A Christian's musings regarding Grace's thread

[Gwenyver Etaine]

It's never a good sign to see a lengthy post start with a preface, but I feel I need to place one in this instance. Please know, as you read this post, that I am not pointing fingers, and I am not directing my remarks to any specific individuals. This post derived more from a tone I perceived. Yes, this point is MY perception. It may be biased, skewed, erroneous or just plain ignorant, but I feel strongly that it is something I must express.

As I read Grace's thread, I was witness to many things. I saw concerned friends support someone who was in emotional and spiritual pain. I applaud you all for that outpouring of empathy.

I also saw a great deal of disparaging remarks toward Christians. Some were more directive, in that theirs targeted specific sectors of belief. And, I'll be the first to admit that I can understand the difficulty Fundamentalist present. However, a debate of Fundamentalism isn't my purpose. The attitude of intolerance towards a Christian following their beliefs, quite frankly, astounds me. I admit to being fairly new to the forum, but my forays into the Wicca/Religion threads have, in the past, been witness to an air of mutual respect and tolerance for ALL beliefs systems, no matter how distasteful we personally find them. This is very appealing to me, as I enjoy the opportunity to discover the beliefs of others.

Much of what I witnessed in Grace's thread wasn't tolerance. Some of it was downright mean-spirited. If I had posted on this board disparaging remarks about a Wiccan in my family, I would have been immediately flamed for being intolerant.

Much can be said about the persecution of many belief systems at the hands of Christianity, and much of that would be correct. I don't believe that gives one the right to cry 'foul' and spew vitriol in response. Violence (even verbal) breeds violence. Tolerance breeds tolerance.

Having said this, I would like to close with the thought that this experience has taught me much about my own beliefs and convictions as I prepared this post. I wish all of you much happiness and peace in your chosen beliefs. I hope to learn much more from you all.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and consider my position.


******

As a result of this, I have decided to start a thread in the blog section about my own spiritual journey. Please feel free to visit, post, or ignore. I only ask that if you did read, please come with an open mind.

[Lady Laurel]

I have to say I agree with you. I myself am a Christian and that is the reason I did not post on her thoughts. I feel for her I really do but there sometimes can be just too much anamosity toward Christians in a post and I will not respond at all.
I have been raised in a fundemental Christian Church and tolerance is something that you have to learn as you study different religions and such. We are entitled to our God. We just have to search out the God that we are looking for and spirituality is a very personal and emotional thing to people that is the reason I just sometims stay away.
Thank you for you candor. I will be reading your blog from time to time.

[Magdalene]

I also saw a great deal of disparaging remarks toward Christians. Some were more directive, in that theirs targeted specific sectors of belief. And, I'll be the first to admit that I can understand the difficulty Fundamentalist present. However, a debate of Fundamentalism isn't my purpose. The attitude of intolerance towards a Christian following their beliefs, quite frankly, astounds me. I admit to being fairly new to the forum, but my forays into the Wicca/Religion threads have, in the past, been witness to an air of mutual respect and tolerance for ALL beliefs systems, no matter how distasteful we personally find them. This is very appealing to me, as I enjoy the opportunity to discover the beliefs of others.

Much of what I witnessed in Grace's thread wasn't tolerance. Some of it was downright mean-spirited. If I had posted on this board disparaging remarks about a Wiccan in my family, I would have been immediately flamed for being intolerant.

I've noticed this for a long time myself. There are some on this board who preach tolerance out of one corner of their mouths, but bash Christianity out of the other. Or we get called 'sheep' because we chose to follow an organized religion.

There are a lot of times that I feel on this board, religious tolerance only counts for those who are pagans.

[Sandina]

I am Cathalic, I agree with the ladies whole heartedly, we do seem to get bashed alot here. But the funny thing is as soon as someone starts knocking Pagans & Wiccans in my mundane life- which has been alot lately I defend them.!
This is off topic but does anyone notice the phrase MERRY CHRISTMAS is not said anymore?????????????
SAY IT LOUD! MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sandina
IWG #2867
Ren Rat

[Ysobelle]

I was sympathetic, and I spoke up. And I'm not Wiccan.

I have no problem with Christians. I even get along well with born-again Christians, who are a bit more zealous than some. What irritates me no end is the particular brand of religious zealot who feels it's their business to ram their beliefs down the throats of anyone not already in their own theological circle. I firmly believe the dialogue between a soul and its creator is the most personal discussion of all, and no one else has any kind of business intruding upon it. I don't care if said intruder is Christian, Wiccan, Jain, Zoroastian, Buddhist, or a follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. NFL-level Evangelism is always going to be distasteful to me.

[Lady Sarah]

I'm not a religious person by any means. I've tried to follow a few forms of organized religion and it's just not my thing. I'm happier being solitary and being true to what I feel is the right path.

Intolerance of those different from Christianity pisses me off to no end. And vice-versa as well, although perhaps not as much as the previous. Gwen, please understand what I'm about to say, as it's meant as an explanation of how I see some things said and expressed. A lot of the vitriol comes from experience of the persecution, bias, prejudice and anger of the Christians against the Wiccan/Pagan faith. It's generally seen as witchcraft, evil, satanic and sinful. A good deal of the prejudice against Wicca and Paganism comes from lack of knowledge, understand and willingness to learn. What is the saying? We fear what we do not understand. Fear breeds hate... and once you've been on the receiving end of such religious... uhm, well for lack of a better word, persescution, you're really gunshy about everything religious.

Is that an excuse? Hell no. Understanding is a two way street. I get a giggle everytime I hear a quip from my father about Christianity. It's a baby religion compared to others and it lived side by side in Rome with the pantheistic society. The pagan Romans were more than accepting of Christianity's place in their city and did not turn them aside. But the Christians of Rome wouldn't hear it, they wanted the controversy, the rift and they found ways to feel persecuted. Then, one day they were the ones persecuting the non-Christians and one by one the pagans converted. Basic point of the story is that 90% of the world's religions are accepting of everything and everyone else's religion - except Christianity. Yes, even Islam accepts that there are other religions. None of the others in the world prosthelithizes (sp?) the way the Christians do. Is it wrong? eh, rocky ground there. I personally feel that one's religion is a private matter and no one else's business - just as what I believe in and practice is no one's but my own and I would rather turn traitor to the United States than project my own beliefs onto anyone else.

Bless those who are willing to bend a little and have the openness of the mind to see that just because someone does not follow your God and your beliefs, it doesn't mean that they are the minion of evil or that what they believe in is automatically wrong. Bless those who are willing to open their mind and their hearts to learn - even if it's just a cursory surface learning.

Tolerance is a good thing - from BOTH sides.

[Gwenyver Etaine]

What irritates me no end is the particular brand of religious zealot who feels it's their business to ram their beliefs down the throats of anyone not already in their own theological circle.

I totally agree with you on this position. And, personally, I don't believe that is the way it was/is intended for Christians. I know many who would argue differently, but I've never seen that expectation of forcible conversion shown in the Bible. But, that's just me.

Thank you to everyone who has replied. Your comments are appreciated.

[Nimue]

Merry Chrismahanukwaanzakah!

And a blessed Yule.

I am an eclectic Pagan of Jewish heritage (A Jewitch! Har, har.) I consider myself, and aspire to be, a tolerant person who respects the spirituality of others. I agree with Yso 100%. Live and let live...I just hate the way, historically, religion has been a divisive force that leads people to kill each other in the name of some higher power. Spirituality is beautiful, the intolerance often associated with it is one of the ugliest things I know. However, unfortunately, I think humans are apt to draw lines and fight over them, whether they be lines of race, class, or religion. We draw lines to break our perceptions into smaller chunks, in order to be able to *think* we comprehend reality, which is really too big to wrap our limited minds around. It is sad, but I think it is the case...I just hope that one day our infant race learns to accept the whole of reality without creating "sides" and choosing them in order to forge our identities.

[Cyranno DeBoberac]

I've posted this before, but it's directly on point:

Back when I was in college, I knew a girl who was truly remarkable. You
would have been hard-pressed to find a sweeter, kinder more caring or
gentle girl than her. One day I found her sobbing uncontrollably because
someone whom she considered a friend had decided to share with her his
personal beliefs about religion and present them as absolute truths.

Now, she wasn't crying because he told her she was going to hell, no,
such petty selfishness was beneath her. She was an emotional wreck
because this man, this "friend", this Christian took it upon himself to
inform her that her parents, decent hard-working people who raised
an exceptional daughter, were destined to spend their afterlives
burning in eternal hellfire for no other reason than having to audacity to
not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior.

So ask me again why I hold christianity in such contempt.

Words mean things. "Religious tolerance" is a very specific concept. It's about respecting the rights of others to hold what ever religious beliefs they choose to. It's is not about staying silent when others try to meddle with your beliefs, and it's certainly not about tolerating other religions' penchant for being actively intolerant of your own beliefs.

Much can be said about the persecution of many belief systems at the hands of Christianity, and much of that would be correct. I don't believe that gives one the right to cry 'foul' and spew vitriol in response.

What then, pray tell, do you feel is an appropriate response to persecution??? I'd imagine that followers of all the other religions desperately long for the day when the worst thing they have to fear is mere vitriol.

Personally, I've no use for any religion, and I hold all of them in general disdain. But I don't begrudge anyone their right to believe in fairy tales or have imaginary friends. I do, however, object when their beliefs compel them to interfere with my life, be it through proselytization, legislation or intimidation.

No pagan has ever told me I'm going to hell. No wiccan as ever told me that their beliefs were the absolute truth as spoken from on high. No jew has ever told me that I was horribly misguided in my beliefs, no buddhist has ever told me that I shouldn't be allowed to practice birth-control. No muslim has ever told me the science in my school books should be replaced with philosophy. Christians have told me all of those things, so if it seems to you that christians recieve a disproportionately high level of my ire, you're being perceptive, but if you claim to not understand why that is, you're being disingenuous.

[Sandina]

Lady Sarah, I understand you completely. I do not force my views down anyone's throat.
I have a friend that is Pagan and I have tried to learn more about it. I try to get people to understand paganism, alot of people have strange ideas. But the ladies are correct, Christians do get bashed alot here.
Sandina
IWG #2867
Ren Rat