WTF??? Wenches in VA/DE, this should anger you unbelievably!

[cyd]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/6/194434/1328

If you're not angry, you're not breathing.

If you live in this state, WRITE! NOW!

Thanks, Wendy, for pointing this out.

Cyd

[Bean]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't even LIVE in Va/De and I'm p*&#@d off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeannie Fitzgerald]

I wonder what the other five states are.

[Alianne]

Wow.

I'm completely stunned.

To this day, I *think* I had a miscarriage the month before my eldest was conceived. At least it was a menstrual cycle unlike one I'd ever experienced before.

It scares the crap out of me to think I would be in trouble legally because I didn't call the 'menses police' and say, "Um, hello? I think I may have had a miscarriage. If I did, I was maybe 3 weeks pregnant. No, I can't tell what sex the huge blob of blood and tissue I found in my extra absorbant maxipad is. Can you send someone over to check for me? Thanks."

Have I mentioned I'm completely stunned?

[pngwnmama]

Ok, that is going too far in my opinion!

[Entropy]

Alianne,

Ewwwww....

~D

Edited to request the mind's eye spork. Would someone pass it over, please?

[Ysobelle]

I think we're being played. This is an absolutely unenforceable law, and the only thing it can do at this point is serve to further shore up the idea that a fetus, at whatever stage it may be, is a life. In other words, this is another back-door attempt to make abortion illegal. THAT'S why I'm angry. Not because I think this law could ever, in a million years, fly, but because of what it represents.

Oh, and the right-to-privacy aspect. That, too.

It's not showing up on NOW or NARAL's websites yet, so I'm not sure they take it seriously, or even if it's entirely legit. I'll keep looking.



And vaguely apropos to this, I discovered last week I've been saying it wrong: it's Mi-fe-PRIS-tone, not Mi-FE-pri-stone.

[Alianne]

I think we're being played. This is an absolutely unenforceable law, and the only thing it can do at this point is serve to further shore up the idea that a fetus, at whatever stage it may be, is a life. In other words, this is another back-door attempt to make abortion illegal. THAT'S why I'm angry. Not because I think this law could ever, in a million years, fly, but because of what it represents.

Oh, and the right-to-privacy aspect. That, too.

It's not showing up on NOW or NARAL's websites yet, so I'm not sure they take it seriously, or even if it's entirely legit. I'll keep looking.



And vaguely apropos to this, I discovered last week I've been saying it wrong: it's Mi-fe-PRIS-tone, not Mi-FE-pri-stone.

According to some posts on the board where Cyd found the article, the senator who has proposed this law has replied to emails about it....so apparently in his mind, at least, it's legit.

[Alianne]

Alianne,

Ewwwww....

~D

Edited to request the mind's eye spork. Would someone pass it over, please?

Ew, indeed.

But if this becomes law, this could be the sort of thing that would have to happen for women to protect themselves.

Here, have a spork. ;)

[Ysobelle]

I think we're being played. This is an absolutely unenforceable law, and the only thing it can do at this point is serve to further shore up the idea that a fetus, at whatever stage it may be, is a life. In other words, this is another back-door attempt to make abortion illegal. THAT'S why I'm angry. Not because I think this law could ever, in a million years, fly, but because of what it represents.

Oh, and the right-to-privacy aspect. That, too.

It's not showing up on NOW or NARAL's websites yet, so I'm not sure they take it seriously, or even if it's entirely legit. I'll keep looking.



And vaguely apropos to this, I discovered last week I've been saying it wrong: it's Mi-fe-PRIS-tone, not Mi-FE-pri-stone.

According to some posts on the board where Cyd found the article, the senator who has proposed this law has replied to emails about it....so apparently in his mind, at least, it's legit.


http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+sum+HB1677

It's also on the website of the Virginia Legislature, so yeah, it apparently is. Again, in his mind.


Grrrrrr.....

[Drea Beth]

The first thing that came to my mind reading the link is, if I knew I was pregnant and thought I was miscarrying, I think I'd call an ambulance right away and not wait for my SO to get home. And I know I'd call the doctor for an exam ASAP. But that's just me.

With that said, to legislate a period of time in which you must report a naturally aborted pregnancy is up there with, well, I don't know what. It's so outlandish I can't even imagine. I also half expected the article to say that a miscarriage would land you in jail. The anti-abortion folks are pretty weird.

Think I'll have to see what's on the books in NJ.

[Ysobelle]

Don't forget this link.


http://naral.org/yourstate/whodecides/index.cfm

[Psyche]

As a woman who has had more miscarriages than I have fingers, this made me livid when I read about it earlier.

I had to snicker in a most evil manner when I read this on the site frm the link:
I've read a few good comments on BFA when I first mentioned this story last night...like that if this becomes law, all menstruating women should call their police departments every month to report possible losses of products of conception. I mean, we wouldn't want to run afoul of the law, right? Since something like 30-50% of all pregnancies are lost in the first few weeks, usually without the woman knowing, it might be better to be safe than sorry.
ARRRRRGGGHHH!
Better yet, send the tampons and pads and blood from Instead and other cups.

I actually had to fill out the death certificate when I miscarried in August of 2003 and had to have a D&C. If I had not been so sedated, I would have gone off on the people who literally *made* me fill it out.

[Psyche]

An actual reply from Representative Cosgrove:
"This bill, which was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department, is an attempt to reduce the number of "trashcan" babies that are born and then abandoned in trashcans, toilets, or elsewhere to die from exposure or worse. There are numerous examples of these tragic deaths in Virginia, many in Northern Virginia and also in Hampton Roads. Once the body of a child is found, if the death of that child is undetermined by a coroner, the person abandoning that child can only be charged with "the improper disposal of a human body".

*blink blink blink*
*mind boggles*

[Drea Beth]

Don't forget this link.


http://naral.org/yourstate/whodecides/index.cfm

Thanks Nikki. Now I have to ponder. (Not on topic, but the thing about minor notification kinda baffles me. A minor can't get their appendix out without parental consent unless it is a life/death emergency. Why should an abortion be different. And what if the kid dies during the procedure that the parents knew nothing about. Who's responsibility is that.) Not trying to jack the thread or have a discussion about parental notification... just pondering. Stuff like this pulls me out of my self created comfort zone and requires a lot of thinking and re-thinking.

Again, thanks for the link.

[Alianne]

I actually had to fill out the death certificate when I miscarried in August of 2003 and had to have a D&C. If I had not been so sedated, I would have gone off on the people who literally *made* me fill it out.

Geez....I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I'm truly sorry.

:grouphug:

[Gemdrite]

The anti-abortion folks are pretty weird.

Hey, we aren't all weird...*looks at self* ok, nm, I take that back.

However, this had better not get passed. The idea is just insane, and while I can understand the reasoning behind it, this is definitely not the answer. There has to be a better way to lower the amount of trashcan babies.

[Drea Beth]

The anti-abortion folks are pretty weird.

Hey, we aren't all weird...*looks at self* ok, nm, I take that back.


I perfer to think of myself as "unique"! :star:

Point taken.

[Margaret]

I sent the link to the article to my, well, guess she would be my Aunt-in-Law. At any rate, professionally, Bethany is a RN in Virginia and the director of a Dial-A-Nurse service (can't recall what hospital she's affiliated with). When she writes back, I will let you know what she says.

[Nevada]

okay now that I have picked my jaw off the ground....why is this idiot punishing women?! Thats how I see it....they already have the trauma of miscarrying and now they may have to report every flibbing detail?! Good grief....I have a couple of friends who are still grieving over their miscarriages...

[Margaret]

Heard back from Bethany. She had not heard of the legislation either. Below is her response (edited out the personal stuff).

Since she sent it to the paper, maybe enough people will hear about this and squash it.

Mags.

________________________

Bethany wrote:

I was absolutely appalled!!! Chesapeake is one of our Hampton Roads cities. I sent it to a friend to send to the Daily Press because I havent seen anything about it in the paper. Thank you.


Bethany Balmer
Riverside School of Health Careers
Dir., Student Services

[emalia]

I find this absolutely disgusting!!!
However, I think that if they do pass it, we should all call once a month and advise them that we have miscarried, as since we possibly could have been preg, I want to make sure my bases are covered.

[Dragonfly]

That...is...utterly outrageous.
I miscarried when I was 18. I was in so much pain and so much shock that when I was done with the initial cramping, I packed up my books and went to class. Did I mention I was in shock??
Nobody should have to fill out paperwork during that time in their life. There's too much else going on for one bastard's intrusive idea of What Is Right to take presidence! that's a time to be with loved ones.
God...is it possible to boycott a state? I feel like it at this moment. Perhaps we should adjust it so that every time men ejaculate they have to call in...just in case. You know, the loss of conceptive whatever-the-called-it.

Why do people feel the need to wage a war on women and reproduction like this?

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

God...is it possible to boycott a state?

Make that plural and you're asking the question I've been asking over and over since Novermber 2nd. :-)

[MacKahlia]

:shock:
they have GOT to be kidding. This is ridiculus. I had a friend miscarry and she didnt make it to work for two weeks. I waited a MONTH to give her a sympathy card just so she would be able to handle it... and they want to make her report????

This is absolutely offensive... ridiculus and impossible to uphold. It worries me though, because some people will follow along because well, its a fetus. I'll save my personal opinions on that, but if a woman doesnt know she is pregnant, or her body natural disposes of, and she doesnt go to a hospital (where it would be noted).... then well, guess, its not a fetus yet. Its tissue. Plan and simple.

UGH
:augh:
The biologist is going to go put her head through the wall... I'll be back...

[daBaroness]

As if losing a wanted pregnancy isn't painful enough - both emotionally and physically - now women may have to report their pain and suffering to some governmental bureaucrat?! It'll never fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Besides - what about spontaneous abortions - miscarriages that occur without the mother-to-be knowing she's in the "family way" ... sometimes within 24 hours of conception?!

If this is supposed to be a solution to the tragedy of "trashcan" babies (lord what a hideous term), then whomever is in charge of problem-solving needs to be fired!!!!!

Yeah - add more shame to women - like we ain't got enough foisted upon us?! How about some education and enlightenment of these stunods? Better yet - how about providing mandatory sterilization for anyone who supports such preposterous proposals!

[Mistress Morigianna]

hmmm maybe all men should report when they masterbate just in case it might have come in contact somewhere with an egg .........

[kendermom]

Done the miscarriage thing... It sucked. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think of the child that never was. That government officials are shoving their noses into the privacy of a woman's personal heartbreak is offensive and disgusting.
If this is being thought of in a state like Virginia, how long until the Highest Office goes just as far? Oh, wait, they already have by telling the American public that Marriage is between man and woman, and the (rumor, don't remember where I heard it) multi-billion dollar 'defense of marriage' bill.

"That's it! I'm moving to Sparta!!!" (Hercules)

[Mistress Kristi]

An actual reply from Representative Cosgrove:
"This bill, which was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department, is an attempt to reduce the number of "trashcan" babies that are born and then abandoned in trashcans, toilets, or elsewhere to die from exposure or worse. There are numerous examples of these tragic deaths in Virginia, many in Northern Virginia and also in Hampton Roads. Once the body of a child is found, if the death of that child is undetermined by a coroner, the person abandoning that child can only be charged with "the improper disposal of a human body".

*blink blink blink*
*mind boggles*

What I want to know is what his thought process was to connect these two things. I mean, giving birth and then throwing the child in the garbage is a completely different than a natural miscarriage.

[Dorei]

Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths and all that the person responsible could be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for twelve hours comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. After discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I will include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict this type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage, and I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman.

I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove

[Eric McTavish]

[quote=Drea Beth]**snip**and while I can understand the reasoning behind it,**snip**

I cant even understand the reasoning behind it...

hmmm maybe all men should report when they masterbate just in case it might have come in contact somewhere with an egg .........

The cops thing their overworked and understaffed now... :shock:

[Ariana McDonnough]

I'm totally appalled at this possible bill becoming a law in VA/DE. It goes against the Constitution. This delegate is a complete idiot and should have his private parts removed for even coming up with this idea.

I know the pain of stillbirth and miscarriage - it's not fun and the pain still remains, but has dullen over time. I would love to write to this guy and tell him what I really think of his idea.

Rant over....for now

[Gemdrite]

I meant, I can understand that they are trying to cut down on the number of trashcan babies, and that I am all for. But the wording wasn't the best, by a long shot.

[Eric McTavish]

got ya...Gemdrite
:D

[CinD]

An actual reply from Representative Cosgrove:
"This bill, which was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department, is an attempt to reduce the number of "trashcan" babies that are born and then abandoned in trashcans, toilets, or elsewhere to die from exposure or worse. There are numerous examples of these tragic deaths in Virginia, many in Northern Virginia and also in Hampton Roads. Once the body of a child is found, if the death of that child is undetermined by a coroner, the person abandoning that child can only be charged with "the improper disposal of a human body".

*blink blink blink*
*mind boggles*

Just keep reminding yourself - and I mean no disrespect here, just pointing out their possible ignorance on the situation - these are MEN designing these laws. Just like they design our shoes. I don't think they really know any better - they certainly have no idea how it feels. Such a violation.

And this issue goes right up there with the pharmacist being allowed to determine whether or not I can receive a filled prescription for birth control. Who is HE to decide? If it goes against his religious beliefs, then perhaps he is in the wrong profession.

It's 2005 - there really is no need to back into time. If you look closely - do your research - you may even find that these laws are being changed by people who are first or second generation Americans. All that has been fought for in the past will now need to be fought for again.

Don't sit back and do nothing. Get out and vote. Write e-mails and letters. A quiet voice is one that is not heard. Make a difference. There is power in numbers. ;-)

{hugs} c

[Ysobelle]

Okay, now, wait a minute.

If, as was quoted, the proposed law only applies to women who deliver viable babies who are born dead, and do not notify a doctor, then yes, I see the problem. I don't know that criminalising them is the answer, but we all know there are women who don't want the babies they have and will do horrible things to them.

Generally, though, I think said women need help, not jail time. I also don't know that it's such a vast problem that we need to have some kind of new bill to cover it. But then, this isn't exactly a stat I've researched.

[KissMeKate]

Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. ...
My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries.

...I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,
John A. Cosgrove

Ok, that's all well and good. :roll: But I don't see a definition of delivery versus miscarriage. Is it based on the term the pregnancy is in or some other factor? And if you try to define those terms, there will be heck from every direction. It seems that many of these "trashcan" babies (and I agree that is a horrible term) may be from women who young, and may not even understand that they are pregnant.

Perhaps instead of paying more lawyers and politicians to make up more confusing laws, perhaps we need to put more money into better education for our children (in all manners of education)!

[Ysobelle]

Perhaps instead of paying more lawyers and politicians to make up more confusing laws, perhaps we need to put more money into better education for our children (in all manners of education)!


I agree, but I'll also add that the most famous cases we hear about-- the girl who had her baby at the Prom, the kids who had a baby in a motel room-- seem to involve young women in serious denial or under horrific stress. While I agree what they do is unequivocally wrong, I think throwing them in jail does nothing useful. They need serious, long-term counseling. I don't know if criminal prosecution will really solve anything. I just don't think you're dealing with women who are capable of thinking straight.

[Mistress Morigianna]

Perhaps instead of paying more lawyers and politicians to make up more confusing laws, perhaps we need to put more money into better education for our children (in all manners of education)!

perhaps they should have the same law as here in california that should be widly more published that if you have a baby and don't want it you may walk into a emergency room and hand it over to someone without fear of abandonment charges or too many questions. This was started so that less people would hide or kill thier babies and seems to be working when they know they won't be put in jail.

I also would like to know where the line is drawn between a miscarriage and birth.
Are we going to get down to hown many weeks?

[cyd]

Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. ...
My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries.

...I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,
John A. Cosgrove

Ok, that's all well and good. :roll: But I don't see a definition of delivery versus miscarriage. Is it based on the term the pregnancy is in or some other factor? And if you try to define those terms, there will be heck from every direction. It seems that many of these "trashcan" babies (and I agree that is a horrible term) may be from women who young, and may not even understand that they are pregnant.

Perhaps instead of paying more lawyers and politicians to make up more confusing laws, perhaps we need to put more money into better education for our children (in all manners of education)!

Exactly. The code of virginia with respect to babies has definitions here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+32.1-249

Nowhere in there does it say that there is a difference between "delivery" and "miscarriage".

It DOES however state that "Fetal death" means death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, regardless of the duration of pregnancy; death is indicated by the fact that after such expulsion or extraction the fetus does not breathe or show any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles.

So in other words, TRASH CAN BABIES NOT INCLUDED.

If fetal death is death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, it means if the baby is completely born and outside of his mother, then the definiton of fetal death does not come into play, and many trash can babies can be described as "live birth" and dumped later. The baby has to be dead before coming out to be considered "fetal death". At which point, if the mother has "expelled" (ye gods, I hate that term) a dead baby, then it is a miscarriage.

The definitions don't jibe.

[Jeannie Fitzgerald]

perhaps they should have the same law as here in california that should be widly more published that if you have a baby and don't want it you may walk into a emergency room and hand it over to someone without fear of abandonment charges or too many questions. This was started so that less people would hide or kill thier babies and seems to be working when they know they won't be put in jail.

We have the same law here in AZ (fire stations are also included; no questions are asked either place) and it doesn't seem to be working.

[Lady Laurel]

I know in Texas about two years ago they passed a law that if you bring a baby to any hospital and leave it at the front door the mother who abanded it would not be charged. They had problems with babies being abandoned in dumpster( I believe it was if anyone from Texas remember correct me). There was also teenage girls abandoning babies in girls bathrooms.

I too dont believe it is anyones right to get in a womens business when she is had a miscarriage. I had one at 19. I had no idea in the first place what was happening to me. It is nobody's business least off all congress.

[Galleywench]

The absolute depth of stupidity that some people can achieve is astounding.

[Branwen]

I know that this issue drives many crazy, but Cyd did post an update a while back. The thread is: "Woo hoo! We won! "Fetal Death" amendment withdrawn". The proposed amendment has been wothdrawn.