Ala. Judge Wears Ten Commandments on Robe

[Eric McTavish]

WTF???? :shock:
How is this legal??? And of course Asshat extrodinare Moore backs him :roll:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=3&u=/ap/20041215/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments_robe
Ala. Judge Wears Ten Commandments on Robe

23 minutes ago U.S. National - AP

By BOB JOHNSON, Associated Press Writer

MONTGOMERY, Ala. - A judge refused to delay a trial Tuesday when an attorney objected to his wearing a judicial robe with the Ten Commandments embroidered on the front in gold.

Circuit Judge Ashley McKathan showed up Monday at his Covington County courtroom in southern Alabama wearing the robe. Attorneys who try cases at the courthouse said they had not seen him wearing it before. The commandments were described as being big enough to read by anyone near the judge.

Attorney Riley Powell, defending a client charged with DUI, filed a motion objecting to the robe and asking that the case be continued. He said McKathan denied both motions.

"I feel this creates a distraction that affects my client," Powell said.

McKathan told The Associated Press that he believes the Ten Commandments represent the truth "and you can't divorce the law from the truth. ... The Ten Commandments can help a judge know the difference between right and wrong."

He said he doesn't believe the commandments on his robe would have an adverse effect on jurors.

"I had a choice of several sizes of letters. I purposely chose a size that would not be in anybody's face," he said.

The case raised comparisons to former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who was removed from office in 2003 for refusing to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the rotunda of the Alabama Judicial Building in Montgomery.

Moore said Tuesday he supports McKathan's decision to wear the Ten Commandments robe.

"I applaud Judge McKathan. It is time for our judiciary to recognize the moral basis of our law," Moore said.

Powell said if he loses his case, he expects the judge's wearing of the Ten Commandments robe to be part of an appeal.

[Mylilpinkpig]

:shock: He is sitting on the bench wearing a robe with the ten commandments emblazed in gold,,,and he doesn't think it will effect a jury when he delivers their instructions??? :shock: If the judge needs to look down and read the ten commandments to know the difference between right and wrong,,,,he should not on the bench.

[Eric McTavish]

"I had a choice of several sizes of letters. I purposely chose a size that would not be in anybody's face," he said.

Like Gold letters on a black silk robe aren't "in your face"

[Drea Beth]

WTF???? :shock:
How is this legal??? And of course Asshat extrodinare Moore backs him :roll:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=3&u=/ap/20041215/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments_robe


I guess I miss why this should be an issue. It's on his personal property and folks should just buck up and deal.

And in the case of Mr. Moore, since when does standing up for something you believe in make you an asshat?

[Eric McTavish]

I guess I miss why this should be an issue. It's on his personal property and folks should just buck up and deal.
Issue because as a Judge thes robes are a badge of his office i.e. the Courts of the United States and shows that "his" court enspouses the religion of Christianity above all others.

And in the case of Mr. Moore, since when does standing up for something you believe in make you an asshat?
Standing up for your beliefs does not make you an asshat...sneeking in an Illeagal monument into a courthouse in the middle of the night then attempting to utilize your power as a State/Federal Judge to ignore the Constution to the point that you are forcably removed from your position makes you an asshat.

[RichardMacHugely]

I guess I miss why this should be an issue. It's on his personal property and folks should just buck up and deal.

Whether or not the actual robe is the personal property of the Judge is not the issue. Whenever the Judge dons that robe and sits on that bench, he ceases to be a private citizen and becomes an Officer of the State and as such he is bound by certain rules.

[Nevada]

The basic unadorned black does not show personal endorsement of one religion over another as it should be....I also wouldnt want to see any other religious symbol ie pentacle, star of david etc....also I believe our judicial system is not based on the ten commandments but on the same principles our govt is based on socractic processes.

[Mylilpinkpig]

It's an issue because it can effect a jury. If he wanted to have the ten commandments on his boxer shorts where the jury couldn't see it...fine. But you are puttiing it on your robe where they can read it while you are adjudicating the case. I wonder if he would allow a lawyer in his court room wearing a pentacle. Or better yet a lawyer wearing a suit that says...don't believe what you read on the judges robe. To me its an issue of decorum in the court room. You are there to enforce the law not advertise your beliefs

[Leela]

It's legal because he was wearing matching gold lame platforms and stretch thong.
Someone get that man a disco ball!

[Drea Beth]

It's legal because he was wearing matching gold lame platforms and stretch thong.
Someone get that man a disco ball!

Did anyone else get a Goldmember flash through their head? :twisted:

Now back to your regularly scheduled political debate.

[Kae]

As a teacher, I would am not able to place any holy book on my desk unlesss I place them all there. Why would a judge be able to wear his preferences on his robe? Separation of Church and State means just that. Regardless of what your position is, if you work fo rthe state - your personnal religious beliefs stay at home.

Kae

[Megan Campbell of Feather]

Let me try to express this without offending anyone.

Since Constitutional law is based on Biblical principals why is it wrong? Should we not be reminded about the ultimate judge in our lives?

The reason why the pilgrims left merry old England was for the pursuit of religious freedom. They formed their laws on the Ten Commandments defining how civil society should be lived. Jury’s should be reminded of Biblical law before making decisions…

A reminder of the Ten Commandments… Thou shall not utter a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man, to be a malicious witness. 2 You shall not follow a multitude to do evil; nor shall you bear witness in a suit, turning aside after a multitude, so as to pervert justice; 3 nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his suit. 4 "If you meet your enemy's ox or his ass going astray, you shall bring it back to him. 5 If you see the ass of one who hates you lying under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it, you shall help him to lift it up. 6 "You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his suit. 7 Keep far from a false charge, and do not slay the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked. 8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the officials, and subverts the cause of those who are in the right. 9 "You shall not oppress a stranger; you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. 10 "For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; 11 but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild beasts may eat. You shall do likewise with your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. 12 "Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your ass may have rest, and the son of your bondmaid, and the alien, may be refreshed…. Exodus 23 1:12

As a society we need to be reminded about where our laws come from and to whom we ultimately need to pay heed to.

Judge Moore fought Alabama tooth and nail for the right to leave the Ten Commandments from the courthouse. But lost that battle to the state. I feel that they should be in every courthouse in America, I think prayer is important no matter who you pray to. I feel that living your life by abiding to some form of Biblical Law is important. Society has become less afraid of the truth.

I feel that the judge should wear the Ten Commandments on his judicial robes, it is his personal freedom… just like the Wiccan in Great Falls, NC who does not want prayer before the local town meetings and the right to be a Wiccan her choice. Even though the folks in Great Falls disagree… they too should go back to the Bible to say… Hey I don’t really know you and I don’t know what sin you harbor, but I love you all the same.

Oh and as for the Asshat comment … since when does standing up for what you believe in make you an Asshat? Ignorance is showing… and it is so terrible sad to be so closed minded. I am open to what ever comes my way. I just feel that is way too harsh and a passing of judgment, which is not your or my place. We will all be judged soon enough…. We will be judged by the jewels on our crown that we lay at the feet of Jesus.


Ok now that you are all ready to send me to the lions...

:D

[Nevada]

actually I had understood the constitution was based on socratic democratic theories..the prevailing religion at the time was christian and influenced the wording even though a few of the drafters didnt want any mention of god in there at all they were outvoted....also your God may be the ulitmate judge in your life and thats cool, but not in everyones life if they do not follow a christian doctrine...I am pagan, my cousin is methodist but married a Hindu and my bro in law is atheist. Therefore the christian god is not the final judge in our lives. Also it has been found among the many ancient text found in Eqyptian, Babylonian, Roman, Greek etc...show the same laws of do not kill, do not cheat etc.....many ancient societies had contribution in forming current societal laws and even the voting systems in place all over the world.

[Megan Campbell of Feather]

Your assumption of my faith is totally incorrect. I have a degree in religion and can easily speak of Christian religion as well as my practicing religion... which is in truth none of your business, which is not the discussion here.

It is not right to name call and not right to assume anything. You know what they say, when you assume you make an ass out of you and me.

[Nevada]

umm where did I name call? And where did I make an assumption about your faith? You stated that the constitution was based on biblical law and I stated that from what I understood and was taught in govt classes and history classses was that the constitution was based on socractic theories...never once did I assume anything about your religion or call you or your religion names....I did point out in response to your remark that we should be reminded that we would be judged by Jesus that not everyone follows a religion that believes and in some cases even acknowledges Jesus. Also the comment that we need to be reminded to whom we ulitmatley need to pay heed to...and I also acknowledge that it was cool if you were strong in your faith and believed that your God was your ultimate judge but that your God is not my judge or the judge of non christians.

[Megan Campbell of Feather]

We are beating a dead horse here...

You assumed I was Christian... read your post. You assumed a lot about my comments and I care not to assume anything about yours.

I am going to let this discussion fall by the wayside.

Blessings all!

:D

[Kae]

Nevada, I have to second your opinion.
I have never heard that our constitutional laws and the concept of separation of Church and State came from the Bible. I, too, think it is based on socratic thought and the desire of our founding fathers to have religious freedom. Doesn't make sense to me to have the people who uphold those principles by the office they are in to be able to display any religious preference.
Weird. Maybe I am missing something. :?

Kae

[Nevada]

okay now I see where my "assumption" was....it was a reasonable one...if you are quoting biblical references and referring to Jesus as a judge over us then only other religion I can think of that acknowledges Jesus in that manner is Messianic Judaism...I personally dont give a flip what you practice...I was only responding to your comments that the constitution nad laws are based on biblical belief....I admire anyone who is strong in their faith no matter what they believe...just dont admire those who decided to make a grandstand show of their faith in an area (court) where it is supposed to be a neutral non religious process.....on the Wicca issue...Maybe she should have asked for equal time before she sued....Here in Dallas we have been granted that and have several different faiths that open the city council meetings...they take turns

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

As a person who quite freely and gladly ignores and violates the First and Third Commandments every chance I get, I would be worried about my rights to a fair trial if I were to appear before a judge wearing a robe with embroidery that says I shalt not do that.

[Eric McTavish]

Oh goodie a discourse!
Since Constitutional law is based on Biblical principals why is it wrong? Should we not be reminded about the ultimate judge in our lives?

Our constutional laws are based upon the socratic democratic theories put forth in the works Civilization. Thes works are based in the tenets of laws from Egyption, Bablonic and earler lawed socities.

The reason why the pilgrims left merry old England was for the pursuit of religious freedom. They formed their laws on the Ten Commandments defining how civil society should be lived. Jury’s should be reminded of Biblical law before making decisions…
Are you refering to the Quakers (the first "Pilgrims") who’s Theocratic society collapsed with the arrival of the founding fathers and other religious groups from Europe?

A reminder of the Ten Commandments… Thou shall not utter a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man, to be a malicious witness. 2 You shall not follow a multitude to do evil; nor shall you bear witness in a suit, turning aside after a multitude, so as to pervert justice; 3 nor shall you be partial to a poor man in his suit. 4 "If you meet your enemy's ox or his ass going astray, you shall bring it back to him. 5 If you see the ass of one who hates you lying under its burden, you shall refrain from leaving him with it, you shall help him to lift it up. 6 "You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his suit. 7 Keep far from a false charge, and do not slay the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked. 8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the officials, and subverts the cause of those who are in the right. 9 "You shall not oppress a stranger; you know the heart of a stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. 10 "For six years you shall sow your land and gather in its yield; 11 but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the wild beasts may eat. You shall do likewise with your vineyard, and with your olive orchard. 12 "Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your ass may have rest, and the son of your bondmaid, and the alien, may be refreshed…. Exodus 23 1:12
But my problem is #1 The have no other god bit... after all I'm not Christian why does a Judge have to right to tell me who I "should" worship? How could I a non-christian feel I have any hope for a fair trial by a judge who holds his god's laws over the laws of the land?
12 "Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your ass may have rest, and the son of your bondmaid, and the alien, may be refreshed…. Exodus 23 1:12
and which 7th day are we speaking of (Saturday is technically the 7th day seeing as how the week began on Sunday in biblical times...)

As a society we need to be reminded about where our laws come from and to whom we ultimately need to pay heed to.
Again our laws come from Socrates and other learned scholars from throughout history.
And I am responsible for myself and to Society as a whole as for "Ultimately who/what I need pay heed to" well that may well be someone/thing other than the Christian God so why am I bound by those laws?

Judge Moore fought Alabama tooth and nail for the right to leave the Ten Commandments from the courthouse. But lost that battle to the state. I feel that they should be in every courthouse in America, I think prayer is important no matter who you pray to. I feel that living your life by abiding to some form of Biblical Law is important. Society has become less afraid of the truth.
He has NO right to place them in a Government building "the Government shall make no law...ect, ect" and if he was so right why did he sneak the statue into the courthouse in the middle of the night... Now that being said I have no problem with the display of the 10 Commandments BUT there MUST be allowances for all religions to display their Laws as well (and here is where the problem comes in)

I feel that the judge should wear the Ten Commandments on his judicial robes, it is his personal freedom…
As a judge he has no personal freedom when acting as a Judge. Once the Robe comes off and he is no longer presiding over a court of law he can say/do/wear whatever wishes as he at that moment is a private citizen but in his role as a judge he is a Public servant serving ALL of the public.

just like the Wiccan in Great Falls, NC who does not want prayer before the local town meetings and the right to be a Wiccan her choice. Even though the folks in Great Falls disagree… they too should go back to the Bible to say… Hey I don’t really know you and I don’t know what sin you harbor, but I love you all the same.
She never ONCE did not want prayer before the meeting just a non-depositional prayer or the option for other religious groups (Jewish, Wiccan ect) to be allowed to open the meeting with their own prayers but the city council didn't like that idea.

Oh and as for the Asshat comment … since when does standing up for what you believe in make you an Asshat? Ignorance is showing… and it is so terrible sad to be so closed minded. I am open to what ever comes my way. I just feel that is way too harsh and a passing of judgment, which is not your or my place. We will all be judged soon enough…. We will be judged by the jewels on our crown that we lay at the feet of Jesus.
Standing up for your beliefs does not make you an asshat...sneaking in an Illegal monument into a courthouse in the middle of the night then attempting to utilize your power as a State/Federal Judge to ignore the Constitution to the point that you are forcibly removed from your position makes you an asshat.
Of course that is my opinion. :wink:

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

We will be judged by the jewels on our crown that we lay at the feet of Jesus.

:roll:

Okaaaaaaaaay.....

['Nise]

Quote:
Oh and as for the Asshat comment … since when does standing up for what you believe in make you an Asshat? Ignorance is showing… and it is so terrible sad to be so closed minded. I am open to what ever comes my way. I just feel that is way too harsh and a passing of judgment, which is not your or my place. We will all be judged soon enough…. We will be judged by the jewels on our crown that we lay at the feet of Jesus.

Standing up for your beliefs does not make you an asshat...sneaking in an Illegal monument into a courthouse in the middle of the night then attempting to utilize your power as a State/Federal Judge to ignore the Constitution to the point that you are forcibly removed from your position makes you an asshat.
Of course that is my opinion.

Not to mention the thousands of dollars in fines that Moore caused for the state of Alabama.

Separation of church and state is just that. Now if he wants to emblazon the rede, the tenants of the koran etc etc he would have a more legal case.

I just heard a very compelling bit on NPR today and this discussion here exemplifies this. There are people out there who think that as a christian the world or some huge faction is "at War" with them. How many people, I couldn't tell you.

That shocks me. Partially because as a pagan I've spent quite a few years dealing with the people who either ridicule me because of my beliefs or set out to convert me to their beliefs. It's been amusing at times, pathetic at others, and infuriating and hurtful. The crux comes down to this, for those individuals it is a lack of respect that I can make my own decisions and that they can be reasoned, well thought out, and morally right and still not agree with the attempted converters point of view.

I will never tell you that the hubris does not come from many sides, christian, pagan, jewish, islamic... there are extremist for each flavor of divinity. However it boils down to this, you do not have to agree with my principles, moral code, or path to the devine. You do have to respect that as a thinking person with the freedom of religion that I do not have to agree with you and let the subject lie. Rest assured, I shall accord you the same favor.

Love
‘Nise

PS the “you” in the previous statements is not intended to any one person, rather a general rant to all those who are in the line of conversion.

[Muireadach - PirateRogue]

We will all be judged soon enough…. We will be judged by the jewels on our crown that we lay at the feet of Jesus.


Ok now that you are all ready to send me to the lions...

:D

My particular problem with your comment and the Very reason anyone reading this comment can Safely assume your christian is that you say we will be all judged by Jesus.

The founding fathers didn't write the Constitution based on the ten commandments. As many people have already posted about.

[Psyche]

I do not understand why so many people assume that the government of the United States is at all founded on Christianity.

John Adams (the second President of the United States) signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Some quotes from our founding fathers that I find interesting and thought provoking...

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
Thomas Paine

The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson

I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the world ...

The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind ... to filch wealth and power to themselves. [They], in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Thomas Jefferson

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
Thomas Paine

As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority.
George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.
George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

From Benjamin Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

James Madison (the fourth President of the United States):
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
James Madison

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”
Thomas Paine

“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”
Thomas Paine

“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”
Thomas Paine

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”
Ethan Allen

[Psyche]

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)


"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."
--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

[Eric McTavish]

I have a feeling that this debate has died... too bad could have been a fun one too.

[Ysobelle]

Hey, Eric-- the Quakers weren't the ones off the Mayflower. They came for religious freedom, and they dressed soberly, but they weren't the Puritans. The Quakers came over later.

[Eric McTavish]

Hey, Eric-- the Quakers weren't the ones off the Mayflower. They came for religious freedom, and they dressed soberly, but they weren't the Puritans. The Quakers came over later.

whoups your right my statment should have been Puritians not Quakers...good catch...but the rest of that statment stands...
BTW did you know that the Puritans (Pilgrims) Did NOT celerbrate Christmas... they vieved it as a pagan Holiday taken over by the Church as a day of excess... LOL

[ambar]

whoups your right my statment should have been Puritians not Quakers...good catch...but the rest of that statment stands...
BTW did you know that the Puritans (Pilgrims) Did NOT celerbrate Christmas... they vieved it as a pagan Holiday taken over by the Church as a day of excess... LOL

You're right there. The Puritans did not celebrate any holidays. The holidays we have now were added back in later in our history.

[Margaret]

But my problem is #1 The have no other god bit... after all I'm not Christian why does a Judge have to right to tell me who I "should" worship? How could I a non-christian feel I have any hope for a fair trial by a judge who holds his god's laws over the laws of the land?
:

Eric,

I do not think the judge is saying who you or anyone else in his court should worship. It's a statement of what his beliefs are. Also, I don't believe they belong in the Court. If he prayed in his chambers to whichever diety he chooses to give him guidance and wisdom to do what is right and good in accordance with the rule of law, I have no issue with that. However, once in the court room, the only 'higher order' he should attend to is the law books.

[Eric McTavish]

Eric,

I do not think the judge is saying who you or anyone else in his court should worship. It's a statement of what his beliefs are.
I was referring to the 1st Commandment if the Judge in a court of law is displaying the 10 Commandments as the basis of our governments laws he is in a since saying the Government says I should follow them...

Also, I don't believe they belong in the Court. If he prayed in his chambers to whichever diety he chooses to give him guidance and wisdom to do what is right and good in accordance with the rule of law, I have no issue with that. However, once in the court room, the only 'higher order' he should attend to is the law books.
I agree with you 100% I have no problem with anyone's beliefs as long as they do the job they are suposed to do...if you religion get in the way of performing your tasks...find a new position.

[Isabelle Fawkes]

DID YOU KNOW?
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court
you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each
one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ...
it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors
have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over
the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.

Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members
of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority
and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law .
an oligarchy the rule of few over many.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

[Kae]

Then I have been lied to for years by professors, teachers and the history books. I think they should change it or agree to put religion into the state. I woudl fight that tooth and nail though.

Kae

[Eric McTavish]

DID YOU KNOW?
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court
you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each
one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ...
it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!
In reality it's 2 tablets with the nemurics I II III IV V VI VII VIII VIIII X "repesenting" the 10 commandmnets... I am not argueing that the 10 commandmsnts have no part in the history of lar (or our laws) but thet they are NOT the SOLE basis for our laws as this judge seems to think

"Above the east entrance to the Supreme Court building (which is the back entrance, not the front entrance), Moses is one of three Eastern law givers along with Confucius and Solon. Although he's in the middle, Confucius and Salon are facing the front as well, not facing Moses. There are figures on each side of the three men facing them.
The tablets in the sculpture are blank and although inspired by the Ten Commandments, the office of the curator of the U.S. Supreme Court says they have come to symbolically represent the "tablets of the law." The artist, Herman MacNeil, said "The 'Eastern Pediment' of the Supreme Court Building suggests...the treatment of such fundamental laws and precepts as are derived from the East. Moses, Confucius and Solon."

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors
have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.
As stated above, the tablets are used in the Supreme Court building as symbolic representations of law.
In some places they also represent not the Ten Commandments but the first ten amendments to the Constitution, the Bill of Rights

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!
The wall that is described includes a frieze that, among other things, has two male figures who represent the Majesty of Law and the Power of Government.
Between the two male figures is a tablet with the numbers 1 through 10 in Roman numerals.
According to the artist, Adolph A. Weinman, these represent the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the Constitution.

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over
the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.
It is true that there are versus from the Bible on various buildings and monuments in Washington D.C.


James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
I have not been able to find documentation for this pleaes support this argument.

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
same at above please prove this statment.

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher,
whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.[quote]
According to U.S. Senate documents, the chaplaincy for the U.S. Senate was established in 1789. The prayer offered btw is NON-denominational.

[quote]Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members
of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.
It was common for leaders of that time to be a member of a church.
According to research conducted by U.S.Constitution.net, here is the breakdown of the religion of the framers of the U.S. Constitution:

Congregationalist-7
Deist-1
Dutch Reformed-2
Episcopalian-26
Lutheran-1
Methodist-2
Presbyterian-11
Quaker-3
Roman Catholic-2

Some either changed church affiliation in their lifetimes or had dual membership.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority
and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law .
an oligarchy the rule of few over many.
This statment is true.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
true also but it is the opinion of one man.

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

DID YOU KNOW?

No I didn't. And apparently with good reason.

Did you know that most of what you've written (or rather, copied) is false and the rest is misleading when compared to it's proper context?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

But thanks for playing... enjoy this copy of our home game.

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."

true also but it is the opinion of one man.

And one man who apparently was a total loon, if you look at the entire context of that quote:

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

It is to be regretted, but so I believe the fact to be, that except the Bible there is not a true history in the world. Whatever may be the virtue, discernment, and industry of the writers, I am persuaded that truth and error (though in different degrees) will imperceptibly become and remain mixed and blended until they shall be separated forever by the great and last refining fire.

"except the Bible there is not a true history in the world"??? Whatever buddy....

[Eric McTavish]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp

But thanks for playing... enjoy this copy of our home game.

Bastard! You supplied pictures! :P Fine go ahead one-up me there Cyranno! :wink:

[Isabelle Fawkes]

According to snopes…

Claim: Religious symbols and references abound in U.S. capital buildings and the words of America's founders.

Status: Multiple — see below:

* Buildings in the U.S. capital and statements by America's founding fathers includes references to Judeo-Christian tradition: True.

* The items included in the piece quoted "above" demonstrate a government endorsement of Judeo-Christian tradition: False.


So this is both true and false. Sorry I didn’t look it up before posting.

As far as I know the most recognizable stone tablets come from the Bible and the story of Moses. Yes these symbols can represent something other than Biblical laws but if they wanted to depict the first ten amendments to the U.S. Constitution why not symbolize a page of parchment.

The sculpture that adorns the Supreme Court building "Justice the Guardian of Liberty" by Hermon A. McNeil was intended to be a symbolic representation. Personified by the figures of three great lawgivers: Moses, Confucius, and Solon (surrounded by several allegorical figures representing a variety of legal themes) yet Moses and the Tablets are prominently displayed in the center position giving more emphasis to his character.

This clipping was just to show that "yes there was" a religious influence. Which according to snopes is indeed true.

So now I guess its your turn to deal. :wink:

[Eric McTavish]

This clipping was just to show that "yes there was" a religious influence. Which according to snopes is indeed true.

So now I guess its your turn to deal. :wink:

well I never said there wasn't any religious influence just that it was not the ONLY influence, either way the 10 Commandments are NOT the laws of this Land or ever were, the Judge in question is overstepping his bounds of decorum as an officer of the court by predominantly displaying the commandments. Oh and btw if he had these commandments put onto his robe as a "reminder" to myself wouldn’t they need to be printed upside down so he could read them or better yet wouldn’t a handheld card be ever easer to access or is this just a ploy by a Judge to show everyone how "religious and Pious" he is?

[Dmitri]

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
--Benjamin Franklin
[from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728]


"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."
--Benjamin Franklin [letter to his father, 1738]


"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814



"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820


"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

[Isabelle Fawkes]

Are we talking about a court of law where you still have to swear in with your hand on a Bible?

I always thought that was a bit much if you truely wanted to keep religion out of the courtroom.

[Eric McTavish]

Are we talking about a court of law where you still have to swear in with your hand on a Bible?

I always thought that was a bit much if you truely wanted to keep religion out of the courtroom.

Accualy you are not required to "swear on the Bible" You don’t have to say “so help me God.” You can leave religion completely out of it. And you don’t have to swear at all, as long as you say something that shows your intent to tell the truth.
11-4. Affirmation in lieu of oath.
When a person to be sworn shall have conscientious
scruples against taking an oath in the manner prescribed by G.S.
11-2, 11-3, or 11-7, he shall be permitted to be affirmed. In
all cases the words of the affirmation shall be the same as the
words of the prescribed oath, except that the word "affirm"
shall be substituted for the word "swear" and the words "so help
me God" shall be deleted. (1777, c. 108, s. 4, P.R.; c. 115, s.
42, P.R.; 1819, c. 1019, P.R.; 1821, c. 1112, P.R.; R.C., c. 76,
s. 3; Code, s. 3311; Rev., s. 2356; C.S., s. 3191; 1985, c. 756,
s. 3.)

[Kae]

Didn't know the law to quote - cool. I knew it could be done.

And I stated earlier, one of the main principles of our country is separation of Church and State. They did this so that they wouldn't have to leave this country if they were the minority and being oppressed. When a person of authority displays a preference for one religion over another inside his area of authority, it reduces the ability to be completely forthright. Would a juror or a plaintiff be willing to state something he knows the judge is completely against because it does not coincide with his belief system? I don't know if I would. It is the same reason that my students do not know my political choices or my religion. If they differ from mine, they might not feel as comfortable as the do in coming to me for help. I know this is true because some teachers do let the students know their preferences and the students talk about how they don't feel comfortable working with the teacher.

Just my .02

Kae

[Nevada]

whats interesting is I have always wondered if Jesus truly existed...what would he think of the twisted way his teachings are being used.....

[Eric McTavish]

whats interesting is I have always wondered if Jesus truly existed...what would he think of the twisted way his teachings are being used.....

whats even more intresting is the new theories that Jesus was married and had childern...

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

whats even more intresting is the new theories that Jesus was married and had childern...

We know for a fact Jesus wasn't married.

There's no way a married guy can just go and disappear for three days and have no excuse better than "I was dead". :D


(with thanks to Sam Kinison... RIP)

[Isabelle Fawkes]

Didn't know the law to quote - cool. I knew it could be done.

And I stated earlier, one of the main principles of our country is separation of Church and State. They did this so that they wouldn't have to leave this country if they were the minority and being oppressed. When a person of authority displays a preference for one religion over another inside his area of authority, it reduces the ability to be completely forthright. Would a juror or a plaintiff be willing to state something he knows the judge is completely against because it does not coincide with his belief system? I don't know if I would. It is the same reason that my students do not know my political choices or my religion. If they differ from mine, they might not feel as comfortable as the do in coming to me for help. I know this is true because some teachers do let the students know their preferences and the students talk about how they don't feel comfortable working with the teacher.

Just my .02

Kae

Actually the "separation of church and state" is misleading. The First Amendment was written to prohibit the government from establishing one single national religion (as happened in England with the Conventicle Act of 1665.) Therefor Congress can not require that all Americans become Catholics, or Anglicans, or members of any other denomination. It was written so the American people had a choice to believe in whatever diety they like, not to justify the persecution of religious belief.

I agree that people in authority who wear their religion "on their sleeve" can influence those around them. Should this infuence be allowed in our nations courtrooms? NO. I really do not care what the judge believes in as long as he can remain impartial to do his job.

[Phoenix McHeit]

I really do not care what the judge believes in as long as he can remain impartial to do his job.

And that, right there, is the crux of this whole 4 page long discourse. The question is, can he? I don't know if he is a judge that makes the decisions himself, or has jurors in his courtroom that might be influenced, in whatever way, by what he wears on his robe.
Just my 2 cents.

[Bonnie]

completely immaterial to the topic at hand (and it's been a fascinating discussion), but I LOVE your new tag line, Phoenix!

AS for the original topic.... that judge deserves an official reprimand for his actions. If I were a lawyer trying a case in his court, I'd certainly push for judicial misconduct, mistrial, or whatever else i could to bring it back to reality.

The judge's bench is not the place for a political agenda to be promoted, nor a spiritual one.

[Phoenix McHeit]

:lol: Why thankee, m'dear! Doth that mean ye be privy to the wondrous flick as well? MISS YOU LOTS!

*back to scheduled thread... sorry for interrupting*

[Bonnie]

"yes. Yes. no.nonono.Yes. no no no no Yes, no no Yes, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no ....wait a minute! YES!"

[Ysobelle]

I love you both. AND Quick-Time Harch.



Okay, I can only speak for myself, but as a religious minority, I would take one look at that judge, know that he was hardcore Christian enough to play around with the First Amendment, and seriously doubt his ability to judge me without taking my non-Christian worldview into account. I would worry very much about being able to get a fair trial from someone like that. He put his religion above his job, and his religion, in some ways, is antithetical to mine. I'd be worried.

[Eric McTavish]

I love you both. AND Quick-Time Harch.



Okay, I can only speak for myself, but as a religious minority, I would take one look at that judge, know that he was hardcore Christian enough to play around with the First Amendment, and seriously doubt his ability to judge me without taking my non-Christian worldview into account. I would worry very much about being able to get a fair trial from someone like that. He put his religion above his job, and his religion, in some ways, is antithetical to mine. I'd be worried.

Its good to be the King!

and Ysobelle...absolutly right!! I couldn't have said it any better myself! :D

[Margaret]

Throwing a question out in the ring:

OK, so the judge is wearing the Commandments on his robe. On his docket are cases for drunk driving, breaking and entering, theft. Unless one of the defendants comes in wearing a t-shirt that says 'Pagan and Proud", what religion they follow (or don't) is not an issue and need not be brought up as a means of discussion/defence. So, the judge treats all defendents the same, based on his Christian beliefs. If the judge treats everyone the same, based on the rule of law, is the wearing of the 10 Commandments an issue.

(takes off her 'devil's advocate' hat prior to leaving her desk to get more coffee)

[Eric McTavish]

On his docket are cases for drunk driving, breaking and entering, theft. Unless one of the defendants comes in wearing a t-shirt that says 'Pagan and Proud", what religion they follow (or don't) is not an issue and need not be brought up as a means of discussion/defence.
But what is going to keep the Prosecuting attorney from bring up the defendants religion as a basis for his/her crimes, since the attorney now knows the judges preference would that be a sound tactic, after all they bring up past sexual behavior of victims in rape cases.

So, the judge treats all defendents same, based on his Christian beliefs. If the judge treats everyone the same, based on the rule of law, is the wearing of the 10 Commandments an issue.
as I stated above say I’m up for theft (no need for a Jury in a lower case) the judge is wearing the 10 commandments and finds out (when I refuse to swear in and instead affirm) that I am not Christian (or Christian as he interprets it) wouldn’t the judge be biased against me? And again being an adversarial judicial system what is to stop the prosecuting attorney from exploiting the fact that this judge is a staunch Christian?

[Kae]

Or what if the person is wearing a standard piece of jewelry that represents their beliefs? It is common for Christians to wear crosses on necklaces and other beliefs have their own symbols that are just as recognizable.

The judge would know then. Should the person in the case be required to shed all synbols of their own faith to placate the judge?

Kae

[Nevada]

I would feel uncomfortable of a judge wearing any religious symbol so blatantly...either pentacle. cross etc....even in the pagan religions there are different denominations that don't always follow the same premises..however we are supposed to be assured that the laws of the land (no the laws of a god/religion) will be followed in a courtroom
plus, on a personal note, i feel only those very insecure about their beliefs feel the need to display it so outrageously..having pride in your faith is one thing and speaking of it to people when they request it is fine...but anything else otherwise is overkill

[Bonnie]

My beef is that I dont' think he's doing this because he's insecure in his beliefs. I think he's doing it because he feels his position gives him the authority and ability to promote his beliefs above those of his court. He's USING his position to promote one religious belief over any other, and that is a blatant disregard for the separation of church and state.

We were built on the belief that no man should be able to tell another how to worship, or what god they must believe in, and that no one should ever feel compelled otherwise.

To use his robes, the very symbol of government and justice that we live by, to imply that the laws of the Christian God are the laws by which he rules is to recklessly sever any separation between Christian law and secular law. It does, in effect, unite the two.

[Nevada]

but sheesh gold emboridery...thats overkill....

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

Of course the flip side of all of this is that it's somewhat comforting when religious nutjobs are considerate enough to visibly label themselves as such.

It's the not easily identifiable ones that I really worry about.

[Ysobelle]

Of course the flip side of all of this is that it's somewhat comforting when religious nutjobs are considerate enough to visibly label themselves as such.

It's the not easily identifiable ones that I really worry about.


Well put.



And as for "How would the judge know?", my last name sorta gives me away. It's highly unlikely I'd be Hindu.