Unemployment in Germany - What's your view on this article?

[CinD]

What would you do and how would you feel about this if it were to become a part of your life??? :wink: {hugs} c


'If you don't take a job as a prostitute, we can stop your benefits'
By Clare Chapman
(Filed: 30/01/2005)

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalized in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realize that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalize people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specializes in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.

Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.

Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalized in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organized crime.

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.

"They are already prepared to push women into jobs related to sexual services, but which don't count as prostitution,'' she said.

"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."

[Eric McTavish]

Actually this is a miss-report, the German government will not remove benefits if someone chooses not to become a prostitute, however with new laws in Germany the Brothels are now given the same access to employment databases as all other business, so someone unemployed could (and have) received offers of employment from area brothels, however the Assistance program is NOT refusing or removing benefits from ladies who refuses the offer of work.

[CinD]

Actually this is a miss-report, the German government will not remove benefits if someone chooses not to become a prostitute, however with new laws in Germany the Brothels are now given the same access to employment databases as all other business, so someone unemployed could (and have) received offers of employment from area brothels, however the Assistance program is NOT refusing or removing benefits from ladies who refuses the offer of work.

That's good to hear and I'm glad the article miss-reports the information. However, here's another question for you - do you know if this is including the MEN who are available through those same employment banks? No offense, Eric, but I believe if prostitution is going to be made legal, accepted across an entire country, and allowed to take advantage of the employment *banks* to get their employees, why does it come across as just the women being involved???

Personally, I'm a prude, terribly patriotic with a love for my freedom of choice, and stuck with rather high morals - I wouldn't want someone taking away my ability to being able to feed, clothe, and house myself (and any family/children I may have) by taking away any unemployment benefits I may be entitled to because I don't want to have sex or have to perform sexual acts with complete strangers for money. Hell, there's times during the month when I don't even want to have sex with the man I love with all my heart and been married to for the past 22 years!

However, we all have the right to our opinions - some people (men & women) might really enjoy this type of employment. I just don't go for the *forcing* feature of the supposed rules - miss-reported or not, I found this offensive. :wink:

{hugs} c

[biker]

funny whe nI was in Hamburg in 88 prostitution was legal.

[CinD]

funny whe nI was in Hamburg in 88 prostitution was legal.

Legal prostitution is all well and good - don't have a problem with that, especially if it is the type of job someone really enjoys and wants to do. What I have a problem with is the supposed statement that individuals looking for work through the employment banks *have* to take a position as a prostitute if they want to keep their unemployment benefits. Think about it - what if the woman was a virgin and didn't want to - or know how to - be involved with this type of work.

I'm sorry guys - it's just an issue for me and I find it distasteful. I think I would feel this way if I felt anyone in any profession was being *forced* to do something that they might not want to do - sort of on the line of *rape* to me. Make sense?

oiy. :thinking:

{hugs} c

[Eric McTavish]

[
That's good to hear and I'm glad the article miss-reports the information. However, here's another question for you - do you know if this is including the MEN who are available through those same employment banks? No offense, Eric, but I believe if prostitution is going to be made legal, accepted across an entire country, and allowed to take advantage of the employment *banks* to get their employees, why does it come across as just the women being involved???

Personally, I'm a prude, terribly patriotic with a love for my freedom of choice, and stuck with rather high morals - I wouldn't want someone taking away my ability to being able to feed, clothe, and house myself (and any family/children I may have) by taking away any unemployment benefits I may be entitled to because I don't want to have sex or have to perform sexual acts with complete strangers for money. Hell, there's times during the month when I don't even want to have sex with the man I love with all my heart and been married to for the past 22 years!

However, we all have the right to our opinions - some people (men & women) might really enjoy this type of employment. I just don't go for the *forcing* feature of the supposed rules - miss-reported or not, I found this offensive. :wink:
{hugs} c

Yes it does include men (however there is a lack of need for male prostitues) the stickler hers is the Gov can require someone to take a position in the sex industry just not as a "working girl" i.e. a book-keeper/accountant could be required to take a position as a bookeeper for a brothel or porn shop etc... but not as a hooker.

[CinD]

Yes it does include men (however there is a lack of need for male prostitues) the stickler hers is the Gov can require someone to take a position in the sex industry just not as a "working girl" i.e. a book-keeper/accountant could be required to take a position as a bookeeper for a brothel or porn shop etc... but not as a hooker.

Well, that makes sense, and would certainly be preferable. Maybe I misread the article (?), but it just came across to me like this woman would have to have sex - in whatever way required - with brothel customers. Bookeeper or receptionist, I don't think there would have been that big of an issue unless it was really really really against someone's religious beliefs, you know?

{hugs} c

[Eric McTavish]

Well, that makes sense, and would certainly be preferable. Maybe I misread the article (?), but it just came across to me like this woman would have to have sex - in whatever way required - with brothel customers. Bookeeper or receptionist, I don't think there would have been that big of an issue unless it was really really really against someone's religious beliefs, you know?

{hugs} c

no you didn't miss-read the article it was intended for you to take it like that, much like some ultra-right (or left) wing newspapers et-all slant the story in their favor, the same thing with this story my folks in Germany don’t want the "red light" business to have the same rights as other business but want them to have to pay all the same taxes!

BTW Biker prostitution in Germany has been legal for a while but only in licensed districts... now it legal nation wide.

[Lady Laurel]

This disturbs me because ( and I do agree that people have the right to work wherever they are pleased) What is the age that these women? Also prostitution is a type of profession that keeps women down and does not promote self respect. It is a dangerous environment and now the government legalizes it. I know that in different parts off the world prostitution is legal but how many are underage have drug problems and have emotional problems to. That type of environments feeds on it.

Scary Scary thing.

[Dmitri]

Also prostitution is a type of profession that keeps women down and does not promote self respect.

Not necessarily... Only to us rather puritanical Americans, since the bibal belt would rather our women wear birkas... Remember the Puritans came here to escape religious persecution because they were TOO STRICT and CLOSE MINDED according to European standards. Not because they were too "free"... Hell, Christmas was OUTLAWED in the Colonies!!!! Because it was not solemn enough....


It is a dangerous environment and now the government legalizes it.

This is one of teh reasons they legalized it... The overnment can now control, tax, regulate and protect the *workers*. One would think that they could actually unionize. It is dangerous HERE... For the exact reason that abortions would be dangerous if made illegal... No regulation...

[Eric McTavish]

It is a dangerous environment and now the government legalizes it.

This is one of teh reasons they legalized it... The overnment can now control, tax, regulate and protect the *workers*. One would think that they could actually unionize. It is dangerous HERE... For the exact reason that abortions would be dangerous if made illegal... No regulation...

Yup the Unions eve get the workers full Med, Dental (well med is socialized but I digress), vacations, pension plans etc... :shock:

[Mylilpinkpig]

This disturbs me because ( and I do agree that people have the right to work wherever they are pleased) What is the age that these women? Also prostitution is a type of profession that keeps women down and does not promote self respect. It is a dangerous environment and now the government legalizes it. I know that in different parts off the world prostitution is legal but how many are underage have drug problems and have emotional problems to. That type of environments feeds on it.

Scary Scary thing.
I think you are confusing legalized prostitution with child exploitation. I come from a country where prositution is legal but it is not legal for a child to be working as a prostitute. In fact legalizing it prevents underage girls from working there.

[Kae]

I don't have a problem with it at all. As long as it is regulated, fewere transmitted diseases occur, less child exploitation and less social disdain for those who work in the industry.

Kae

[Nevada]

Personally I agree with legalize it, tax it, keep it safe....there used to be brothels all over the U.S. ....several really large ones here in TX....it wasnt really until the early 1900's the heavey crackdowns on it started....especially around the time when booze became illegal...I have a wonderful brothel cookbook at home that talks about some of the more famous brothels in the US and recipes from the higher class ones....

[Lady Laurel]

So if it is legalized there is no child exploitation.I find that hard to believe. My syster is a Social Worker and she deals with childern ( and by children I am talking about 15-17 years olds) that are prostitues. Maybe I am wronge I hope it does help women in the long run. Give them a better environment to live in with 401k, etc....

But, there is also a darker side to alot off it. Alot of women become prostitues because of thier emotional problems and it just makes it worse. Not to mention the drug abuse etc...
I guess maybe I am a little nieve in my thinking but doesn't it seem that one things leads into another and alot of it is not good.
I may be wrong and I dont want to offend anyone. I had a friend that was a prostitue for a while ( did not know it at the time thought she worked in a bar) She had alot off problems before but it was worse when she finally stopped.
Anyway hopefully it will help the women in Germany. I just have doubts.

[Kae]

There is a big difference between becoming a prostitute when it is illegal than when it is legal. When working any illegal job you have NO regulation and nowhere or no one to turn to if some wrong happens. These women will have health benefits (access to mental as well as physical health benefits). The brothels will be subject to searches and to random drug testing. The "workers" will have to be registered and therefore their ages verified. There will alsways be child exploitation, but this will help and the European attitude toward sex and establishments that cater to sex is much different than ours is here.

Kae

[saphoenixsilver]

Also, getting into the sex industry is not always about having low self esteem, or a drug problem. Sometimes it's about putting food in the mouths and clothes on the backs of women's children because they cannot do it any other way. I think that it's wonderful that these women will have benifits, and will be able to ply their trade safely.

[Jessa]

Once a trade is made illegal, it goes underground and gets far more dangerous for all involved.

Think about the difference between getting liquor today, and during prohibition. Once alcohol was outlawed, organized crime got involved, and production of the product was often done in an unsafe manner. Assuming you could get your hands on the stuff, you ran serious health risks from the uncontrolled manner in wich it was produced, and you had to deal with career criminals to get it. Now that its legal, you go to a supermarket and buy a safe reliable product, and sales are restricted by age.

Prostitution and other recreational drugs both work the same way. When they are legal, they can be regulated. Even though they may be distasteful to some, it should be clear by now that banning these things doesn't stop people from doing them. The least we can do is reduce the halo-effect crimes that go with an underground trade.

[arianne]

I just wanted to say thank you to you all--I've got to give a five minute speech to try to get exempt from "Interpersonal Communications" class on Monday and have been searching for a good controversial topic. I hadn't even though of "Legalizing Prostitution" until I saw this thread...it's perfect!

So, thank you all :-)

[Galleywench]

Didn't Guiliani get himself in a little hot water about 8 years ago when he said something about phone sex operators being an ideal job for a SAHM?

All the fury that caused, I can only imagine what the screaming would have been like if this debate were in Albany..or DC!

[Dedeley]

Actually, I know a SAHM who did phone sex as a part time job. It worked for her. She was home with her kids, she could control when she got the calls, and it was safe.

I have a "legitimate" job, and quite frankly, I've been forced to do some things I don't particularly like to do to retain that job. I even used the words, "This makes me feel like a whore." Better to be an honest whore than a dishonest one, sometimes.

Or am I just venting about a particularly bad work situation?

[emalia]

Also, getting into the sex industry is not always about having low self esteem, or a drug problem. Sometimes it's about putting food in the mouths and clothes on the backs of women's children because they cannot do it any other way. I think that it's wonderful that these women will have benifits, and will be able to ply their trade safely.

That is incredibly correct.
For the most part is it about getting through School, or getting food. It rarely has anything to do with low self esteem or drug problems. I personally used to work at a live website, the girls there were clean for the most part, as were the guys. No more then you would find at your local strip club (actually less). Granted it wasn't a "SEX" shop. But it was still considered part of the industry.

[Dmitri]

So if it is legalized there is no child exploitation.I find that hard to believe. My syster is a Social Worker and she deals with childern ( and by children I am talking about 15-17 years olds) that are prostitues.

And these ARE exploited girls... Working in an illegal environment. But if you go to Nevada, where prostitution is legal, you will not find these girls in a legal Brothel. These are street kids with no where else to go that turn tricks because they have to. Not working women, going to work in a safe and regulated environment.

But, there is also a darker side to alot off it. Alot of women become prostitues because of thier emotional problems and it just makes it worse. Not to mention the drug abuse etc...I guess maybe I am a little nieve in my thinking but doesn't it seem that one things leads into another and alot of it is not good.
I may be wrong and I dont want to offend anyone. I had a friend that was a prostitue for a while ( did not know it at the time thought she worked in a bar) She had alot off problems before but it was worse when she finally stopped

Again, nobody thinks your naive, however I believe your letting your sister's job stories, and your friend's bad situation affect your ability to see that we are arguing two completely different issues.

[Lady Laurel]

Funny thing, on HBO the other night I watched a little about a brothel in Las Vegas ( I believe it was there) I had forgotten all about it. This was a debate between me and my husband last night. He made the point as yall were making it was a cleaner and safer environment to work in.
I remember watching the HBO show and they were talking about doctors (OB/GYN) that came in and checked out the girls. They were also allowed to keep more of the money they made. One brothel even belonged to a credit union in town.
SO I do agree that it is a safer place and someone is going to be a prostitute it would be better atmosphere for the women to be in.

Sounds kinda like a union to me.

[daBaroness]

First - let me say I'm not a prude - nor a repressed Puritan. I've always supported the idea of legalized and regulated prostitution for those women and men who truly want to work in that trade. I'm not putting a value judgement on their choice of professions. However - when people "choose" to prostitute themselves because it's the only way they can earn money and given a choice to work in a different profession that would provide them with equitable compensation - I still think it's a kind of slavery that demeans the prostitute.

It doesn't take a Puritanical prude to think of sex as the ultimate intimacy between two people - sacred in it's own rite as a demonstration of love, vulnerability and the closest thing to becoming one that two people can experience. Is it an outmoded notion - a fairytale in my own mind. Heck no - I've done my share of swinging from the chandeliers, playing with ropes and whips and endulging in sex just for the pure animal/physical desire of it. But for me - unless it reaches the levels of emotional, mental and spiritual connection mentioned above - it's just so much gooey in and out - meaningless mattress-thrashing that is no longer satisfying in all the ways I want and need to be satisfied. But I know these are my personal feelings and they may or may not be shared by others.

For me the true obscenity in anything is compromising one's beliefs, values and convictions and settling for something less - no matter what the reason. And I don't care who's doing the demanding or what the consequences for denying those demands might be. I gave up a job in high school as a waitress because the manager demanded that I remove my POW bracelet - even at 16 there was no way I was going to bend my convictions just to dip ice cream cones. I married a real jerk when I was 24 - for all the wrong reasons and mostly out of fear that I'd be an old maid - no one else would ever want me - even though I knew he wasn't the man I deserved or truly wanted. It lasted a year before I came to my senses and left. I overcame the feelings of guilt he tried to foist on me by knowing life with him would be nothing but pain and admitting I'd make a bad choice for all the wrong reasons.

If anyone - particularly the government told me I had to take a job in a brothel - even as a bookkeeper - or lose my unemployment benefits - it would be a simple choice to make. Even with children depending on me - I'd rather put my faith in my abilities and risk some hard times rather than working in a job or an environment I didn't want to be in. I'd rather clean someone's toilets or shovel shit than be told I have to take a job or do anything else I don't agree with or dislike.

If the German government - or any other government is so poorly managing it's business that it demands the prostitution of it's citizens - the fault and the responsibility lays in that government and in the citizens to demand something better. And gee, I thought Germany had united into one democratic country ... seems more like a socialist dictatorship to me.

dB

[Kae]

Germany is a united country with a huge unemployment rate! They desperately need to increase the jobs available on the market. Too many young people and older people are angry and using violence to voice that anger. If they can decrease the unemployment rate and therebye increase the government income, they can afford to re-establish many of the job training programs that had to be cut. And as it mentioned in the article, the government can endthe benefits but has not done so to anyone yet. I do kow of some people in this country that refuse to work jobs on principle but have no problem taking a welfare check. And we aren't talking about jobs in a "seedy" environment but ones that they deem "beneath" them. I agree that we should not be forced to work in a job that demeans us or puts us in a dangerous position, but I don't think anyone has the right to make themselves a burden on the state when there are jobs available.

My 2 cents.

Kae

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

here's another question for you - do you know if this is including the MEN who are available through those same employment banks? No offense, Eric, but I believe if prostitution is going to be made legal, accepted across an entire country, and allowed to take advantage of the employment *banks* to get their employees, why does it come across as just the women being involved???

Well, there is the small matter of supply and demand. The market demand for male prostitutes is practically infinitesimal compared to the demand for female prostitutes.

It should be readily obvious why. :)

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

However - when people "choose" to prostitute themselves because it's the only way they can earn money and given a choice to work in a different profession that would provide them with equitable compensation - I still think it's a kind of slavery that demeans the prostitute.

Some might argue that being forced to clean other people's toilets because it's the only way you can earn money is at least as demeaning, but there's no hue and cry to criminalize that.

I'm actually of two minds on the issue of the legalization of prostitution. On the one hand, I'm all for decriminalizing victimless behavior between consenting adults; on the other hand if it becomes legal and acceptable for women to charge money for sex, it'll become a lot harder for me to get it for free. :lol:

And there's the old, old joke:

Q: What's the difference between sex with a prostiute and sex with a regular woman?
A: When you pay for it, it costs a lot less. :)