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Nevada
02-02-2005, 11:25 AM
This article is long but very interesting and scary enough to give me palpitations



Once they came for us - Descending into ignorance Email this page Print this page
Posted: January 27, 2005
by: Editors Report / Indian Country Today


Then they came for me

''First they came for the Communists,

and I didn't speak up,

because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak up,

because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,

and I didn't speak up,

because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,

and by that time there was no one

left to speak up for me.''

- Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945



In the same way America's CIA in the 1980s unleashed the violent aspirations of the Mujahidin in Afghanistan, letting the terrorist genie out of that bottle, the call to fundamentalist Christian movement in American politics, encouraged by the current leadership of the GOP, holds the potential to unleash consequences that diminish the open society concept in America, perhaps irrevocably.

It is always a dangerous thing when a country's government turns increasingly fundamentalist around one particular faith, including Christianity. Whatever the attacks on the liberal philosophy, which the ''Christian'' right harshly condemns as the work of the devil on earth, the notion of a secular, tolerant, open-minded society remains the best possible way to democratic intelligence and truth in decision making.

We believe this to be a self-evident truth and one of the most genial of all the foundational elements of the American republic. Formed socially and intellectually from the social climate of the European enlightenment and influenced by American Indian social and governmental examples, the political thought of the U.S. founding fathers rode on some wonderful ''new'' notions of human intellectual, social and personal freedoms. Dominant among these was the freedom of intellectual, scientific pursuit of knowledge, free, precisely, from the dogma of the major Christian churches, given as these were to condemn all new knowledge that might contradict any of their faith-based dictums and mandates.

This was the best of the freedom that America pledged to sustain. Indian people early joined this debate over their own spiritual concepts and traditions with Christian missionaries and what comes across from those early documents is how versatile and free the Indian thinkers were relative to the ''black robes'' who came among them. Indian people died in large numbers to maintain their independence of culture and ownership of their own lands, even as many chose to embrace the narratives of Christian culture beyond or in addition to their own indigenous narratives of emergence and Creation.

Reducing social truth to a literal interpretation of the Bible is a surefire way to dumb down the American populace and diminish or retard the many advances made in education and general public enlightenment (including public policy) for several generations. There are those who are inspired by the wish to manipulate others who are prone to homily as a political bloc. The new Christian religious exposition is not benign - not because the Christian faith lacks wisdom or compassion - but because those who would manipulate these spiritual sentiments politically are usually political activists bent on acquiring power irrespective of the proliferation of ignorance.

The strategy, employed again and again, is to create national and international crisis out of particular problems and complex social situations. Howard Dean, with whom we had our differences, identified this during the recent presidential campaign: ''Guns, God and Gays are the fear-factor issues.'' When these are used and abused to trigger powerful emotions in people, careful discussion becomes impossible and only tense, browbeating argumentation follows.

We are encouraged that more and more voices are challenging this notion of what represents the American republic. There is alarm, finally, that religious faith-based belief is seriously challenging scientific method and the diffusion of knowledge across many school districts in a wide variety of states. The theory of evolution for one is widely challenged by creationists dressed under the banner of ''intelligent design.'' What concerns is not the challenge itself, as scientific assertion must always be ready for ongoing challenge, but the fact that the challenge has no such basis in the intellectually accepted scientific method of rigorous inquiry. Rather, ''intelligent design'' is simply well conceptualized and crafted ideological garbage.

It shocked many people recently when CBS polling revealed that 55 percent of Americans do not believe in evolution. This jumps by 12 percent to 67 percent for people who voted for President Bush. But this should not surprise, considering that, according to Gallup, one third of Americans believe the Bible literally. Professing tolerance for the possible truth of other religious points of view is nearly impossible for this mindset. In the states of Wisconsin, Montana, South Carolina, Kansas, Arkansas and Mississippi, organized parent groups of this persuasion have consistently pressured against the teaching of evolution. Usually they substitute the term ''intelligent design'' for creationism in their curriculums, but they are really talking about the genesis of the Christian Bible as literal truth - a position from which they will not deviate.

That ''intelligent design'' as euphemism for direct divine intervention as science in public schools is a clear violation of the principle of separation of church and state is apparently not much of an issue yet, but it needs to be. As religious faith overlays public policy debate, the very science of government, compromise and negotiation, become moot. The principle that guides religious faith has no compatibility with the leeway and tolerance required of legislators. Other recent research (Public Agenda) points out that support for political compromise is diminishing rapidly among American evangelicals of a literal-Bible persuasion, indeed, among all Christians. These are people for whom, as columnist William Raspberry wrote, ''compromise between righteousness and sin is: Sin.''

The most ominous of all these trends is the ''millions of Christian fundamentalists,'' as Bill Moyers the journalist-philosopher recently remarked, who ''believe that environmental destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - even hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse.'' America and the world do not deserve to be guided by such ignorance.

Moyers reminds us this trend goes back to James Watt, President Reagan's first secretary of the Interior, who: ''Told the U.S. Congress that protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus Christ.'' In public testimony he said, ''after the last tree is felled, Christ will come back.'' These days, the belief resonates strongly, Moyers goes on, with ''nearly half the U.S. Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total - more since the election - [who] are backed by the religious right.''

The Washington Post (Jan. 23) complains that a dumbing down of America is the result of the faith-based government, warning that it can leave our country's science flank vulnerable to the new waves of scientists coming out of Asia and Europe. We agree, but would add that a public bigotry against science goes hand in hand with a public bigotry and ignorance against other, non-Christian faiths. The underlying aggression of militant missionizing, that is, the willingness to accost others directly in order to proselytize and impose a religious view - this has been suffered greatly by Indian peoples of the Americas.

And once before, as conquering saviors, they came for us en masse. Under the notion of militant Christianity was institutionalized this country's greatest misguided social experiment: The Indian boarding schools of the early 20th century, whose official intent was to destroy all that was core in American Indian spiritual belief and ritual, in order to ''kill the Indian and save the man.''

Indeed, for American Indian tribal peoples, the experience of the Christian mission has been difficult to digest. The good that it has brought is shrouded in substantial darkness and abuse. Christianization often imposed itself with the intent to fill the full glass of the Indian mind, intending to drown out the indigenous intelligence, sometimes as an invention of the devil himself. This was the general social premise of an imposed ''educational'' experience where various Christian denominations bid for ''their Indians'' region by region and reservation by reservation, until most were divided for each particular brand of evangelism. This system (as overwhelming force) lasted more than half the century in various ways and it was accompanied by the formal criminalizing of Indian ceremonial spiritual practices that reflected comprehensive and pragmatic religious traditions.

We suggest that dogma and truth are completely different things. There is religious dogma. There is scientific dogma. And there is truth.

Dogma - scientific or religious - is not truth. Truth is elusive. Dogma is not elusive at all. Dogma is always concrete in the mind of the dogmatic. While truth reveals itself sparingly, and best to those with humble attitude, dogma is the brick that hits you in the head from both sides. Dogma does not reveal but imposes itself upon all weary- and weak-minded people, convincing all who will listen of their worthlessness and presumed damnation, but for the power and the path of light offered only by itself. Dogma seeks converts to justify itself. Truth is, and can be found, by intuition and by method. Elusive, it will yield itself always to serious intent and respectful treatment. It has huge natural power that directs itself.

When dogma leads, times become hard and suffering increases. Truth is given by the hand of nature to the open and curious mind of the human being but it can only come to where it is sought, where it can be useful, where it is appreciated.

Let no one be fooled. The religious fundamentalism that is sweeping America poses a serious threat to the advancement of an American culture that learns and grows from rationally applied inquiry and investigation. From an American Indian perspective derived from cultural roots that reach back to the earliest consciousness of these lands, we state clearly that what we are witnessing in America is not American at all. The time has come for all Americans of mature intelligence and courage to speak out against fundamentalist religious doctrine and intolerance and those who would benefit from America's descent into ignorance.

Kae
02-02-2005, 04:13 PM
Wow, I see what you mean. It begins with one of the best quotes I have ever heard - especially if you know the background. That was a well-said argument for keeping our heads far enough above ground to have our opinions heard.

Thanks Vada

Captain Stamina
02-02-2005, 04:25 PM
Not to slight the importance of Rev. Martin Niemoller’s quote, the author has turned this quote into a bashing of ‘Christianity’.

This editorial is a long dissertation that promotes the idea the ‘fundamental Christians’ (and any ‘Christian’ by association because of their belief, are fundamentalists), are evil bigots and (along with the GOP) have taking over the government and must be stopped from destroying the education system.

While this starts with the “blame America” idea that we created terrorists in Afghanistan, as memory serves, it was the USSR that invaded Afghanistan during the Carter administration, and the US response was to boycott the Olympics. It was under Reagan that the CIA supplied the arms that eventually caused the Soviet army to withdraw.

There’s the attempt to equate the ‘Christians’ of two hundred years ago to present day ‘Christians’. Although some of them haven’t changed since then, I think it’s fair to say most 'Christians' today are fairly tolerant. Of course having the main stream media only publishing comments made by the most outlandish ‘Christians’ and implying that this is the current mindset of all ‘Christians’ is like quoting Dr. Dean or Hillary and saying he or she represents all Democrats, or Charles Manson represents all American males.

There is the use of CBS and Gallup poll data, but no reference as to where or when the data was taken, or how the calculations were actually made. It's not hard to manipulate data to give you the results you want.

I don’t believe that “a dumbing down of America is a result of the faith-based government…” (ref: 12th Paragraph). I have read the reports of kids graduating from high school and have to take remedial courses before going to college to learn to do math, read and write, and I've seen HS graduates that can't spell or do basic math. Sorry, but the dumbing down has already occurred.

And then there’s the ultimate whine of “separation of church and state”. For the umpteenth time, that clause does not appear in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or any amendment to the constitution. I guess someone didn't pay attention during civic class.

While the author decries ‘Christian’ doctrine being taught in schools, but doesn’t provide any corresponding comments having kids spending a week learning and practicing the Muslim beliefs.

It would have been a more meaningful editorial had the author insisted that public schools spend more time teaching reading, writing, math, basic economics and civics, than advocate that the demise of the entire education system is imminent because of a small group of people.

AnnaFaerie
02-02-2005, 04:52 PM
Well said, Captain, well said.

Nevada
02-02-2005, 06:20 PM
Remember he is speaking from a Native American perspective, where well into the 1930s and in some areas beyond...Indian children were taken from their families and placed in "boarding schools" mostly run by evangelical fundamentalist societies...

He also acknowledges it isnt the religion but those who would use it twistedly in the pursuit of power that he is having a problem with. Unfortunately religion has been used as a tool in politics and a way to control the masses for millenia by everyone, pagan or christian, rather than as a source of joy and comfort......

Kae
02-02-2005, 07:51 PM
Well said.

As a teacher, I see too many teenagers ready to believe the words of radio announcers, newspapers, magazines and singers. They can quote them verbatum, but God (any God) forbid that they look up information and formulate their own opinion. It is a very frustrating wall to try and hammer through.

Many have forgotten what happened to the Native American culture. The perspective of Native Americans on current politics in the USA must be different than mine - their background is extremely different than mine. My family wasn't seperated from each other to make them more "american". I don't see the author as bashing a whole religion, just what has been done in the name of that religion. And while, I know for a fact that it isn't the members of a whole religion that commit atrocities and therefore their hands are clean - those same members did nothing to stop the atrocities either. Maybe they didn't see them going on, maybe they felt that what was happening was right, maybe they were too busy in their own lives. Whatever the reason, their inaction allowed things to continue. Today, we see Christianity being taken to its limit. Many of the people in the news are extremists, many are just looking for attention. The problem is, they are the ones in the news and they are doing things in the name of their religion. It puts a bad light on the religion when no one else steps up and says - "Hey, that is just his opinion not all of our opinions". As when the Towers went down - everyone looked at every Muslim on the street and on the Tv and though "terrorist". That was an incorrect thought. The islamic mother in California did not condone that act. The islamic husband who lost a wife in the act - did not condone it or plan it. It has taken a lot of advertising and community outreach to make Americans realize that not all Muslims are terrorists. It will take a lot of both to make non-Christian Americans and others, realize that Christianity in America is not led by the vocal fanatical but by the quietly active moderates. Until others understand this, there will always be the fear in the back of my mind that one day there will be no-one to speak for me.

Kae

Captain Stamina
02-08-2005, 09:28 AM
Looks like the Moyer's quote has been fabricated.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42748

Why bother checking the facts before writing?.

Nevada
02-08-2005, 10:34 AM
thanks Capt...another misquote...was the rest of the article correct though?

Captain Stamina
02-08-2005, 11:29 AM
Most of the article is opinion and limited in presenting any facts. Outside of what I’ve already cited in terms of the facts, it’s difficult to say who’s right or wrong. I’m not a historian on the Native American history and culture; as such I can not make comment on the accuracy of the comments made.

But he does pose one question for me. In the summary he states, “The religious fundamentalism that is sweeping America poses a serious threat to the advancement of an American culture that learns and grows from rationally applied inquiry and investigation.”

Does this mean that the Catholic (and other private religious) schools have been or are threatening advancement of American culture? Not having attended a religious based school, I would have to defer to someone that has.

Nevada
02-08-2005, 02:54 PM
I spoke to a friend who spent many years in parochial school...(hell as she likes to call it)...the only threat is when one religion tries restrict belief in any religion but their own and tries to eradicate any alternate thought using any means necessary ie politics...forced conversion etc....she still practices catholicism but advises it was a long road to find a moderate catholic church...she types any religion that refuses to share a space with any other religion as fanatical funamentalism....share and share alike...I wish we worked in the same dept....she is one of the few folks I will speak about religion too especially at work....though we dont do it often....

Jessa
02-08-2005, 04:49 PM
But he does pose one question for me. In the summary he states, “The religious fundamentalism that is sweeping America poses a serious threat to the advancement of an American culture that learns and grows from rationally applied inquiry and investigation.”

Does this mean that the Catholic (and other private religious) schools have been or are threatening advancement of American culture? Not having attended a religious based school, I would have to defer to someone that has.
I think that complaint is directed more towards efforts to change public school curriculum. The fundamentalists are pushing hard to get their beliefs and values to be taught, to the exclusion of any others. There is nothing wrong with this in a private religious school, but the public school is supposed to be a public resource for all American children. They are trying to censor reading lists to remove literature that doesn’t display their values, and trying to eradicate the teaching of the theory of evolution, which is a basic foundation of modern biology. These are the first steps on a path towards to the complete replacement of standard curriculum.

They are displaying an unwillingness to allow anything but their own fundamentalist views be voiced, by seeking to reduce America to a monoculture of their own design. The defining characteristic of a fundamentalist movement is a strict adherence to the exact letter of the movement’s doctrine. No one should attempt to question the accepted interpretation of anything, or expand their thinking beyond the fundamentals of the faith. This rigid thinking is what stifles “rationally applied inquiry and investigation”.

Combine fundamentalist rigidity of thought with the public school system, and you get a society that is no longer trained in critical thinking. Our system of self-rule is much like the scientific method in that it is rooted in self-analysis as a means of improvement. We need the ability to question our own actions, and the actions of others, in order to maintain a functional system.

Emrld
02-08-2005, 04:51 PM
I think that I would also enjoy converations with her. . . .make her a wench -
It truly isn't a religion it is a lifestyle

Nevada
02-08-2005, 05:56 PM
Wasn't it the rule of Amenhotep (Tuts uncle?) that tried to force a monotheistic religion on his country to the exclusion of any other religion being exercised....that ended badly if I remember my history correctly...I will never understand why people can't be left alone to worship whom they wish in private....and why some people insist only their religion is the valid one...I have always enjoyed a quote from a book I have...the character is cursing...."by the nine billion names of God" which essentially is the truth..we all see the creator, just in different forms and by different names....except for atheists who chose a non belief...

Cyranno DeBoberac
02-08-2005, 06:23 PM
Looking at the article the Capt. referenced....

From:http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42748

A passage of text from the House Interior Committee session in February 1981:

Watt: Absolutely. That is the delicate balance the secretary of the interior must have, to be steward for the natural resources for this generation as well as future generations.

I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns, whatever it is we have to manage with a skill to leave the resources needed for future generations.

Weaver: Mr. Chairman, I want to conclude, if I might, seeing the secretary brought up the Lord, with a story.

The Chairman: The conversation will be in order.

Weaver: In my district, Mr. Chairman, there are some who do not like wilderness. They do not like it at all. I would try to plead with them. I go around my district and say do you not believe -- I would plead with their religious sensibilities -- that we should leave some of our land the way we received it from the Creator?

I have said this frequently throughout my district. I got a letter from a constituent. ... He said, "Mr. Weaver, if the Lord wanted to leave his forest lands, some of them in the way that we got them from Him," he said, "why did He send His only Son down to earth as a carpenter?"

[Laughter]

Weaver: That stumped us. That stumped us until one of my aides, an absolute genius, said that the Lord Jesus before He determined His true mission spent 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness.

[Laughter]



WTF?!?!

Your tax dollars at work.... :roll:

Maybe if congressmen spent less time discussing fairy tales and more time attending to the business of government, maybe something constructive would actually get done from time to time.

:?

Captain Stamina
02-09-2005, 09:05 AM
WTF?!?!

Your tax dollars at work.... :roll:

Maybe if congressmen spent less time discussing fairy tales and more time attending to the business of government, maybe something constructive would actually get done from time to time.

:?

There is a way to get them to do what their supposed to do, it's called "TERM LIMITS". Unfortunately it's something that I'll never see in my lifetime.