Here we go again: "Very Hot Wenches"

[Myfanawy]

Was doing a Yahoo search, and this came up:

http://wenches.tribe.net/

They mention the Guild at the top of the page:

A site to show off all the beautiful wenches found at Renaissance Faires and Festivals. Post your favorite pics and perhaps meet a beautiful renwench. This site will also promote those women who are members of the "International Wenches Guild.". . . . on behalf of cleavage lovers everywhere. . . we give a sounding HUUUUZAHHHHHH!

Ummm....no. I still have to look through and see if I see any Guild pins, but you ladies might want to check it out for yourselves, as you'll be able to recognize far more Guild members that might be on the site than I would.
--M

[Myfanawy]

Yup, I see at least one Guild pin....so far.
http://www.tribe.net/template/pub%2CViewPhoto.vm/context/tribe?page=2&currentoffset=9&parentid=a299bf49-fd08-4b94-94a9-28d745fdd4c8&sortby&rows
(on the person just off-camera on the right)
--M

[Ysobelle]

They need to take that down NOW. There should be NO mention of the Guild there.

Is anyone a member of whatever the hell that site is? It looks like yet another MySpace kind of thing.

[RichardMacHugely]

I'm sorry, but having looked through the various galleries, I think you ladies might be over reacting a wee bit. This site isn't aiming to be exploitative. These shots weren't taken by voyeuristic perverts and cleavage freaks, they appear to have been taken by groups of friends documenting their faire memories together. Many of these shots are captioned with names, etc., and most of them are just people, or groups of people, enjoying a day at faire. Only a few of them are really what I would think of as boob shots.

[Drea Beth]

I see a lot of folks I know either as aquaintence or by them posting in various places. A bunch of folks from MD, and a bunch from Washington's faire. While I agree with Nikki that the mention of the guild is a big old no-no and needs to be taken care of, the content of the site has a lot of really gorgeous pictures, a lot of which are not (imho) exploitive in the least. In fact, many contain a caption telling who's in the picture and where they're from and who took them. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think we need to go ballistic over ever picture of a woman in garb on the net. Then again, I guess that is the decision of the folks in the pictures.

[Alianne]

The photo gallery really isn't all that bad -- but they really have no right to bill the Guild at all.

At least, we should ask them to take the mention of the guild down in the text.

[Eric McTavish]

Well there's a tread asking how many are "registered" wenches
so far #'s 2066, 25, and another going by the name "Carlene" from NYRF

It dosent look to me like a "bad" site just one promoting wenches in general I havent seen anything reall "naughty" per-say. But I'll keep looking...its a scarifice Im willing to make for you ladies... :shock:

[Magdalene]

I'm going to have to agree on the point that there's not much wrong with these pictures....they seem to be (mostly) of friends and acquaintances who willingly posed. The ones where they don't know them are pretty tasteful.

(The Xena Warrior Princess one was uncanny--for a moment I thought it was Lucy Lawless herself.)

As for the guild mention....I'm going to hazard a guess and say that some of the ladies they took their pictures of *are* in the guild, and the guys didn't think mentioning that would be an issue. Plus, I'm guessing some of the ladies in the photos know the guild is being mentioned, and they didn't think it was an issue either.

My two cents.

[Eric McTavish]

(The Xena Warrior Princess one was uncanny--for a moment I thought it was Lucy Lawless herself.)

It is! She's a fan who has changed her name and had plastic surgery to alter her look closer to Lucy... :shock: Scary eh?

[I'Cin]

I know a couple of people who show up in the "hot wenches" gallery. And at least one of them is a guild member (but her pin isn't visible). I just emailed her to ask if she knew it was there (mostly b/c she's a friend of mine and I hope she'd do the same for me). Apparently BlackFox, who is a photographer and frequents MD, is a member of that group and some of the pics were his.

Oh, he's also the group moderator . . . .

I'Cin

[Lady Sarah]

After taking a quick run through them and glancing at the thumbnails, I see nothing wrong with these photos. I saw two of Bonnie Strangeways and they were very tasteful. I'll be emailing her, of course, and asking if she knew about them - as well as the credit given to her group Thryce Wycked Wenches in one of the photos.

However, I would have to agree that mention of the Guild needs to be removed.

[WenchLadyKate]

I thought this was nice. I even saw a thread where someone asked what contitutes a HOTT wench. This was one of the answers, "My lady all wenches are Hot,for beauty is in the eye of the beholder .All wenches have something to give a man or a women,It is just up to us to see it."

And, maybe I'm not savvy enough to know, but they're not saying anything negative about the guild in any way, and in my eyes, they're sort of spreading the word. Why do they need to take it away?

And Carlene from NYRF is a very active member of the IWG, but not so much on the boards. She usually helps organize our walks on site. Also came up with (I think) the Wench Olympics thing that we did a few years back. Great lady. Great Wench.

[Ysobelle]

That's fine, but my point is it mentions the Guild and being all about the cleavage. That's my problem with it. Too many people already think the Guild itself is all about the cleavage and nothing else, and the Wenches at my show already have enough problems with creeps who live that motto, y'know?

If someone knows the moderator, could you ask him nicely to take mention of the Guild off there?

[Madmage]

Is anyone a member of whatever the hell that site is?

I am a member of tribe.net.

[Eric McTavish]

Is anyone a member of whatever the hell that site is?

I am a member of tribe.net.


Im a tribe member as well

[RichardMacHugely]

If someone knows the moderator, could you ask him nicely to take mention of the Guild off there?

I'm not sure what the legal basis of that request would be. The person who makes reference to the Guild appears to be an IWG Member, but even if s/he wasn't a member, the manner in which the Guild's name is referenced would seem to fall squarely under the "fair use" sections of intellectual property law.

[Alianne]

If someone knows the moderator, could you ask him nicely to take mention of the Guild off there?

I'm not sure what the legal basis of that request would be. The person who makes reference to the Guild appears to be an IWG Member, but even if s/he wasn't a member, the manner in which the Guild's name is referenced would seem to fall squarely under the "fair use" sections of intellectual property law.

AFAIK, Lars holds the copyright and trademarks on the name and logo. They'd have to ask his permission to use it in the way they're using it -- to promote the list/website.

The way they have their main page gives the impression that the Guild sanctions it, and it obviously doesn't.

[RichardMacHugely]

I had never heard of the Tribe before, but after having the site brought to my attention by this thread, I've joined up.

[Donnaccia]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think we need to go ballistic over ever picture of a woman in garb on the net.

*enter she of the unpopular opinion*

No, it's not just you.

And people wonder why I don't post...christ on a crutch. :roll:

Going hysterical over every fricking snapshot of a girl in garb is truly being an alarmist. Posting "OMG!!!!11!! MORE PICS OF WENCHES ON THE INTERNET! AAAAH WE SHOULD RUN AROUND WITH OUR ARMS FLAILING IN THE AIR IN RAGE!!!!!!11!!!!11!!!" clearly doesnt help.

Here's the bottom line as I see it: We go to Faire. We wear things that emphasize cleavage, some more than others, clearly. Those pics looked like they were sent in by the actual person that took them. If you all are THAT worried, either stop posing for pictures, or quit wearing garb.

Since neither of those two things are likely to happen, let's pull ourselves together and consider it an occupational hazard, hmmm?

[WenchLadyKate]

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

EDIT: I accidentally clicked submit instead of preview. oops... :oops:

Anyways, She's right. Especially since it seems everybody in the world (except me of course) has a camera phone. My over the top extreme opinion? If you don't want to be seen, stay in the house. Horny guys are always going to like cleavage.

Not everyone posts these pictures on the web either. I mean, I could post my collection of pictures of people in really bad outfits on the net if I wanted to, but, IMHO, that would be wrong. Some people don't see it that way. Too bad though.

Okay, I know that was all over the place, I'm not the best at expressing myself with words. But, you know what I mean. :-) Love you all, even though some of you are gonna hate me now. :)

[Jessa]

So true! I won't wear things in public that I don't want strangers seeing me in.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think we need to go ballistic over ever picture of a woman in garb on the net.

*enter she of the unpopular opinion*

No, it's not just you.

And people wonder why I don't post...christ on a crutch. :roll:

Going hysterical over every fricking snapshot of a girl in garb is truly being an alarmist. Posting "OMG!!!!11!! MORE PICS OF WENCHES ON THE INTERNET! AAAAH WE SHOULD RUN AROUND WITH OUR ARMS FLAILING IN THE AIR IN RAGE!!!!!!11!!!!11!!!" clearly doesnt help.

Here's the bottom line as I see it: We go to Faire. We wear things that emphasize cleavage, some more than others, clearly. Those pics looked like they were sent in by the actual person that took them. If you all are THAT worried, either stop posing for pictures, or quit wearing garb.

Since neither of those two things are likely to happen, let's pull ourselves together and consider it an occupational hazard, hmmm?

[I'Cin]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think we need to go ballistic over ever picture of a woman in garb on the net.

*enter she of the unpopular opinion*

No, it's not just you.

And people wonder why I don't post...christ on a crutch. :roll:

Going hysterical over every fricking snapshot of a girl in garb is truly being an alarmist. Posting "OMG!!!!11!! MORE PICS OF WENCHES ON THE INTERNET! AAAAH WE SHOULD RUN AROUND WITH OUR ARMS FLAILING IN THE AIR IN RAGE!!!!!!11!!!!11!!!" clearly doesnt help.

Here's the bottom line as I see it: We go to Faire. We wear things that emphasize cleavage, some more than others, clearly. Those pics looked like they were sent in by the actual person that took them. If you all are THAT worried, either stop posing for pictures, or quit wearing garb.

Since neither of those two things are likely to happen, let's pull ourselves together and consider it an occupational hazard, hmmm?

1. No one was hysterical. Some concern showed? Yes, based on the porn sites that WERE using unauthorized photos for making money. The only one that seems to be over-reacting is you. In fact, no one really mentioned the photos themselves EXCEPT to say they were rather nice and to point out where the IWG pins might be visible.

2. Being sent in by the "actual person who took them" is not necessarily the same as being okay with the person in the picture.

3. The main concern is the use of the IWG. It makes it sound like our members are trolling for men ("Post your favorite pics and perhaps meet a beautiful renwench.) especially when followed with: "This site will also promote those women who are members of the "International Wenches Guild.. . . ." Promote us? If he means that they're going to talk about all of the charity fundraising we do, and what a great group of women both individually and as a whole we are, fine. But it certainly sounds more like pimping us out (at least to me) when coupled with "on behalf of cleavage lovers everywhere ...". There is a lot more to the IWG than that, and I think most of us work very hard to get that point across, not just that we like having cleavage.

4. I seldom pose for pictures, and the ones I do are never (I believe) "in your face" cleavage shots. And if they are, they were made by someone I know who would hopefully ask before posting them. For those who want to pose like that - great. Go for it. But what I'm wearing should never get my picture any place I haven't authorized. I've also never found my pic on a site that I didn't know it would be there.

I'Cin

[Ysobelle]

Honest to G-d, I don't care about the photos on that particular site. They're pretty? Woot! More power to 'em! But the intro says, essentially, "IWG and BOOBS!"

I'm sure the moderator means well. I'm sure he's a nifty guy. But we run into so many people on so many sites who make no distinction between Wench and whore that we just have to be super-careful. I can handle a guy getting stupid with me, but some of the women in my Local would be completely freaked out, and then I'd have to kill someone.

And that'd suck.

[Sandina]

I just joined myself- under the name Gwenhwyvar20!
Sandina
IWG 2867

[Myfanawy]

Honest to G-d, I don't care about the photos on that particular site. They're pretty? Woot! More power to 'em! But the intro says, essentially, "IWG and BOOBS!"

I'm sure the moderator means well. I'm sure he's a nifty guy. But we run into so many people on so many sites who make no distinction between Wench and whore that we just have to be super-careful. I can handle a guy getting stupid with me, but some of the women in my Local would be completely freaked out, and then I'd have to kill someone.

And that'd suck.

I agree with all that's been said--the pictures are fine, it was just the use of the IWG name that concerned me, that I wanted to make known here. This is nowhere close to the level of the RenFestCleavage site.
--M

[RichardMacHugely]

AFAIK, Lars holds the copyright and trademarks on the name and logo. They'd have to ask his permission to use it in the way they're using it -- to promote the list/website.

The way they have their main page gives the impression that the Guild sanctions it, and it obviously doesn't.

I disagree. First of all, this is not on the Tribe's main page, it is on the personal page of one of the tribe's members. The "Tribe" is an online community of internet users, each of whom stakes out their own personal space for the purpose of sharing information about themselves, their interests, hobbies, etc. The member who mentioned the IWG in their personal section did so as a way of telling other members of the Tribe about herself, NOT as a way of promoting the Tribe website in general. This is exactly the sort of utilization of copywrited or trademarked material that is allowed under "fair use".

[Drea Beth]

I disagree. First of all, this is not on the Tribe's main page, it is on the personal page of one of the tribe's members. The "Tribe" is an online community of internet users, each of whom stakes out their own personal space for the purpose of sharing information about themselves, their interests, hobbies, etc. The member who mentioned the IWG in their personal section did so as a way of telling other members of the Tribe about herself, NOT as a way of promoting the Tribe website in general. This is exactly the sort of utilization of copywrited or trademarked material that is allowed under "fair use".

For reference:

A site to show off all the beautiful wenches found at Renaissance Faires and Festivals. Post your favorite pics and perhaps meet a beautiful renwench. This site will also promote those women who are members of the "International Wenches Guild.". . . . on behalf of cleavage lovers everywhere. . . we give a sounding HUUUUZAHHHHHH!

If a member of the guild wants to mention her membership in a personal page that's one thing. Heck, I think there's probably a lot of us who have put that information in a profile or the like. But... as shown in the blurb above, the guild is mentioned in the group's main page, and from all I can see, the group was not started by a member of the guild, so it's not an "I'm a member" kind of thing.

Like I said before, while I have no problem with the group and the photo's posted, I'm just thinking that the guild and all its members might not want to be "promoted". Perhaps if he wants to mention the guild, he should have said "some of the women pictured here are members of the IWG" or similar, not that the site was to "promote those women who are members".

Just curious... has anyone in authority approached Mr. Black Foxe?

Just my .02.

[Psyche]

I know a couple of people who show up in the "hot wenches" gallery. And at least one of them is a guild member (but her pin isn't visible). I just emailed her to ask if she knew it was there (mostly b/c she's a friend of mine and I hope she'd do the same for me). Apparently BlackFox, who is a photographer and frequents MD, is a member of that group and some of the pics were his.

Oh, he's also the group moderator . . . .

I'Cin

Just curious... has anyone in authority approached Mr. Black Foxe?
Not yet, as far as I know. BTW, Sir Black Fox (Steve Kimball) IS a Guild member. Merc and Rogue (as per pins on his garb) and Privateer as far as I know, seeing as how he is First Mate of the Polly Dodger.

I do find it peculiar that his pictures and ones he has taken showed up on the Tribe site as well as the Yahoo groups. As a matter of fact, the linked picture was the 'opening' picture of the Yahoo site, and is at the Tribe site.

http://homepage.mac.com/blackfoxofde/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2004-10-03%2015.50.09%20-0700/Image-C23CB212158D11D9.jpg

[Psyche]

His website address for further pictures.
http://www.blackfoxdesigns.com/

[daBaroness]

Simma down now, simma down!

As has been said - when you're out in public in garb, particularly good garb - you're probably going to have your picture taken. Some people will ask - and again, if the garb is good, sometimes they'll ask if they can pose with you while a spouse or parent or whomever snaps the pic. How you pose those kinds of pictures is completely up to your discretion. And refusing is also your choice. Most of those pics are for personal remembrances of a patron's day at faire.

Some people won't ask - especially if they think you're a cast member or otherwise affiliated with the festival - and if you're in garb, chances are they'll put you in that category whether or not it's true. In some ways though, if you're into festival enough to wear garb, you ARE part of the festival. I mean, c'mon, isn't that why you garb up, to be more a part of the experience?!

If you don't want to have a picture snapped of you in a compromising position/situation, then my advice is to not put yourself into such a situation that if captured on film, might cause you embarrassment or worse. And if you're so sensitive that the mere idea of your image captured digitally or on film by a stranger causes you an aneurism, then don't wear garb. We don't get to select who looks at us, admires us, takes a picture of us or ignores us when we're in public and drawing attention to ourselves by being in garb or otherwise.

As for copyright infringement - sorry folks - Lars may indeed hold a U.S. government registered copyright on the names and logos - but unless the copy and graphics are being used to: (1) generate revenue by illegal use of the intellectual property - for example, someone starts a Web site to sell T-shirts and other merchandise using the Lundegaard-copyrighted names/images, but they are not in any way connected with Lars and Lars has not licensed, nor given permission for use of his property. Then legal action can be taken - it's called copyright infringement.

(2) Someone other than Lars (without his consent or permission) uses his material or images to promote, sanction or otherwise endorse something of their own for the sake of some sort of personal (monetary or other) gain. Example: Someone makes garb and promotes it online and in print advertisements saying something like, "Offical garb of the International Brotherhood of Rogues, Scoundrels and Cads" when Lars has never made such an endorsement - that's copyright infringement. But, if in the same situation the wording is something like, "Our garb is worn by discerning wenches everywhere," or "Our garb is the first choice of many members of the International Wenches Guild," there is no copyright infringement. Why? Because the word wench (alone) is not and cannot be copyrighted - just like Donald Trump couldn't copyright "You're fired!" And in the second example, the promotion does not suggest endorsement by the guild as a whole or by Lars, it simply states that some members of the guild like and wear this garb as their first choice.

In the situation of the tribe.net usage - it's not copyright infringement because the owner of the web page isn't suggesting an endorsement of something he's selling. In reality - he's actually promoting the IWG - even if some of our numbers don't particularly like the way he's gone about it. In which case, unless your image is on his web page and you don't want it there and he's refused to remove it - you'll just have to "wench up" and move on.

Technically, if someone is going to post your image or use your image in print, they should get your signed approval. But generally, unless the image is being used for non-profit purposes, doesn't violate pornography laws or is removed at the request of the person in the picture - no court or law enforcement agency is really going to spend their resources chasing down someone because they posted pictures of their trip to festival.

Finally, while I don't at all mind patrons taking pictures of me (it's actually part of the job), I'm still in control of my image in terms of the garb I wear, how much I show in the normal wearing of that garb and how I conduct myself when at faire. No one is going to catch me adjusting my fluffage or my bloomers if I don't want them to. Likewise, when I pose for pictures - sometimes we will give someone the full frontal bodice shot - generally friends or acquaintances, or for a loyal fan of our show - and we usually camp it up.

I've often posted my feelings about people in garb whose amount of heaveage is simple repugnant to me, or the antics of garbed patrons or faire participants who obviously have no self respect or a mirror in their possession. But since I have no control over them - I just have to let go of being disgusted by them because they're doing something *I* wouldn't do.

Well, that's my 25 cents worth ... make that 75-cents worth! :lol:

[Psyche]

No simmering from me. *shrugs*

I do just have to say this. One would hope a Guild member would be a cut above the rest... but with the Top Heavy incident (and there was definitely a Rogue involved with that) and with other incidents including this recent one... some have been found wanting.

Yes, I said "hope". And I am sorely disappointed.

[Myfanawy]

The "Top Heavy Incident"?
--M

[lauradake]

I think we all know that not all guild members are people that we want to be associated with. It's to be expected when you have organizations that number in the thousands - there are bound to be some apples you just don't jive with.

Personally, when I'm on-site at a faire, I behave in a manner that I would never be ashamed to have caputred on film or video. Because, frankly, you never know who is watching. It could be a boss, a co-worker, your pastor or your mom. Personally, I have the added "bonus" (I use that loosely *grin*) of running a faire-related business - so I'm always "on", so to speak. I am continuously amazed at how many pure strangers walk up to me at faire and ask if I'm "Greycat".

Simple solution: have fun, and never do anything you'd be ashamed to admit to doing. In doing this, you will make the guild look good - and show the world that it's not just about boobs-in-the-face.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Myfanawy]

Hear hear! I swear, you ladies in the Local 96 have it so together. While getting ourselves organized out here in AZ, you Carolina gals set a really great standard for us. Well put, Laura.
:grouphug:

[Ysobelle]

I asked Lars about this briefly amidst the madness at the Renaissance Beach faire. He doesn't mind people using the name if it's tasteful. And it seems to be, this time. What I think it's going to come down to in the end is this: if you see your photo used, and you're unhappy about that, ask nicely that it be removed. I have a feeling it will be. If it isn't, write Yahoo or Tribe. If THAT doesn't work, well...we'll think of something. But I don't forsee that many problems in this case.

And the "Top-Heavy Incident," for those of you who weren't here then or don't remember, is when photos of women at faire-- some of them Wenches-- were posted on a site called TopHeavy.com. It was obvious that many of them didn't know they were being photographed, and the photographer chose to shoot them when they were leaning over, or just poorly dressed. It was a soft-core porn/fetish site-- complete with banner adds of "Blow-Job Grannies!", which looked every bit as hard-core nasty as you'd think. The photos seemed to have been taken at RPFS and NYRF, and one of the photographers was a Rogue. We had to get REC's lawyers involved, and the photos were eventually taken down. Sadly, many of them have resurfaced on a similar site. It's baed in Poland, however, and there's nothing we can do about it. This is why many of us are EXTREMELY cautious when a site pops up promising "Wenches with CLEAVAGE!"

The depressing lesson from all this? "If you flaunt them, the assholes will come." So to speak.