PM

Again....
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb130/steelhog1/horse.gif

There's a real easy way to avoid that feeling. Don't click on the thread.

Not everyone thinks it's a finished subject.

Capt. Stamina

02-18-2008, 03:27 PM

Article here (http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/monday/nation/ny-usdems185582573feb18,0,3127140.story)

MILWAUKEE - Harlem Rep. Charles Rangel - one of Hillary Clinton's most stalwart African-American defenders - is apparently questioning her reliance on unelected superdelegates to stay competitive with Barack Obama, saying they may not reflect the "will" of Democratic voters.

"It's the people [who are] going to govern who selects our next candidate and not superdelegates," Rangel said last night at a dinner for the New York State Association of Black and Puerto Rican Legislators conference in Albany.

"The people's will is what's going to prevail at the convention and not people who decide what the people's will is," he added.

<snip>

Not sure what this guy is smoking, but I want some of it. He may be the most popular, but there's no way the DNC party is going to nominate him.

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 06:05 PM

[quote=Capt. Stamina;244400]Article here (http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/monday/nation/ny-usdems185582573feb18,0,3127140.story)

MILWAUKEE - Harlem Rep. Charles Rangel - one of Hillary Clinton's most stalwart African-American defenders - is apparently questioning her reliance on unelected superdelegates to stay competitive with Barack Obama, saying they may not reflect the "will" of Democratic voters.

"It's the people [who are] going to govern who selects our next candidate and not superdelegates," Rangel said last night at a dinner for the New York State Association of Black and Puerto Rican Legislators conference in Albany.

"The people's will is what's going to prevail at the convention and not people who decide what the people's will is," he added."

I think he is inevitable unless HRC can run away with the upcoming primaries. Pelosi is leaning toward him as are other long time Clinton allies. The press will not touch him over any issue. If H. Rodham Clinton or McCain got caught using several lines from someone else's speech as Obama was this weekend, the press would be pounding them. Obama gets a pass. I think Obama will get the nomination; either way it will be a historic leap for us.

Pathos

02-18-2008, 07:22 PM

If H. Rodham Clinton or McCain got caught using several lines from someone else's speech as Obama was this weekend, the press would be pounding them. Obama gets a pass.
I think you may need to stay away from the extremist blogs and check out some regular mainstream news.

This "speech flap" is everywhere. I don't know how you could say he keeps getting a pass.

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 07:24 PM

The press will not touch him over any issue. If H. Rodham Clinton or McCain got caught using several lines from someone else's speech as Obama was this weekend, the press would be pounding them. Obama gets a pass. I think Obama will get the nomination; either way it will be a historic leap for us.

Oh gosh, now this is really going too far. You toss out some 'scandalous behavior' as some aside, just to stir up arguments. :roll: When there is really nothing to get in an uproar about.

For one - the press IS reporting it - Reuters, in fact:
http://www.reuters.com/article/bondsNews/idUSN1818527820080218

and for two, he used some lines from a friends' speech from a few years ago. Geez-o-pete, call the Thought Police. Criminy. NOBODY in politics writes their own speeches. They all have writers. Some aren't as good as others, but they're writers just the same.

The Obama and Clinton speech flap stemmed from a Democratic party dinner in Milwaukee on Saturday, when Obama refuted Clinton's criticism he is all words and no action. "Don't tell me words don't matter," Obama said.
"'I have a dream' -- just words? 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal' -- just words?'" Obama said at the dinner. The lines drawn from U.S. history were similar to a Patrick speech from his successful 2006 Massachusetts campaign for governor.
Obama, talking to reporters on a Monday morning trip to Ohio before returning to Wisconsin, said Patrick had suggested he use the lines and they frequently traded ideas.
"I was on the stump. He had suggested that we use these lines and I thought they were good lines," Obama said, adding he should have acknowledged Patrick as the author.
"I'm sure I should have -- didn't this time," he said. "I really don't think this is too big of a deal."

Yeah, huge deal... my oh my, what an awful thing to do! *gasp, shock, awe* :unamused:

surlywench

02-18-2008, 07:43 PM

and if he had given credit, he would have gotten pinged for name dropping. damned if you do, damned if you dont. it's a speech. unless it can be pinpointed as incitement to riot, or as a nexxus moment in american history, who the hell cares. everyone know that these guys say what they have to in front of whomever wants to hear it. whoopdeedo.

letitflyantiques

02-18-2008, 07:44 PM

I think you may need to stay away from the extremist blogs and check out some regular mainstream news.

This "speech flap" is everywhere. I don't know how you could say he keeps getting a pass.

i check the mainstream fairly regular and look at extremist blogs for fun and to see what extremists are up to. I pay zero attention to any blog except that it is interesting to see what thousands are reading. for facts, i try to check everything as much as is realistic.

It is indeed on the news as of this afternoon. I don't see it as a big deal, stuoid but not serious to me but I still think everyone would be on Clinton more.
Phoenix. It must not be so outrageous for me to mention it because, as pathos has pointed out, it is now on all the news outlets and the Obama campaign is on the defensive. Obviously the Clinton campaign considers it huge as the head guy spoke about it. looks pretty big right now. but it will die down unless people dig up more.

Peaches O Malley

02-18-2008, 08:17 PM

*Big snip*

Yeah, huge deal... my oh my, what an awful thing to do! *gasp, shock, awe* :unamused:

My thoughts exactly....::sleepy::

Phoenix McHeit

02-18-2008, 08:57 PM

i check the mainstream fairly regular and look at extremist blogs for fun and to see what extremists are up to. I pay zero attention to any blog

Umm, newsflash - posting links to extremist blogs to back up an argument you've made isn't exactly 'zero attention'. Absolute statements can and will be disproven. You may want to watch those a bit more than you have of late.

the Obama campaign is on the defensive. Obviously the Clinton campaign considers it huge as the head guy spoke about it. looks pretty big right now. but it will die down unless people dig up more.Defensive?

"I was on the stump. He had suggested that we use these lines and I thought they were good lines," Obama said, adding he should have acknowledged Patrick as the author.
"I'm sure I should have -- didn't this time," he said. "I really don't think this is too big of a deal."

Doesn't sound all that defensive to me. Lemme repeat his quote - "I really don't think this is too big of a deal."

Looks to me like the Clinton 'head guy' , as you call him, is grasping at straws - anything - to possibly deflate Obama's campaign. I think the D-word you were looking for is desperation (for the Clinton campaign), not defensive (for Obama's campaign).

Ravin' Raven

02-19-2008, 06:38 AM

Umm, newsflash - posting links to extremist blogs to back up an argument you've made isn't exactly 'zero attention'. Absolute statements can and will be disproven. You may want to watch those a bit more than you have of late.

thank you - I didn't have the energy to type that....::hug:: it just adds to the girl crush...

Perin

02-19-2008, 07:55 AM

1) the name means nothing and never said it did. used it to point out thatHRC has rec'd flak for using/ not using her given name while Obama changed his name completely and it does not elicit a peep. it means nothing to me and it is clear enough why he did it.

Do you still believe this? That he changed his name?

2) you don't see why a candidate having a flag of an enemy country, a country that shot down a US plane a few years ago, a dictatorship with no freedom, a dictatorship that opposes everything we stand for, you don't see that as a problem.

When did they shoot down a US plane?

And like many others have said, I'm sure 99% of all Cubans in this country fly the Cuban flag because of their love/pride of their birth country, and not for love of its government.

The Wizard

02-19-2008, 10:11 AM

MILWAUKEE - Harlem Rep. Charles Rangel - one of Hillary Clinton's most stalwart African-American defenders - is apparently questioning her reliance on unelected superdelegates to stay competitive with Barack Obama, saying they may not reflect the "will" of Democratic voters.
It seems that Rangel missed the point. The Superdelegates were invented so that the people can't overrule the will of the Democrat Party.

Isabelle Warwicke

02-19-2008, 11:24 AM

When did they shoot down a US plane?

Jamaica shot down Jimmy Buffet. Not Cuba.

I'm sure 99% of all Cubans in this country fly the Cuban flag because of their love/pride of their birth country, and not for love of its government.

Hell, that's why I fly the AMERICAN Flag.

Ravin' Raven

02-19-2008, 06:08 PM

How can anyone not remember the shoot down. The group was being provocative but few nations would blast a civilian, unarmed plane out of the air. Maybe the Che fans can justify it:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9602/cuba_shootdown/25/index.html

Maybe CNN will be acceptable here as people don't seem to get that it does not matter what site I refer to for a link, it is the links contained there that matter.

TRY THIS: IT WAS NOT JUST A CUBAN FLAG!! It is inappropriate to be flying any foreign flag in a presidential campaign office, especially to the exclusion of the US flag. Unless you don't understand it, this is an American election and Cuba isn't our friend. The Cuban flag had the image of Che superimposed on it. You should know the murderer Che, if you don't, I can't help that. He was an avowed enemy of this country, why should he be celebrated in a campaign HQ?
It has been stated here that some "chick" hung the flag. This "chick" was important enough to have her on blog on Obama's official campaign website. It has been taken down but it was there. The campaign has tried to disown the connection with her yet I have posted a link with pictures of her hugging Michelle Obama and standing with Obama. She remains a precinct captain despite her taste for Marxists killers. The company you keep, Obama.

Try to imagine the uproar if a conservative candidate's office stuck a Chilean flag on the wall with an image of Pinochet on it. The media would go insane with rage. Teflon Obama, not a peep from the media. (Pinochet was a right wing dictator, the inverse of Castro. His body count was not as high as Castro's and Che's but he will do)

Name change: I guess you are just being argumentative.
Try this extremely pro - Obama link. Try reading the last sentence. I don't know what else to tell you.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1050/barack-obama/

There is no question that he changed his name. it is neither hidden or secret and not a big deal.

**WARNING - THIS IS GOING TO BE A FLAME - IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ STOP NOW - NIKKI - IF YOU FEEL YOU MUST DELETE THEN PLEASE DO**

No, sir it is you who are being and have been argumentative from the get go. Your attitude (bolding mine) is uncalled for and just plain rude. Someone asked for a clarification of your point, perhaps she's young enough not to remember an event - I'm pretty sure I'm old enough to remember and quite honestly, I don't remember either, so forgive me for not knowing a point of which you are aware. But how dare I or anyone else challenge you on things you don't recall or for which you do not have information (and this is in other threads as well). And your snide attitude about the "people not getting" the links you provide - it is because you start out posting blog links, etc., as if they are gospel truth and when people ask for additional references to INFORM themselves you become snarly and, quite frankly, demeaning. Your manner of presentation can be confusing so the other posters ask for additional information and clarification. The point of these types of threads is to offer information and elicit discussion.

The general purpose of this board is banter and light discussion. Sure there are postings of political and religious issues which can raise stronger discussion but your "style" of political discussion may best be served by a board or group that engages strictly in these topics.

Done. Have At.

Phoenix McHeit

02-19-2008, 06:12 PM

Raven - you've said it all, and quite well. Thank you. :bow:

Perin

02-19-2008, 06:12 PM

Name change: I guess you are just being argumentative.
Try this extremely pro - Obama link. Try reading the last sentence. I don't know what else to tell you.

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1050/barack-obama/

There is no question that he changed his name. it is neither hidden or secret and not a big deal.

I think Phoenix said it best

Soetoro was his stepfather's name. Simple. Why is it so hard to understand that while he was very young - and had virtually no control over it - he was known in school by the last name of the man with whom he lived?

When he had the choice later, he went back to his birth cert name. Simple. And hardly 'deceitful', as you say in post # 55.

I'm not arguing that he didn't register in an Indonesian school as Barry Soetoro. I've just seen nothing that made me belive it was his "real" name.

Not that I even remember why it matters anymore....

Phoenix McHeit

02-19-2008, 06:17 PM

It is inappropriate to be flying any foreign flag in a presidential campaign office, especially to the exclusion of the US flag.

Did the pics have 360 degree views? Are you positive that the flag was there to the exclusion of the US flag? Or is that just more of your "I'll make up facts that seem to fit & argue when asked to prove them" schtick?

Inappropriate to fly Any Foreign Flag... wow - ANY? At all? Even flags of our allies? Even flags that are flown to celebrate our mixed heritage?

Excuse me, sir - but unless you are 100% Native, which you aren't... you're foreign too.

Meari

02-19-2008, 06:21 PM

Unless you don't understand it, this is an American election and Cuba isn't our friend. The Cuban flag had the image of Che superimposed on it. You should know the murderer Che, if you don't, I can't help that. He was an avowed enemy of this country, why should he be celebrated in a campaign HQ?

And now, please be civil. Becuase people post opposing viewpoints doesn't mean they need to be talked down to.

Margaret

02-19-2008, 06:29 PM

Done. Have At.

Have at it? Madame, as you say, I shall indeed "have at it".

Thank you very much!! Well said!! ::yay::::yay::

Phoenix McHeit

02-19-2008, 06:31 PM

it matters only that i pointed out that a woman, hillary clinton, has been criticized throughout her career for the various forms of her name she has chosen to use at various times in her long and varied career

That's the point though. She's used different versions all throughout her career - as an adult. Obama took back his birth cert name When He Was Still A Child. NOT 'throughout his career'.
Obama totally changed his name and no one in the press or anywhere else says a word about.

Because its a non-issue. It has nothing to do with what kind of a president he would make. He did this many, many years ago. NOT just when he decided to run for public office.

It was simply a statement about the different expectations people have for a man vs a woman.

Gender has nothing to do with it.

Rudeness, i can't see the difference between what i have posted and others in terms of tone.

That's a problem with your perception, then. Obviously I'm not the only one who takes exception to how you phrase things.